Help me pick a DIY paint

[1canuck2]

Hi,

The basement reno's are schedule to complete next week, after which its on to the HT bits

Here are a couple of SketchUp designs show the room layout and colour scheme:




Note: Its just two colours, a dark chocolate brown, and a lighter yellowish brown. Unfortunately the ceiling is white (california) and there is nothing I can do about it.

The room is 13.5' wide with a 7.5' ceiling.

The projector is an Epson 6500 UB. I will be mounting the projector with the lens ~ 15.5' away from the wall and want to throw a 115' - 120' diagonal image.

My plan is to paint the screen right on the drywall.

The contractor is going to paint the room for me, I have asked him to leave the screen wall section just primed with whatever primer he uses. I will get some Kilz2 and throw a couple of coats on the screen wall after they are done.

I am going to setup the remainder of the HT and live with an all white wall for a couple of weeks while I make sure I am happy with the position/size of the screen. I will calibrate my projector against the Kilz2.

I need to find the right formula DIY screen paint for when I am ready to finish off the screen. I have total light control (and no windows), but would like to be able to have some lights on (low) for when we play Wii/PS3 instead of requiring total darkness. The wall sconces are on a dimmer, as are the potlights (in two seperately dimmable zones). For gaming, I'd like the lights up at what I'll call a "social" level (if that means anything to you) as people will be moving around taking turns, etc. For movies, it can be total darkness.

I am looking for a cost-effective paint solution, without too many exotic ingredients and without too complicated a formula (i.e. so I can't screw it up). It also needs to be rollable as I have no sprayer (and can't find the Wagner Control Spray in Canada). Once the screen is rolled, I will make a 2-3" frame covered in velvet (or equiv) and affix it directly to the wall.

So, where should I start looking? I have been reading about all different kinds of formulas, enough to make my eyes bleed, and see there are a couple of camps, even when it comes to basic ingredients (mica vs alu, etc).

My original plan was to just roll on some Behr Silver Screen or equiv, but all the DIY reading has got me psyched ot try something a little more custom.

So what N# should I be looking for? I was reading about Scorpion and it sounds like the best of both worlds with the flexibility I need, but it also has a more complicated formula. I am most concerned at optimizing for movie performance, where the room will be darker. So should I just go for a Black Widow. I have also been reading up on formulas on some other forums (such Silver Fire and RS-MaxxMudd). The key for me is that I want to roll it, so it has to be a little forgiving.

All video signals will be sent via HDMI from my Pioneer Elite SC-05 AVR. My sources will be Popcorn Hour, Wii, PS3 (or another BD player).

What else do you need to know?

Total light control but want option for some ambient, white ceiling, Epson 6500UB, rollable, painted on drywall. Any help/opinions will be gratefully appreciated

And the answer is....

[Harpmaker]

Hi 1canuck2,

The first thing I will get out of the way is that I don't recommend any of the Mudd mixes (the developers name for them, not mine). I have personally tried Silver Fire and RS-MaxxMudd (the formula MM gave me in the C&S thread here) and both of them hot-spot for me and neither mix is neutral in color. Of the two problems, the hot-spotting is the worst offender, although the formula I used for SF was a long way from neutral. These mixes use too much mica-based paint imo. As I have said, I'm not against using mica-based paints in screen mixes (I'm even testing some as a possible alternative to the metallic ingredient in C&S in countries where Craft Smart Metallic Silver can't be found), but it has to be tempered with other paints or the negative aspects of mica become visible. The main ones are hot-spotting and/or shimmering in bright parts of the image. What some folks don't seem to understand is how mica works as a reflective agent. In a nutshell, mica refracts light as well as reflecting it, it is this refraction (breaking up light into colors) that does nasty things to the image if not controlled. Anyway, enough about that.

Your PJ, at the distance and screen size you give, is hitting that screen with about 14 fL. of light. While that would be enough for Black Widow, it doesn't allow for aging of the lamp or the use of econo or low-lamp mode. I think I would recommend a lighter mix. Which one? Ahhh, there's the rub.

Allow me to suggest a protocol for you; since you are going to try a primed wall as a screen (basically a white screen) for awhile (good idea ), depending on how you like that image will determine what to use next. Just going by the contrast specs of your PJ I doubt you will need a gray screen to help get black blacks in your image in a dark theater, but the more ambient light in the room the darker gray you will need to compensate for that light.

