Black Widow 5:1 vs. 4:1

**DavidHawke** · **07-13-09, 10:49 AM**

My friend and I have been experimenting with Black Widow, trying to find the mix that looks best for our prospective projectors (Mine's a Sharp XV-Z3100, his is a Panasonic AE2000u).

I'm a little confused, because several forums say that it is acceptable to make Black Widow in either a 4:1 ratio in un-tinted Ultra White Flat base, or as a 5:1 ratio in Valspar tinted to Bermuda Beige.

The small batches I have made, seem to show much better sparkle in the 4:1 un-tinted version. Its almost like the tint substantially masks the aluminum flakes. Not to mention that there are physically fewer flakes in the 5:1 mix.

What was the definitive decision on which version performs better? Is the addition of Bermuda Beige tint that crucial... or can calibration overcome any push that the 4:1 ratio in pure white base might exhibit?

I ask this, because I'm wondering why no one has mixed Black Widow in a 6:1, 7:1, or even 8:1 ratio (in pure white) to acheive a lighter gray mix? I've been fooling around with Craft Smart Silver Metallic... and it just doesn't seem to pack the punch of Black Jack aluminum. At least not to my eyes. Just wondering what the photo spectrometer has to say about it. Anybody ever analyzed it before?

**mechman** · **07-13-09, 11:25 AM**

Black Widow will not work with an untinted base. The original, which used Henry HE558, used a white base. But that version is no more - HE558 starts to discolor slightly after a year or so. Consult the main thread for the correct materials and ratios.

For an in depth look at what's been tried, what works, what failed, what hasn't been finished yet, and how it all came about, take a look at these threads:

Further Investigations

Further Investigations II

Further Investigations III

**mechman** · **07-13-09, 11:28 AM**

Also, if you want lighter than BW, yet darker than C&S, try Scorpion!

It's virtually impossible to get a lighter BW outside of the 4:1:1 mix. You need the tinted base to get it neutral. And the base is about as light as it can get.

**wbassett** · **07-13-09, 12:00 PM**

Quote:

DavidHawke wrote:

My friend and I have been experimenting with Black Widow, trying to find the mix that looks best for our prospective projectors (Mine's a Sharp XV-Z3100, his is a Panasonic AE2000u).

I'm a little confused, because several forums say that it is acceptable to make Black Widow in either a 4:1 ratio in un-tinted Ultra White Flat base, or as a 5:1 ratio in Valspar tinted to Bermuda Beige.

The small batches I have made, seem to show much better sparkle in the 4:1 un-tinted version. Its almost like the tint substantially masks the aluminum flakes. Not to mention that there are physically fewer flakes in the 5:1 mix.

What was the definitive decision on which version performs better? Is the addition of Bermuda Beige tint that crucial... or can calibration overcome any push that the 4:1 ratio in pure white base might exhibit?

I ask this, because I'm wondering why no one has mixed Black Widow in a 6:1, 7:1, or even 8:1 ratio (in pure white) to acheive a lighter gray mix? I've been fooling around with Craft Smart Silver Metallic... and it just doesn't seem to pack the punch of Black Jack aluminum. At least not to my eyes. Just wondering what the photo spectrometer has to say about it. Anybody ever analyzed it before?

Mech pretty much answered you...

The official and only recommended Black Widow mix is the 4:1. That was noted in the Black Widow Sticky thread which is the official thread for BW. All the other threads were testing threads, that's probably what confused you.

I tried ratios from 3:1 up to 7:1 and I know mech made a zillion mixes himself and the 4:1 is optimal. Another option you might like is the Scorpion mix.

And yes, the aluminum is very potent stuff.

**DavidHawke** · **07-13-09, 01:44 PM**

Thanks guys. I actually scored a 5 gallon bucket of the BlackJack water based aluminum. Walmart was closing it out, for $20... so I figured why not.

It looks like Bermuda Beige to Auto Air Aluminum 4:1 is the formula of choice. Does anyone know if Bermuda Beige is still the tint of choice when using the BlackJack Aluminum?

