Scorpion N8 and N8.5

**mechman** · **06-20-09, 06:52 PM**

I just realized that we've never really come clean on these two.

Scorpion N8 is a 50:50 mix of Cream & Sugar : Black Widow

4 parts Bermuda Beige - matte or flat enamel preferably Valspar Ultra Premium Flat Enamel (we call it VUPE)
1 part Auto Air Aluminum Fine (can be acquired online at Dick Blicks or someplace locally that sells specialty auto paints)

Mix the above equally with this:

2 parts Sherwin-Williams Luminous White flat interior latex
1 part Craft Smart Metallic Silver (can be acquired at Michaels)

Scorpion N8.5 is this:

8oz of Bermuda Beige - preferably Valspar Ultra Premium Flat Enamel - I've also tested Pittsburgh Paint Grand Distinction Flat Enamel (they may call it matte - I'm too lazy to run and check the can)
2oz of AAA-F
40oz of Luminous White matte - I have yet to check High Reflective white totally but I have no reason to doubt it would work at the moment.
8oz of Craft Smart Metallic Silver

Scorpion N8 spectrophotometer readings

Scorpion N8.5 spectrophotometer readings

We've had several beta testers try it out and they all liked it but we never got any photos to go along with this. I plan on doing full photo tests of these in the very near future. I also have some reflective readings from my projector on one of these two on my laptop that I'll post tomorrow.

**mechman** · **06-21-09, 02:57 PM**

Scorpion N8.5 reflective measures:

Compare that to the reading directly from the projector:

**DavidHawke** · **07-10-09, 02:28 PM**

On an initial thread introducing the Cream & Sugar mix, you stated that Luminous white was chosen as the base because you simply had a gallon of it lying around. Was it ever determined that Luminous White has to be used? Or would Behr UPW, or Valspar Ultra White base work just as well?

I can get the Sherwin Williams... but they seem to be really proud of their name, at $32 per gallon. Behr and Valspar each run about half of that. If it isn't crucial to the performance of Cream & Sugar, then I really don't want to pay double for it.

Any feedback will be most appreciated!

**Harpmaker** · **07-10-09, 07:35 PM**

Quote:

DavidHawke wrote:

On an initial thread introducing the Cream & Sugar mix, you stated that Luminous white was chosen as the base because you simply had a gallon of it lying around. Was it ever determined that Luminous White has to be used? Or would Behr UPW, or Valspar Ultra White base work just as well?

I can get the Sherwin Williams... but they seem to be really proud of their name, at $32 per gallon. Behr and Valspar each run about half of that. If it isn't crucial to the performance of Cream & Sugar, then I really don't want to pay double for it.

Any feedback will be most appreciated!

Answered in the C&S thread here.

**tiggers97** · **08-12-09, 12:56 PM**

Hi all,

I was thinking about giving the N8.5 mixture a try in a few weeks (my first DIY screen).

Any additional information about this mixture?

FYI I'm using a Mitsubishi 4900 in a light controlled room with a double folded white bedsheet

**Harpmaker** · **08-12-09, 06:04 PM**

Hi Mike, welcome to the Shack!

What more info about Scorpion N8.5 do you need?

To help give you better advice we need to know what color the walls, floor and ceiling are in the room where the screen will be; and how dark a color they are.

How large is the room?

What screen size are you thinking of using?

How far will the PJ be from the screen?

I can safely say that about any screen you make should be better than the bedsheet.

**mechman** · **08-12-09, 08:41 PM**

I believe that you may just want to try the N8 as it would be easier to mix. But as harp said, we'd need more info.

**DavidHawke** · **08-13-09, 09:28 AM**

I was looking at the spectro readings, and I was curious about "DICE"? What is Dice 5:1, etc?

**Harpmaker** · **08-13-09, 10:17 AM**

Quote:

DavidHawke wrote:

I was looking at the spectro readings, and I was curious about "DICE"? What is Dice 5:1, etc?

"Dice" was the project name for the screen mixes that would become Black Widow. Dice 5:1 means that this mix contains 5 parts of a latex house paint and 1 part of aluminum paint. The aluminum paint used in those mixes was Henry 558.

Unfortunately, the Dice mixes were found to discolor over time and are no longer recommended. They still work, but the screen would have to be repainted probably at least yearly to stay neutral. Also the aluminum paint used in those mixes is hard to find and only comes in gallons. Since the discovery of Auto Air Aluminum (fine) it has become the only recommended aluminum paint for making BW.

**mechman** · **08-13-09, 11:01 AM**

Quote:

DavidHawke wrote:

I was looking at the spectro readings, and I was curious about "DICE"? What is Dice 5:1, etc?

I have been in the process of updating that list and the web site. It's taken much longer than I anticipated it would. One of these days it will be done and it will be easier to read and have only pertinent information. There's a lot of 'fluff' in that list. It's on my 'round tuit' list.

**tiggers97** · **08-14-09, 09:41 AM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

I believe that you may just want to try the N8 as it would be easier to mix. But as harp said, we'd need more info.