Since Scorpion is a mix of Cream&Sugar and Black Widow, you might want to try C&S alone first.

If you can get the Sherwin-Williams Luminous White in quarts (or you actually need a gallon of LW) you could use C&S #1, otherwise C&S #2 and C&S #3 will save you money on paint.

C&S #2 seems like a very complicated mix since 4 paints are used to mix it, but remember that NOTHING has to be measured and the 3 metallic paints will be side-by-side at Michael's.

C&S #3 can now be made with a custom tint of Valspar Ultra Premium Enamel, and only one other jar of paint must be added to the mix (like C&S #1).

If the C&S screen is too light for you then try Scorpion. Depending on how "too light" C&S was you might skip Scorpion N8.5 and go directly to Scorpion N8. You don't need to re-primer the screen before applying Scorpion, just paint it over the C&S.

BW and C&S are rollable so Scorpion is too.

[mechman]

^^^^^What he said^^^^^

The nice thing about all of this is that it does not require all of that measuring by the milliliter! That is by far, the biggest pain in the neck I have ever encountered in diy screens! I can honestly say that a root canal is more enjoyable than measuring thick paints by the milliliter with a small syringe. And if you're off by a milliliter, everything changes. I once asked MMan for some of his mixes for testing. He said he'd send them to me but he never did. That usually indicates something. Even the commercial folks who balked at sending me samples eventually did.

[1canuck2]

Thanks for the replies!

I am sold on the need to find a simple formula paint, exacting measurements concern me. When reading some of the passionate defences that have gone on about different formulas, one of the biggest defenses against people who criticize a paint is "well you mustn't have made it right". What I read from this is that its not easy to make it correctly, which knocks a few points off right away. So simple formulas are good! I don't know enough about the science of it all, but your refraction description makes sense as a reason to avoid mica based solutions.

Update: I think I have found a Wagner Control Spray in Canada! It's in Lowes, which only has a few stores around Canada apparently, one of which is ~45 minutes away. Thankfully a coworker lives in that city, so I have emailed him to see if he will pick one up for me. I take it that Scorpion/C&S are better (or easier) if sprayed than rolled, yes? Do they need to be thinned if sprayed? I am slightly concerned about using the sprayer directly on the wall in the window-less basement, I guess I just have to tape a mass of plastic drop cloths around me to ensure there's no overspray issues. How "overspray-ey" is a Wagner Control Spray?

Also, I was digging through Sherwin Williams website and cannot find a Luminous White. They have 204 "whites", none of which are Luminous White. I even went through all 204 looking at the RGB values but there was not a match. Is it an old colour?

So, if I am starting with C&S, which formula would you recommend as the best C&S?

#2 seems the most complicated, but still do-able assuming my Michael's has those paints, and I know I can get the Behr UPW no problem. It looks like Valspar is sold at Lowe's, which as I said above is 45 minutes away, so that's not an ideal base, and True Value is also over 40 minutes away...

Thanks for the help so far.

[mechman]

1canuck2 wrote:

I take it that Scorpion/C&S are better (or easier) if sprayed than rolled, yes?

They work either way. Rolling requires extra care to avoid roller lines and spraying requires extra setup work.

1canuck2 wrote:

Do they need to be thinned if sprayed? I am slightly concerned about using the sprayer directly on the wall in the window-less basement, I guess I just have to tape a mass of plastic drop cloths around me to ensure there's no overspray issues.

Thinning is a must. The control spray comes with a 'tool' for checking the viscosity of your paint. I cannot recall the 'rules' for it but it's something along the lines of the paint has to drip out of the tool within XX number of seconds. You thin the paint to reach that goal. It can be anywhere from 10% water to 30%. And yes, you'll want to mask off as much as you can.

1canuck2 wrote:

How "overspray-ey" is a Wagner Control Spray?

HVLP has very little overspray. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't mask off the area around where you are spraying.

1canuck2 wrote:

Also, I was digging through Sherman Williams website and cannot find a Luminous White. They have 204 "whites", none of which are Luminous White. I even went through all 204 looking at the RGB values but there was not a match. Is it an old colour?

Luminous White is being replaced by High Reflective White. I was gonna check that out a while back and I kind of forgot about it. I do that a lot - forget about things I'd like to check out.

[Harpmaker]

1canuck2, I would like to thank you for doing some homework into what screen paint you think would be best for your situation. It is all too easy to bite on the first mix that is presented as being the best, especially if the one presenting it to you sounds like Billy Mays.

