Black Widow Beta Testers Needed

**mechman** · **04-11-09, 01:53 PM**

Quote:

doug goldberg wrote:

I need to try the 8.5. Yesterday the weather was finally good enough that I could spray my screen in the garage. I have 84" made from hardboard. The best investment I made was the $47 (on sale) for the Wagner sprayer. It makes a beautiful finish very easy. My hardboard was primed with Kilz2 (4 coats sprayed) and then 3 top coats of C&S. I also spent the $3 for a squirrel cage mixer for the drill. That was very helpful. I have a test panel of 8.0 BW derivative to compare. The C&S look fantastic! The 8.0 has great contrast but I still the like the brighter whites of the 9.0 C&S. I'm thinking the 8.5 might be perfect. I'm going to wait a few days for the screen to really dry and then run a full cal on my projector (Epson 8500). I think I will make test panel of the 8.5..

I want to really thank Mech and Harp who really helped me out with this project. Im very happy to have found this community who has really taken a scientific approach to the DIY screen.

Good job Doug!

Send me a sample of your N8.5 and N8 if you would.

**clark17** · **04-12-09, 01:00 AM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Well... a 4:1, minus 3 parts of the CSMS, hits N8.5 fine. Why would I do a 6:1?

Seriously though, I'm fairly certain that any proportion will work just fine. And I would guess that maybe the 6:1 would hit N8.5. But it's just a guess. Send me a sample when you're done!

Mech,

I already have about 45oz of good S&C#2 mix and I don't have any 1850 paint left. On top of which as I said before I cannot yet get Luminous White matte in Canada

I'll try to do some samples for you and Harpmaker for reading (i.e. 4:1, 6:1, 8:1).... Since my BW is not that great, I will probably end up using 8:1 ratio...

**doug goldberg** · **04-13-09, 08:02 AM**

Mech,

What the best way to make and send a sample? i also noticed that the visible color of the screens darkened a bit after they had dried for a day or so. Its almost like the silver became exposed more after a good drying. I still cant get over the finish from spraying. Its just so uniform and smooth.

**mechman** · **04-13-09, 08:07 AM**

Put it on a 3X5" index card. Make sure it's thick enough so that the card doesn't show through. Needs to be the size of a dime.

**mrkln** · **04-13-09, 01:37 PM**

Hello. Long time reader, 1st time poster here. I purchased one of the closeout Pioneer FPJ1 projectors and am wondering which shade of BW would be best for my application. We will be using the projector in a somewhat light controlled living room (i.e. shades drawn) with pretty dark walls (medium to dark brown). I was thinking that the original BWN7.5 would be the best for the ambient light but I'm not sure if the projector will be bright enough for original BW. Plus, I don't think that I will need the additional contrast enhancement of the darkest BW. I would be more than happy to try one of the new Scorpions if you think it would be better suited to my projector.

Room specifics are projecting an image from 11'-6" onto a 92" screen. Please let me know what you would recommend.

Thanks in advance.

**mechman** · **04-13-09, 07:59 PM**

Welcome Cory! According to PJ Central you have 15fL with a 92" screen at 11'6". That's well within Black Widow territory. What I would do is buy enough of everything so that you can paint up a couple test panels. If you don't want to do that just go with the Scorpion N8 then.

But really you can use any of the mixes here. It's all a matter of your preferences. Do you want deep dark blacks? Or do you like really bright whites? Will you have lights on? Richum just did an experiment and found that only 1.4 lux of ambient light started to wash out the blacks.

**wbassett** · **04-13-09, 08:33 PM**

Just like I've been preaching that even one lit candle is enough to trash CR. It may not be enough to start washing the image out, but you could say 1 lit candle is the start of image degradation.

**Harpmaker** · **04-13-09, 10:48 PM**

To put things in context, 1.4 Lux is about 0.13 fL.

That experiment was using C&S as a screen, which is N9. At this N level ambient light is a screen-killer for sure, but it will still take more than a truly white screen.

That experiment was to bring up the level of ambient room light until there was a perceived effect on the screen image; I don't think anyone would call that "washed out" quite yet.