Well, ok.

The room is light controlled. The wall and ceiling around the screen is painted a flat off-black. Projector is 13ft and the seating is 11ft from the screen. I'm going with a 98" screen as that is the biggest I can get from a 4x8 doable sheet I have, and seems about right for the seating distance.

**mechman** · **08-14-09, 10:41 AM**

Mike,

And between the pj and the doable you're not getting deep enough blacks right?

**Harpmaker** · **08-14-09, 10:56 AM**

Quote:

tiggers97 wrote:

Well, ok.

The room is light controlled. The wall and ceiling around the screen is painted a flat off-black. Projector is 13ft and the seating is 11ft from the screen. I'm going with a 98" screen as that is the biggest I can get from a 4x8 doable sheet I have, and seems about right for the seating distance.

Thanks Mike, that info helps. Going by the screen size and PJ distance your PJ is hitting the screen with about 14 fL. of light at the default brightness setting. This is bright enough to use any screen mix recommended here at the Shack including Black Widow. If you want to use low-lamp/econo mode to extend lamp life then BW might be getting a bit on the dark side depending on personal preferences.

If you do all your viewing in total darkness C&S would do you fine. If you're PJ needs a bit of help in black-level (black areas of the image look gray) then going with a darker mix will help that as well as increase image quality if you want some room lights on while viewing.

It's difficult to tell someone which to use us, N8 or N8.5 since the difference between them is relatively small and which one you would like best comes down to personal preference.

The down-side to the Scorpion N8.5 mix is that it has only been tested using Sherwin-Williams Luminous White. For many people, Luminous White is only available in gallons for around $40. Scorpion N8 can be mixes using any of the C&S mixes.

Oops! I missed that you are using doable. If you want a better image than what that gives by itself you should probably go with Scorpion N8.

**tiggers97** · **08-14-09, 10:59 AM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Mike,

And between the pj and the doable you're not getting deep enough blacks right?

Actually, between the pj and the bedsheet

I'm looking for a significant increase in performance. The Mitsubishi hc4900 is a bit weak for the dark performance. But I do have a light controlled room. The scorpion seemed like a good balance to me.

**tiggers97** · **08-14-09, 11:54 AM**

Quote:

Harpmaker wrote:

Thanks Mike, that info helps.... if you want to use low-lamp/econo mode to extend lamp life then BW might be getting a bit on the dark side depending on personal preferences.

Forgot to mention that; yes, it is in econo mode. My wife sometimes watches with the lights on (doing crafts) but PQ isn't important to her. So I'm targeting the light controlled situation for 'real' movie viewing. I think the blacks are not too bad. But that’s probably because of the black wall behind the bed sheet. The borders during aspect ratio movies look dark dark grey. It was actually fine for standard DVD viewing. But now that I have a blu-ray it just seems that the sheet soaks up the HD and could be improved on.

Quote:

Harpmaker wrote:

If you do all your viewing in total darkness C&S would do you fine. If you're PJ needs a bit of help in black-level (black areas of the image look gray) then going with a darker mix will help that as well as increase image quality if you want some room lights on while viewing.
….
Oops! I missed that you are using doable. If you want a better image than what that gives by itself you should probably go with Scorpion N8.

This is exactly my situation. Most of the time family viewing is done in total darkness. Sometimes with the lights on in the back if we decide to have a snack while watching. If the N8 is an easier ratio of ingredients to mix, I’ll give that one a try.

I do have a question on the Bermuda Beige. I was in Lowes and picked up a quart using the Valspar Ultra Premium Flat Enamel, per the recommendations. They had to search deep into their database to find the color by that name. But after buying it I started to have some doubts it is the right paint. Is there a paint code or such that I can use to confirm? I’d give you what’s on the can, but I won’t be home till this evening.

**Harpmaker** · **08-14-09, 01:46 PM**

I think the first thing I would do, if feasible, is to put up the sheet of doable and see how you like that as a screen by itself. Lots of people like doable as it is. Don't forget to calibrate your PJ to the screen.

From what you have told us, my guess is that you will want deeper blacks than doable alone can give you. In that case try Scorpion N8.

The thing about having a custom color made is that there are different ways to make essentially the same color. Why? I don't know. One theory is that if the tinting machine is running low on one color of tint that is used in the formula it will compensate by adjusting the formula to use alternate tints. There is nothing wrong with this. Another possible reason is that different versions of the tinting program are being used.

In the Valspar paint, I have two different tint formulae for making a quart of PPG-Bermuda Beige #427-2:

#1
Base 1
104 - 3.5
107 - 2.5
109 - 0.5

#2
Base 1
101 - 1.25
107 - 1.875
109 - 1.625

I have no idea what colors those tint numbers represent, but I'll try (

) to remember to check next time I get to my Lowe's store.

Since there are differences in how colors are displayed by different monitors (or how they are adjusted) this color swatch might not be exactly the color of your BB if it's been properly made, but it should be close.