Many people would be well served with a screen made with a simple neutral gray paint in a flat latex enamel. Those wanting to get a bit more performance out of their screen, or needing to combat significant amounts of ambient light, should go with mixes like Black Widow, Scorpion or Cream&Sugar.

And yes, I agree that simple is better! The formulae we have developed here at HTS are designed with that in mind. Why make things more difficult than they need to be for the user?

And talk about simple...

• C&S #1 and #3 require pouring 2 containers of paint into a bucket and mixing.
  
• BW requires pouring 3 containers (because AAA-F doesn't come in 8 oz. bottles) of paint into a bucket and mixing.
  
• C&S #2 requires pouring 4 containers of paint into a bucket and mixing.

Yeah, we like simple.

However; I think Wbassett's 'signature' quote says it best "Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein. In the process of making newer of better screen mixes we may have to add more components to mixes, or perhaps even require measuring some components (), but only if truly necessary; and you will never have to make small measurements of thick colored paints with any of our formulae.

I am not a roller. I simply never learned how to do it properly, and since I have a nice HVLP setup I probably never will learn how to roll; but it ain't rocket science - many people roll their screens successfully. I would say that it is easier to get a smooth screen by spraying, and a screen can be sprayed faster than it can be rolled; but spraying a screen will require about 2 contiguous hours of your time (depending on temperature and humidity) to do. Mech and I have to get serious about making up a spraying guide for the forum, I'll do one for my equipment and mech can do one for the Wagner CS.

I seem to have misplaced the links for the info, but Sherwin-Williams is discontinuing Luminous White in some of it's paint brands, sub-brands or whatever the correct term is. They have lines called 'Duration', 'Superpaint', 'Cashmere' and others. Some of these are available in the LW base and others aren't. And to clarify, Luminous White is a BASE COLOR, it is not a mixed color. You would have to call your store and check with them.

Of the base paints tested so far, SW LW makes the brightest C&S, but not by much. The most neutral C&S mix is #2 and it can be made with both Valspar and Behr ultra-white paints, and probably most other brands of ultra-white.

While C&S #2 is the most complicated mix developed so far at HTS, it is still simple to make. Let me explain: simply take a 32 fl.oz. (946 ml) can of ultra-white paint (Behr #1850 works well) and pour it into a mixing bucket along with a 8 fl.oz. bottle of Craft Smart Metallic Silver, a 4 fl.oz. bottle of Craft Smart Metallic Gold and a 4 fl.oz. bottle of Craft Smart Metallic Bronze. Mix throughly (I suggest a 'squirrel cage' mixing attachment and a cordless drill) and apply. I would also suggest taking a small amount of distilled water and washing out the paint containers and adding that water to the mix before stirring. You will get 48 fl.oz. (plus whatever water you may have added) of C&S. This is enough to paint a 48 square foot screen.

[wbassett]

Sorry to hear you're not a roller Don... how do you paint rooms inside your house?

Painting a screen really isn't as hard as anyone makes it out to be. If you can paint a room or hallway you can paint a screen! If you can paint a room or hallway but a particular screen paint leaves roller marks or other imperfections, well the problem isn't necessarily the person applying the paint it usually is the paint mix itself! That's something some people really don't want to admit.

A good quality paint should go on in one coat and without roller marks!

Okay that's true for a good quality house paint, but what about a screen paint? Well most of the junk some add to paint to make it a 'screen paint' is just that... junk!

Guys, as much as the community doesn't want to admit this let alone say it... a neutral matte finish is really all we are looking for. Sheen is always a bad characteristic for a screen. Show me a commercial screen with any noticeable amount of sheen.

Back to the question of the hour!
1canuck2 thank you thank you thank you for doing a little homework! I'd say you're probably 90% of your way there.

Definitely calibrate and get a baseline to a unity gain matte white reference screen, and Kilz2 makes for a great screen to get a baseline with.

Mainly you need to determine the optimal shade of gray for your setup. You're looking at around 15fL of brightness at the screen for 115"-120" diagonal screen. That's a very respectable amount of brightness and nothing that requires a screen with gain.

I totally understand the need for some room lighting on when playing games... it's nice to be able to see the controller buttons! Also it's really nice to be able to read the walkthrough book!

