Black Widow Beta Testers Needed

**clark17** · **03-28-09, 01:31 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Sherwin Williams has several stores in Ottawa. [/URL].

I guess you are right....

Anyways I should be able to sent/receive PMs now...

TIA

**mechman** · **03-28-09, 06:55 PM**

Anyone else want to try out our latest N8 offering?

Close up of the reflective particles:

Next to my Black Widow Screen:

**bidzer** · **03-30-09, 01:14 PM**

Guys,

I would love to beta test this. I've got a 96" diag.

Thanks,
B

**mechman** · **03-30-09, 02:53 PM**

Quote:

bidzer wrote:

Guys,

I would love to beta test this. I've got a 96" diag.

Thanks,
B

PM sent.

**doug goldberg** · **03-31-09, 09:16 AM**

I'd be interested as I'm just getting ready to fab a screen for my 6500. I've been looking for a mix that is not as dark as some of the grays I have seen but still helps blacks a little. I have a sprayer also. I was planning on using the thrifty white from HD as a base.

**dradius** · **03-31-09, 10:11 AM**

please PM me info about testing this as well. i currently use a poly/pearl mix but will be rebuilding my screen and thinking about trying something else. Thank you.

edit: i use a low lumen diy projector. i'm not sure if these two will play nice together or not ?

**mechman** · **03-31-09, 11:11 AM**

Jason,

How low lumen are we talking? If you're looking for something around N9 we already have Cream & Sugar. If you want something darker let us know.

**mechman** · **03-31-09, 06:28 PM**

N8.5 is getting closer.... RGB of 217 217 217

**doug goldberg** · **04-01-09, 10:28 AM**

I'll give it a go...

**clark17** · **04-01-09, 01:02 PM**

Quote:

Harpmaker wrote:

All that matters is that the base paint used for BW is the color of PPG Bermuda Beige; many different brands of paint have been used to make BW. We have found that enamel paints make the best mix. Home Depot should be able to color-match "PPG Bermuda Beige #427-2" using their computer. We recommend Behr #1850 flat latex enamel. If for some reason your store can't match the color by name, use the tint formula below. It is from another Canadian.

1 Quart Behr #1850
Perm Yellow 0 3 0
Brown Oxide 0 4 0
Exterior Red 0 1 1

I don't want to confuse anyone but today I went to my local HD (in Canada) and the formula looks different from the above (it is taken from the label they gave me)

Behr
Prem Plus Int Flat Enamel
CF PPG Bermuda Beige (427-2)
Ultra Pure White (1850/2 1850)
Quart
F RED OXIDE 0 1 1
C YELLOW OXID 0 2 1
B LAMP BLACK 0 1 1

**mechman** · **04-01-09, 03:02 PM**

Martin,

There's actually more ways than one for the paint computer to arrive at it's final color. Several variables determine the outcome - base and available tints mainly. While the formula is different, the color is more than likely the same.

How did we get into a discussion of Bermuda Beige here in the Cream & Sugar thread?

**Harpmaker** · **04-01-09, 03:31 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Martin,

There's actually more ways than one for the paint computer to arrive at it's final color. Several variables determine the outcome - base and available tints mainly. While the formula is different, the color is more than likely the same.

How did we get into a discussion of Bermuda Beige here in the Cream & Sugar thread?

Because of Scorpion.

After Martin has a chance to read your post, the relevant portions can be moved to the BW thread.

I've been thinking about this a bit and have come to the conclusion that Martin's formula may well indeed be a match for BB. The formula I quoted him was from a sample Tiddler sent me that was made up using Behr 4850 which is an exterior version of 1850. The tints HD used in the exterior paint may have been different than the ones the computer told them to use in an interior paint.

**clark17** · **04-01-09, 04:08 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Martin,

There's actually more ways than one for the paint computer to arrive at it's final color. Several variables determine the outcome - base and available tints mainly. While the formula is different, the color is more than likely the same.

How did we get into a discussion of Bermuda Beige here in the Cream & Sugar thread?

Very true indeed... as for talking about it, as Harp mentioned it is all related to Scorpion and it should be move to that thread...

Quote:

Harpmaker wrote:

Because of Scorpion.