I am a confessed True Believer in Gray screens, even in light controlled HT's. The main problem people seem to have with gray screens is that they almost invariably compare them side-by-side with a white screen and see the "hit" that whites and bright colors take in such a comparison. They don't understand that those factors are dealt with when one recalibrates the PJ for the darker screen AND the bright white reference is totally removed so the brain will accept the "gray" as a true white. Yes, it is a form of optical illusion, but it works! Personally, I think that what some people have called "muted" or "attenuated" colors on a gray screen actually look richer and more saturated. Each to their own opinion I guess.

**clark17** · **04-14-09, 12:23 PM**

+1

Amen

Quote:

Harpmaker wrote:

To put things in context, 1.4 Lux is about 0.13 fL.

That experiment was using C&S as a screen, which is N9. At this N level ambient light is a screen-killer for sure, but it will still take more than a truly white screen.

That experiment was to bring up the level of ambient room light until there was a perceived effect on the screen image; I don't think anyone would call that "washed out" quite yet.

I am a confessed True Believer in Gray screens, even in light controlled HT's. The main problem people seem to have with gray screens is that they almost invariably compare them side-by-side with a white screen and see the "hit" that whites and bright colors take in such a comparison. They don't understand that those factors are dealt with when one recalibrates the PJ for the darker screen AND the bright white reference is totally removed so the brain will accept the "gray" as a true white. Yes, it is a form of optical illusion, but it works! Personally, I think that what some people have called "muted" or "attenuated" colors on a gray screen actually look richer and more saturated. Each to their own opinion I guess.

**blue eyed soul** · **04-14-09, 01:59 PM**

I would love to try a lighter shade of bw over here in Germany. My current setup consists of an Optoma hd700x (not sure if you guys have it over in the US, it is pretty much comparable to the hd 65).
It is however ceiling mounted and it throws an 125'' Image on a sort of Off white uneven wall. The wall will be smoothed, the BW would then be painted on directly.
The room is pretty large with high ceilings, white walls and wooden floor. Light is definitely an issue. No bright sunlight directly on the wall but yet almost always some ambient light due to a rather large window front.
I guess it will be challenging for me finding the right paints over here other than auto air aluminum which is available. All other ingredients will have to be substituted or mixed (converting it to the European RAL color scheme).
So, if you guys have any suggestions on what N shade would work best with my setup I would be more than glad to try and mix a German version of BW and spread the BW word all over my part of this world.
Thanks,
Jan

**mechman** · **04-14-09, 04:17 PM**

Jan,

Unfortunately, the beta mixes aren't yet international. And there's no guarantee they ever will be. The problem with getting this to Europe is that one of the key ingredients is not available there in Europe - Craft Smart Metallic Silver. We may one day find an equivalent.

**Harpmaker** · **04-14-09, 04:40 PM**

Hi Jan,

Welcome to HTS!

Yes, making a lighter version of BW outside of North America could be a bit of a problem. The best way we have found is to mix it with a very light gray mix called Cream&Sugar; the problem is that this mix uses a craft paint for which we have not found a suitable replacement for in other countries. The search is ongoing.

Which RAL standard are you referring to, RAL CLASSIC (4 digit) or RAL DESIGN (7 digits)?

RAL DESIGN values are the same a L*C*h* values (luminance, chroma, hue angle) so it should be possible to convert L*a*b and RGB colors to RAL DESIGN.
http://www.paintcenter.org/rj/apr05a.cfm

**Harpmaker** · **04-14-09, 06:01 PM**

I've converted the base for Black Widow into the RAL equivalent (I hope

).

BW base color L*a*b* to RAL DESIGN. The numbers on the left side are for PPG-Bermuda Beige; the numbers on the right side are rounded off since RAL DESIGN uses no fractions.

If I understand RAL DESIGN, the number of this paint color would be 0568610. From left to right - the first 3 digits are the hue angle (h), the second 2 digits are luminance or lightness (L*) and the last 2 digits are chroma (C*).