Or, should I chalk it up as a $20 loss, and go to the art supply store and just by a bottle of the AAA?

Also, please clarify... HE558 is now NOT recommended at all? My buddy bought a gallon of it... but I believe it is unopened, so he can probably still return it.

**wbassett** · **07-13-09, 02:07 PM**

Definitely not a loss... I have 17 gallons of Black Jack!

Same mix/ratio as AAA-F. Use Bermudia Beige and BJ in a 4:1 ratio.

**DavidHawke** · **07-13-09, 02:21 PM**

What about the HE558? Any uses for it... or are BlackJack & AAA clearly superior if obtainable?

**mechman** · **07-13-09, 02:39 PM**

Blackjack and AAA don't change over time. At least not that I've been able to measure.

**Harpmaker** · **07-13-09, 07:32 PM**

Quote:

DavidHawke wrote:

What about the HE558? Any uses for it... or are BlackJack & AAA clearly superior if obtainable?

Blackjack and AAA-F are superior in that they don't change color, but if you can repaint your screen every year or so HE558 would work for you. However; if your friend can return the HE558 I would recommend doing so.

Of the 3 aluminum paints, HE558 has the largest aluminum particles, AAA-F the smallest and Blackjack is about half way between them.

For the new buyer, AAA-F is most definitely recommended over Blackjack and HE558, but if you have the others on hand...

**wbassett** · **07-13-09, 08:18 PM**

I personally have no preference between Black Jack and AAA-F, in my opinion and testing they both work and perform the same. AAA-F is more expensive, but Black Jack 5160 is hard to find and depending on who you talk to at Gardner Gibson, one person will say it's been discontinued, another will say it's still being made. Either way it can be hard to find, so AAA-F is the recommended aluminum, but if you can get your hands on BJ 5160, that works just fine too.

**DavidHawke** · **08-17-09, 07:20 PM**

Might be worth noting for the record...

The Black Jack BW, has a tendency to react adversely with latex paint, if it is stored in cans rather than used right away. It builds extreme pressure in the cans, and also seems to degrade the texture of the base paint over time. I'm pretty sure that it must have something to do with the solvents in the Black Jack. They are pretty foul smelling. Probably isn't too great to breathe the fumes, after painting a screen indoors. Being a roof paint, it was definitely never intended to be used inside.
At this point, I'd say that the AAA Fine is probably a much safer choice over all. It definitely seems to be a much more benign formula, for use in a home.

**Harpmaker** · **08-17-09, 08:31 PM**

Bill is the Black Jack expert here. When this subject first came up I believe he said he has had a number of test batches of latex paint/BJA in storage for over a year with no signs of trouble.

Tiddler was kind enough to send me some BJA, and he used old clear plastic Behr WOP (white pearl paint) bottles to ship it to me. Those bottles DID react negatively after a number of months (one had never been opened by me) and were destroyed when the BJA turned into a solid mass in what was clearly an exothermic reaction; and while pressure was obviously present the container never burst or exploded. The chemical reaction that caused this was also not hot enough to leave any burns or marks on a sheet of wooden paneling the container was setting on when it occurred. This was straight BJA and not a mix with latex paint. Bill has had no problems with BJA in it's original container or with mixes using latex paints stored in plastic containers.

This is the first I have heard about a latex/BJA mix degrading over time. Has this happened to you?

**DavidHawke** · **08-17-09, 09:17 PM**

Yes. I had a couple quart cans of BJA Black Widow pre-mixed and it happened in both of them. One of them was a lined metal can for latex paints, and the other was a non-lined metal can used for automotive paints. The reaction occurred in both of them.

The solvent base used in BJA is apparently NASTY stuff.

**Harpmaker** · **08-18-09, 08:35 AM**

Quote:

DavidHawke wrote:

Yes. I had a couple quart cans of BJA Black Widow pre-mixed and it happened in both of them. One of them was a lined metal can for latex paints, and the other was a non-lined metal can used for automotive paints. The reaction occurred in both of them.