After Martin has a chance to read your post, the relevant portions can be moved to the BW thread.

I've been thinking about this a bit and have come to the conclusion that Martin's formula may well indeed be a match for BB. The formula I quoted him was from a sample Tiddler sent me that was made up using Behr 4850 which is an exterior version of 1850. The tints HD used in the exterior paint may have been different than the ones the computer told them to use in an interior paint.

Thank you explaining the situation, actually I thought of that and computer gave the same formula for 4850.

. At the end like Mech said, different mixtures sometimes = same results (at least in theory

)

**clark17** · **04-02-09, 12:22 AM**

Excellent job guys

So far at least on a piece of cardboard Scorpion N8 looks very promising, and it seems like a very good choice for people who feel BW is too dark and C&S is too birght....

If someone is wondering how does it look like, I took some pictures, which should give you 'some' idea how Scorpion N8 looks comparing to S&C#2 and BW. I'll send some samples to developers, so they will be able to tell us if I prepared the mixtures properly...

I cannot wait to try the sample board with 3 paints on it using my PJ (HD65)

For left to right you can see (S&C#2, BW and Scropion N8)

**clark17** · **04-03-09, 12:01 AM**

The cardboard with C&S#2 | BW - CIL/AAA-F 4:1 | SCORPION N8 (from left to right) in action.

The images were projected onto my off white drywall in living room (my basement is still in progress

). My PJ is HD65 (I love the little guy) and I was using el cheapo Philips up converting DVD SD set to 1080P.
Once again this test is very inaccurate and invalid, as our brain/eyes tend and most likely will always pick blackest blacks and whitest white off the image. As a result I believe the only TRUE/VALID test would be to use screen fully painted with one color, so please look at my pictures with a grain of salt

Tomorrow morning I'll send my samples to developers, so hopefully they will comment how accurate or off my mixtures are...

Overall I'm very pleased with Scorpion N8

I hope I won't get in trouble for posting so many pictures....

**mechman** · **04-09-09, 06:26 PM**

Martin,

I received your sample(s) yesterday. I should have spectro readings a little later tonight. Right now I'm knee deep in screen material readings.

**clark17** · **04-09-09, 07:54 PM**

Harpmaker got his samples as well, I hope the samples will help you guys

Once you get to them (one day

), plz send me your readings. I would like to find out how close/off I was with the mixture....

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Martin,
I received your sample(s) yesterday. I should have spectro readings a little later tonight. Right now I'm knee deep in screen material readings.

**mechman** · **04-09-09, 09:03 PM**

Well you had three unmarked samples...

The med gray is

201 200 199 RGB
0.315 0.331 57.9 xyY
80.7 0.21 0.82 CIE L*a*b

The light gray is

224 224 224
0.313 0.330 74.6
89.2 -0.20 0.18

The dark gray is

193 191 189
0.316 0.331 52.4
77.5 0.38 1.19

The light gray is the one that's pretty much dead on neutral. The med gray is close as well.

I take it the med gray is your Scorpion?

It's family time for me now. I have some graphs for these as well. I'll try and get to it tomorrow.

**clark17** · **04-09-09, 11:41 PM**

Mech, sorry about that I thought I did tell you which one is which in the PM...

I guess I forgot

I'll try different ratios to try to get higher N value, I might sent you another set of samples when I get to it.... Also if you have any other ideas/mixtures to test PM me.

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Well you had three unmarked samples...

The med gray is SCORPION N8

201 200 199 RGB
0.315 0.331 57.9 xyY
80.7 0.21 0.82 CIE L*a*b

The light gray is C&S#2

224 224 224
0.313 0.330 74.6
89.2 -0.20 0.18

The dark gray is BW CIL Smart3 Ultra Matte base with AAAF 4:1

193 191 189
0.316 0.331 52.4
77.5 0.38 1.19

The light gray is the one that's pretty much dead on neutral. The med gray is close as well.

I take it the med gray is your Scorpion?

It's family time for me now. I have some graphs for these as well. I'll try and get to it tomorrow.