Jan, if your PJ is as bright as the HD65 you can use the regular BW formula with no problem at all. I'm getting about 33 fL. from that PJ at your screen size. With white walls and ambient light to contend with I think I would suggest regular BW for your screen.

**mrkln** · **04-15-09, 12:32 AM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Welcome Cory! According to PJ Central you have 15fL with a 92" screen at 11'6". That's well within Black Widow territory. What I would do is buy enough of everything so that you can paint up a couple test panels. If you don't want to do that just go with the Scorpion N8 then.

But really you can use any of the mixes here. It's all a matter of your preferences. Do you want deep dark blacks? Or do you like really bright whites? Will you have lights on? Richum just did an experiment and found that only 1.4 lux of ambient light started to wash out the blacks.

Well, I was leaning towards the original BW due to ambient light issues while watching the projector during the daytime with the shades drawn or with some lighting on during sporting events with the guys. I think it is a safe statement for me to make that I would be willing to sacrifice some vibrant whites in return for better ambient light handling ability. I am assuming that the darker the BW mixture, the better its ability to handle ambient light. Is this a correct statement?

With the contrast ratio of my projector, would I still be better off going with the N8 or N8.5 for the brighter image? How much will the ambient light shedding ability decrease with each shade lighter Scorpion?

Thanks for the advice.

**custard** · **04-15-09, 08:09 AM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Jan,

Unfortunately, the beta mixes aren't yet international. And there's no guarantee they ever will be. The problem with getting this to Europe is that one of the key ingredients is not available there in Europe - Craft Smart Metallic Silver. We may one day find an equivalent.

i have been searching for a craft smart equivalent for the UK and Europe for a while. no luck yet with finding one yet but i'll keep on searching. any updates will be posted here.

**blue eyed soul** · **04-15-09, 02:08 PM**

Hi there,
thanks a lot for your replies. I know it will be challenging for me to come up with a European edition of bw. Whatever my results will be, they of course can never be your originial bw, hence I cannot be a true beta tester, point given.
However, we do have a broad variety of paint manufacturers, many of which are at least affiliated with American companies. Odds are, I might just come across Craft Smart Metallic Silver which might be available over here under a different brand name, - all would be fine.
I had to learn that most Companies are not at all keen on revealing whether they manufacture their own paints or simply import it and sell it under a different name.
If I can't get my hands on original Craft Smart Metallic Silver, I would still like to experiment with what I can get over here.
After all, the sole idea of mixing customer available paints to create a veritable but yet inexpensive screen is what I got stuck on.

Don,
thanks alot for converting Bermuda Beige to the RAL scheme for me. We do in fact commonly use the 4 digit classic scheme, most paint shops can handle the design scheme though (never knew there even was a design scheme). So, BB should not be my biggest concern.
As for using original bw: I do not know the gain of my greyish off white wall but I feel that it should be higher than original bw. I am running my pj in eco mode and the picture is not at all bright as it is. That is why I would like to try a lighter 'bw ish' screen paint, hoping for higher gain.
To improve gain I also plan on experimenting with glassbeads.
Please keep in mind that I have absolutely no profound knowledge about this matter whatsoever so my efforts will mostly be trial and error, hopefully assisted by some more or less educated guessing.

Mech,

It seems that no one over here has bothered to mix a diy screen paint, although goo and the like are quite big sellers. As stated before, I know close to nothing about spectro and gain readings and I unfortunately don't even know anyone who does in Germany. If I beat the odds though and do come up with a European Scorpion, I would still very mich like to throw my hat in the ring and participate as an off record beta tester.

custy,

you will be the first to know if I find out where to get what we want of course.

**mechman** · **04-15-09, 03:39 PM**

Quote:

blue eyed soul wrote:

Mech,

It seems that no one over here has bothered to mix a diy screen paint, although goo and the like are quite big sellers. As stated before, I know close to nothing about spectro and gain readings and I unfortunately don't even know anyone who does in Germany. If I beat the odds though and do come up with a European Scorpion, I would still very mich like to throw my hat in the ring and participate as an off record beta tester.

Excellent!