The solvent base used in BJA is apparently NASTY stuff.

Very interesting! Just to be clear, the reaction occurred in the cans right?
Did the reaction just ruin the paint or did the lids blow off the cans?
About how long from putting the mix in the cans did it take for the reaction to take place?
What latex paints were used?
What was the ratio of latex paint to BJA?

I never got around to experimenting with the BJA I had, but I have several sample test cards of mixes using BJA sent to me from Tiddler that seem to be stable in the thin film of a painted screen. My point is that anyone that may have used a BJA mix to make a screen doesn't have to worry about their screen blowing up.

It seems BJA is wicked stuff indeed! BTW, any photos of the aftermath?

**DavidHawke** · **08-18-09, 10:13 AM**

The reaction occurred in the cans, and it did blow the lids off. It occurred very quickly, within only 2-3 days max. The paint in the cans appeared to be slightly bubbling or you might even say slightly "boiling". Don't get me wrong, the reaction isn't horribly violent. I discovered that the cans would be OK if I simply cracked the lid open a little every few days to release some of the pressure. I never personally noticed any heat build up... just pressure build up.

After a couple weeks on the shelf, the paint did seem to degrade somewhat. I tried painting some comparison test panels, with BJA BW that had been in my garage for 2.5 weeks, and the paint seemed slightly thicker, and it didn't flow as well any more.

I'm pretty sure that the base paint was either Dutch Boy Brilliant white flat, or Sherwin Williams Luminous White flat. Sorry, I don't know for sure which one... but definitely one of those two.

It was mixed in a 5:1 ratio with bermuda beige. It also happened to a lesser extent, in a can of leftover scorpion I had. However, to a much lesser degree. So diluting it obviously reduces this effect.

For good measure, I allowed the aluminum in my 5 gallon bucket of BJA to settle to the bottom. Then I siphoned off as much of the solvent as I could, and then replaced it in the bucket with distilled water. After doing this, I mixed and stored another can... just to see if it would build pressure. It still does, but to a much lesser extent now. So, I have to assume that the reaction is caused by the solvents that BJA aluminum is suspended in. I did notice that one of the home improvement websites selling gallon cans of BJA, states that it has to be shipped as a "hazardous material" and is subject to a $70 hazardous materials shipping surcharge by UPS.

As far as someones screen blowing up.... I highly doubt that's a concern. It always seems just fine when freshly mixed, and used right away. It just doesn't store well, from what I can tell.

**mechman** · **08-18-09, 10:18 AM**

It's not the solvent that would be the problem. It would be the aluminum. Aluminum, uncoated, is very dangerous. Apparently there must be issues with BlackJack.

**Harpmaker** · **08-18-09, 11:34 AM**

No matter what the problem is with Black Jack Aluminum, there is a problem. While it seems that it can be used to make a fresh screen mix, any unused mix should be dumped rather than stored. Also, BJA by itself should only be stored in it's original container.

I asked what paint David mixed BJA into since Bill never had a problem. I'm not sure what paints he tested with.

While BJA isn't explosive or anything like that, I see no reason to use it since AAA-F is available via mail-order if not from a local store.

My containers of BJA were one pint plastic jars with screw-on lids. I had opened one and done a small sample, but the other bottle was unopened by me. Both bottles "went bad" at the same time when I wasn't in my shop. The bottles showed signs of temperatures high enough to soften the plastic and as the liquid BJA turned into a solid it expanded which caused the softened bottle to distend and finally a small hole was formed and a small mount of liquid did run out of this hole. Again, these were bottles of 100% BJA so I would think this would be the maximum reaction to be expected.

The moral of the story is to use AAA-F.

Thanks for the report David!

**mechman** · **08-18-09, 01:22 PM**

Quote:

Harpmaker wrote:

The moral of the story is to use AAA-F.

Exactly.

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