**mechman** · **04-10-09, 10:11 AM**

Martin's Black Widow - my advice in the future is to either stay away from CIL or that particular paint store. That is the worst Black Widow I have ever measured... and yet it still is a 'close' neutral.

Martin's C&S -

Martin's Scorpion - This would have been much better if BW wasn't off. And since there's only one thing that could possibly get screwed up...

**clark17** · **04-10-09, 12:05 PM**

Mech,

Thanks for the graphs. I might consider buying a quart of 1850 and 4oz of AAAF and do the proper mix. That should give me better BW. The CIL was a free gift . So what is the problem with the BW, is the uneven RGB and Delta E over 1? Do you think if I changed the ratios toward using more S&C, would that help the mixture? I'm thinking about doing something like 1:8 ratio.... I wonder if that would put me in the N8.4 waters..

BTW... Harpmaker said the say thing and his reading were very similar, the BW is the weakest link

**mechman** · **04-10-09, 05:14 PM**

My N8.5 is this:

8oz of Bermuda Beige - preferably Valspar Ultra Premium Flat Enamel - I've also tested Pittsburgh Paint Grand Distinction Flat Enamel (they may call it matte - I'm too lazy to run and check the can)
2oz of AAA-F
40oz of Luminous White matte - I have yet to check High Reflective white totally but I have no reason to doubt it would work at the moment.
8oz of Craft Smart Metallic Silver

It gets me at 217 across the boards for RGB right now. But I haven't checked it against anything.

My thoughts regarding all of this is that we can get any lightness you may want by keeping the LW/HRW:CSMS ratio at 2:1 or greater. And adding whatever amount of Black Widow to darken. It was a 1:1 C&S:BW to get a N8 and a 2:1 + 24oz of LW to get a N8.5. I'm certain we could add more CSMS to the mix. But I haven't had a chance to try it. I've been extremely busy lately.

So there you have it folks... the formulas are out. Please send samples for spectro'ing though!

And until someone gets some side-by-side tests done, this is still 'beta'. Use at your own risk.

**clark17** · **04-10-09, 11:16 PM**

Wow... No kidding when you guys said mixing paints is not proportional... Before I go out trying

, Mech have you tried something like 6:1 C&S:BW ratio? I wonder how close to N8.5 would that mix be...

Quote:

mechman wrote:

My N8.5 is this:
8oz of Bermuda Beige - preferably Valspar Ultra Premium Flat Enamel - I've also tested Pittsburgh Paint Grand Distinction Flat Enamel (they may call it matte - I'm too lazy to run and check the can)
2oz of AAA-F
40oz of Luminous White matte - I have yet to check High Reflective white totally but I have no reason to doubt it would work at the moment.
8oz of Craft Smart Metallic Silver

**doug goldberg** · **04-11-09, 11:59 AM**

I need to try the 8.5. Yesterday the weather was finally good enough that I could spray my screen in the garage. I have 84" made from hardboard. The best investment I made was the $47 (on sale) for the Wagner sprayer. It makes a beautiful finish very easy. My hardboard was primed with Kilz2 (4 coats sprayed) and then 3 top coats of C&S. I also spent the $3 for a squirrel cage mixer for the drill. That was very helpful. I have a test panel of 8.0 BW derivative to compare. The C&S look fantastic! The 8.0 has great contrast but I still the like the brighter whites of the 9.0 C&S. I'm thinking the 8.5 might be perfect. I'm going to wait a few days for the screen to really dry and then run a full cal on my projector (Epson 8500). I think I will make test panel of the 8.5..

I want to really thank Mech and Harp who really helped me out with this project. Im very happy to have found this community who has really taken a scientific approach to the DIY screen.

**mechman** · **04-11-09, 01:51 PM**

Quote:

clark17 wrote:

Wow... No kidding when you guys said mixing paints is not proportional... Before I go out trying

, Mech have you tried something like 6:1 C&S:BW ratio? I wonder how close to N8.5 would that mix be...

Well... a 4:1, minus 3 parts of the CSMS, hits N8.5 fine. Why would I do a 6:1?

Seriously though, I'm fairly certain that any proportion will work just fine. And I would guess that maybe the 6:1 would hit N8.5. But it's just a guess. Send me a sample when you're done!

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