**Harpmaker** · **04-15-09, 05:21 PM**

Quote:

blue eyed soul wrote:

Don,
thanks alot for converting Bermuda Beige to the RAL scheme for me. We do in fact commonly use the 4 digit classic scheme, most paint shops can handle the design scheme though (never knew there even was a design scheme). So, BB should not be my biggest concern.
As for using original bw: I do not know the gain of my greyish off white wall but I feel that it should be higher than original bw. I am running my pj in eco mode and the picture is not at all bright as it is. That is why I would like to try a lighter 'bw ish' screen paint, hoping for higher gain.
To improve gain I also plan on experimenting with glassbeads.
Please keep in mind that I have absolutely no profound knowledge about this matter whatsoever so my efforts will mostly be trial and error, hopefully assisted by some more or less educated guessing.

Hi Jan,

This is another case where I wish you actually KNEW how much light your PJ is shooting your screen with, it would simplify things a bit. Anyway, at the end of the day it is still user preference that prevails.

How prevalent is the RAL DESIGN system for making paints? Is it only used in Germany? The reason I'm asking is that it makes sense, and it is relatively easy to convert most color-space readings for many different methods into RAL DESIGN colors. I like it and wish we used it in the States!

If you would like, I can come up with RAL DESIGN colors for neutral gray paints in N8, N8.5 and N9. You could get small amounts of these and determine what N level suites your needs. Adding the reflective elements to a mix makes it perform about a Half-N level higher than the base shade (BW is a N7.5 mix, but performs like it was a N8, or higher).

Two hints about using glass beads to make a screen:
Forget about it if using a ceiling-mounted PJ; glass beads are retro-reflective and bounce the light back toward the light source. Unless you watch your movies standing up (your eyes closer on-axis to the PJ) you would actually see LESS gain from such a screen.

Don't use the glass beads designed for road signs and road paint. They are too large and will give a granular appearance to the screen.

If you ever want to have any of your paint mixes color tested, just PM mech or myself.

**clark17** · **04-15-09, 07:03 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Martin's Black Widow - my advice in the future is to either stay away from CIL or that particular paint store. That is the worst Black Widow I have ever measured... and yet it still is a 'close' neutral.

Martin's C&S -

Martin's Scorpion - This would have been much better if BW wasn't off. And since there's only one thing that could possibly get screwed up...

Enough is enough, I can't take this abuse from Mech and Harpmaker about using the worst ever BW mix...

So today I picked a quart of 1850 and 8oz of AAAF.... Once I get BW mixed up, I'll redo Scorpion N8 (1:1) and I'll try lighter version of Scorpion something like 1:2 1:3 and 1:4 versions. I'll send you (Mech and Harpmaker) samples sometime next week...

**Harpmaker** · **04-15-09, 07:46 PM**

Quote:

clark17 wrote:

So today I picked a quart of 1850 and 8oz of AAAF.... Once I get BW mixed up, I'll redo Scorpion N8 (1:1) and I'll try lighter version of Scorpion something like 1:2 1:3 and 1:4 versions. I'll send you (Mech and Harpmaker) samples sometime next week...

You did have that quart tinted to match PPG-Bermuda Beige didn't you? Plain white 1850 won't work as a base for Black Widow.

**clark17** · **04-15-09, 11:05 PM**

Quote:

Harpmaker wrote:

You did have that quart tinted to match PPG-Bermuda Beige didn't you? Plain white 1850 won't work as a base for Black Widow.

Thanks Don, Yes I did

Prem Plus Int Flat Enamel
CF-PPG Bermuda Beige (472-2)
RED OXIDE 0 1 1
YELLOW OXID 0 2 1
LAMP BLACK 0 1 1

BTW...it is different from Todd's Bermuda Beige, I guess HD updated their Paint DB..
Perm. Yellow 0 3 0
Brown Oxide 0 4 0
Exterior Red 0 1 1

**Harpmaker** · **04-16-09, 12:33 AM**

Quote:

clark17 wrote:

Thanks Don, Yes I did

Prem Plus Int Flat Enamel
CF-PPG Bermuda Beige (472-2)
RED OXIDE 0 1 1
YELLOW OXID 0 2 1
LAMP BLACK 0 1 1

BTW...it is different from Todd's Bermuda Beige, I guess HD updated their Paint DB..
Perm. Yellow 0 3 0
Brown Oxide 0 4 0
Exterior Red 0 1 1

When you get a chance, please send mech a sample of this, and the BW you make with it; and me too if you have any to spare.