**tiggers97** · **08-14-09, 09:53 PM**

My can says:

#2341 Custom Colors are non refundable
Manual Dispense 07/25/09.
107-3
101-1.5
109-2

Thank you for the color sample. The sample dot of paint on my lid looks pretty close. That is a bit of relief for me as it did not look like something I would think could be used as a projector screen to my armature eye.

I remember reading in older posts a few months back for BW and "finding a true neutral grey" about how color shifts caused by the different tints can affect picture quality. I'm guessing that there is some room for fudge in something like the C&S or Scorpion?

**Harpmaker** · **08-14-09, 11:21 PM**

It is quite interesting how adding an aluminum paint to a pinkish-beige paint can result in a neutral gray mix, but it does.

The best "color" for a screen is a neutral gray. If it is anything other than that, or a true white, the screen will produce a color-cast (or color shift) in the image that will have to be adjusted out using the PJ settings. While many PJ's can be so adjusted, it is simply better for a number of reasons if you don't have to do that.

We develop our screen mixes to extremely tight neutrality criteria to help build in a bit of a "fudge factor" to allow for slight errors in mixing or even paint tinting (yes, Lowe's and Home Depot don't always get the color right on the button).

**dradius** · **08-18-09, 03:34 PM**

Has anybody used the scorpion mix with a low lumen (diy) projector?

**Harpmaker** · **08-18-09, 08:43 PM**

Quote:

dradius wrote:

Has anybody used the scorpion mix with a low lumen (diy) projector?

It would help if you defined "low lumen", preferably in fL. or Lux.

**mechman** · **08-18-09, 10:32 PM**

Quote:

dradius wrote:

Has anybody used the scorpion mix with a low lumen (diy) projector?

The 2:1 BW I'm testing may be something you want to try. At my current white/black level settings, I notice subtle hot spotting. I have yet to try it with those levels calibrated properly for the panel. It may do well in a low lumen situation.

**DavidHawke** · **08-18-09, 11:34 PM**

My local Lowes mixed Bermuda Beige for me in the Ultra White Flat Enamel base.... not the Base 1.

The formula code was as follows...
101-5
107-11.5
109-7.5

The resulting color looks identical to the "peachy" shade you have shown above.
Do you think the version made in Base 1 performs better, since Base 1 is more translucent & contains less titanium dioxide to mask the Craft Smart reflective particles?

**Harpmaker** · **08-19-09, 10:50 AM**

Quote:

DavidHawke wrote:

My local Lowes mixed Bermuda Beige for me in the Ultra White Flat Enamel base.... not the Base 1.

The formula code was as follows...
101-5
107-11.5
109-7.5

The resulting color looks identical to the "peachy" shade you have shown above.
Do you think the version made in Base 1 performs better, since Base 1 is more translucent & contains less titanium dioxide to mask the Craft Smart reflective particles?

The tint formula you give is for a gallon. Usually, the gallon formula is simply the quart formula multiplied by 4. My guess would be that your store didn't have any Base 1 so they had the computer adjust the tint formula to use a full gallon of Ultra White. I think you are good to go.

Something I learned while developing and testing screen mixes is that there are two basic ways paint companies go with regard to bases; one way is to have bases used to make darker paints more transparent (less Titanium Dioxide) and the other is to simply have less white paint in the can. Behr uses the former and Valspar the latter. The paint in your gallon of Valspar Ultra White is the exact same paint as in Valspar Base 1, the only difference between the Valspar Bases is the amount of white paint in the can; the higher the number of the base (I think they go to Base 4), the less paint is in the can to allow for the volume of the added tint. Behr also has less paint per can, their "quart" of Deep Base only contains 29 ounces of paint leaving 3 ounces of room for tint, but the Deep Base alone dries almost clear.

Something that may be of interest, while we're on the subject, is that I had a quart of "Black Tuxedo" made at an Ace hardware store. Ace paint uses the same system as Behr and the can of paint the paint-guy opened looked very translucent. I watched as he added the tints manually and the final color he put in was white! To make a quart of the blackest paint Ace has, he said he had to add 1/4 ounce of pure white tint or it wouldn't cover well.

**dradius** · **08-19-09, 01:59 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

The 2:1 BW I'm testing may be something you want to try. At my current white/black level settings, I notice subtle hot spotting. I have yet to try it with those levels calibrated properly for the panel. It may do well in a low lumen situation.

Cool, I will read up on it. Thanks.

I have no idea how many lumens my PJ puts out, fl. or flux. I am happy with my current screen that has Tiddler's pearl poly mix. However, I'm going to build a dedicated theater and a new screen (

), so I'm looking at whats new on the diy paint scene.

**dradius** · **08-19-09, 02:03 PM**

Quote:

Harpmaker wrote:

I watched as he added the tints manually and the final color he put in was white! To make a quart of the blackest paint Ace has, he said he had to add 1/4 ounce of pure white tint or it wouldn't cover well.

That is interesting. My first DIY screen, I tired a couple different mixes, several trips to home depot. My wife said I should have just bought a screen by the time I spent all the money making my own. They just don't get it

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