The Scorpion you make with this and your C&S should be much more neutral.

**clark17** · **04-16-09, 12:48 AM**

Quote:

Harpmaker wrote:

When you get a chance, please send mech a sample of this, and the BW you make with it; and me too if you have any to spare.

The Scorpion you make with this and your C&S should be much more neutral.

Sure thing, hopefully the mix will be better

**blue eyed soul** · **04-16-09, 08:50 AM**

Hi Don,
according to Optoma the pj is shooting 1300 ansi lumen in regular mode. However when tested by a German magazine it actually measured only 643 ansi lumen when run in eco mode and 745 in standard mode.
I am not allowed to post links here yet but if you google for "RAL Farbsystem" (using the german version of google with the .de ending) you will easily find the official ral site which is also available in english. RAL is a German color scheme and it dates back to 1927. According to the german edition of wikipedia it is the prevalent European wide standart. All paint shops I know of here use the 4 digit classic ral.
If I understand it correctly, it is not quite so easy to accurately convert from Munsell to RAL though. What I like about the Munsell scheme is its neutral grey colors. When looking at the RAL greys at wikipedia it is apparent that some of them might be neutral, others are obviously not (the question is which ones are and which are not).
I know that some people simply use RAL 7035 'Lichtgrau seidenmatt' (light grey satin matte) as a screen paint and it appears to be somewhat neutral.
I tried it myself but it is a bit too light for my taste and lacks any color and gain boost and is hence far from having the bw effect. to my naked eye I would say it equals roughly to N9.
Please let me know if you need any ral samples or translations for that matter.

I know using road sign paints would be similar to looking into the bright sun with a magnifying glass (don't we all hate it when that happens).
The glassbeads i plan on experimenting with are considerably smaller than the ones used for road signs. The same company (sili) also offers "aluminium-glitter epoxy silver" in different particle sizes. They export worldwide and their products are widely used for silverpaints. Chances are, it might just be found in Craft Smart Metallic Silver . . .
Until next week its all thoughts and talk only since I won't be home until then. I should not have engaged in this without being able to immediately run into the next store to get my experimenting started.
Thanks for your offer to test my results, I would be more than glad to accept it once I get some decent results. Again, I am still somewhat hopefull to somehow mix original scorpion over here since it seems to be a well proven solution.

**Harpmaker** · **04-16-09, 01:30 PM**

Thanks very much for the feedback Jan, it seems I misunderstood the RAL DESIGN system. I was thinking that it could represent any color and it can't, thus the problem of converting Munsell to RAL. From the links you provided, it is rather a number of discrete colors. These color numbers do represent actual color information, so they can be converted into other color spaces. The RAL CLASSIC numbers cannot.

Rounding the BW base RAL numbers I gave you so that they match existing RAL DESIGN numbers I get 0609010. To get a closer match you could probably get a quart each of 0508010 and 0609010 and mix them in equal amounts in the hopes of getting a 0558510 which is very close to the 0568610 I had given before. While I certainly don't expect you to go to the cost or bother of doing this, it would be interesting to see how well that worked.

Bermuda Beige compared to RAL 0609010. A real RAL DESIGN number.

Bermuda Beige compared to RAL 0508010. A real RAL DESIGN number

Bermuda Beige compared to RAL 0558510. A possible result of mixing the two above colors.

I'll start a new thread about RAL colors and put the above info there as well and add some neutral grays.

As far as matching Craft Smart Metallic Silver, the "metallic" element in this paint isn't mica (it isn't iridescent) and it isn't aluminum (it doesn't darken a mix like AL based paints). At the moment, I'm thinking it is a coated polyester flake, but I don't know for sure.

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