I'm going to recommend an N8 gray for you. You have the lumens to have a nice bright image with white whites and accurate and vibrant colors. N8 works well with lights on and lights off.

Some N8 options are Wilsonart Fashion Grey, OTS paints like Sherwin Williams Gray Screen, Winter Mountain, and some advanced mix paint options would be Scorpion N8. Of course there are many more N8 options out there and these are just some options.

You are going to have some issues with the white ceiling as in you will definitely create some ambient light of your own. Is it WAF that prevents you from going darker? Keep in mind, you don't have to go with black for the ceiling to get results. A coordinating color that's flat and darker than white will make a huge difference.

[1canuck2]

Thanks for the replies!

I am kind of driving myself nuts with all the homework to be honest, but I do feel its worthwhile!

The ceiling is white because it is a california ceiling and my contractor said there's nothing but white and anything he has ever seen done in non white california has been a disaster. And yes, from a WAF perspective, my wife was pleased to hear this as I think she was concerned about a darker ceiling.

I wanted to do the ceiling the same colour as the side walls, or perhaps one shade lighter, but it was not an option (and now the ceiling is done - today in fact!) If I could find an attractive WAF-positive way to do something for the ceiling in just the HT area, I would consider it, but I have no idea what, and how to make it look nice with a break in what is essentially a large L shaped room with one leg of the L being the HT area...

One "disaster" was at least averted this morning. My contractor had planned to have the california ceiling guy also do the soffits (horizontal parts that are in dark brown in my picture above) in white california!! We had a bit of a debate about it and I insisted that no, they had to be dark. Thankfully I won!

So, back to the screen. In all of the reading, the N8 or 8.5 formulas certainly seemed like the most appropriate to me.

Here's a theoretical question, would an N9 DIY paintt like C&S perform better than an OTS N8 like Sherwin Williams Gray Screen or Winter Mountain? Given that the purpose of the metallics in the formulas described here is to offer a reflective improvement over an OTS paint. And I can accept that an N9 OTS would not perform as well as an N9 DIY formula. But an N9 custom vs an N8 OTS, do the benefits of the N9 custom "make up" for the deficits of an N8 OTS? Or is that too apples and oranges? If its not that simple, what benefits would I get from an N8 OTS over an N9 DIY, and what negatives would I get?

Based on the discussion so far, I was leaning toward C&S #2, a couple more ingredients than the others, but still pretty straightforward to mix up.

Remind me again, what's involved in taking an C&S #2 to a Scorpion?

[wbassett]

1canuck2 wrote:

Here's a theoretical question, would an N9 DIY paintt like C&S perform better than an OTS N8 like Sherwin Williams Gray Screen or Winter Mountain? Given that the purpose of the metallics in the formulas described here is to offer a reflective improvement over an OTS paint. And I can accept that an N9 OTS would not perform as well as an N9 DIY formula. But an N9 custom vs an N8 OTS, do the benefits of the N9 custom "make up" for the deficits of an N8 OTS? Or is that too apples and oranges? If its not that simple, what benefits would I get from an N8 OTS over an N9 DIY, and what negatives would I get?

C&S is lighter than both Gray Screen or Winter Mountain and also has a higher gain. It certainly will be a brighter screen but blacks will also be a bit lighter and more like a dark gray than deep black. Whites will be significantly better though due to the lighter shade and extra gain. Your scatter light from your ceiling though is going to bounce back onto the screen and it will be more prone to washing out than the darker N8 shade of gray will.

So yeah it is a bit of apples to oranges. You may find though that C&S works just fine for you since you have control of your lighting and from your drawings it doesn't look like any lights will fall directly onto the screen. As far as benefits, well the obvious one is ease, and not by much. It definitely wouldn't be cost because the Silver Metallic is very inexpensive, I think 8 ounces cost me something like $3-$4. The only reason an OTS is easier is because you don't have to do anything except stir it and roll it. C&S requires you to add the Craft Smart Silver Metallic, stir and then roll it on!

As far as negatives, I really can't think of any. It's inexpensive enough to say give it a try and if it's too light for you, then go with a darker gray. You'll still be saving several hundreds/thousands over the price of a commercial screen.

Based on the discussion so far, I was leaning toward C&S #2, a couple more ingredients than the others, but still pretty straightforward to mix up.

Don will have to answer up about C&S #2. I personally would go with a Scorpion N8 because you have said you would have some lights on from time to time and the darker N8 gray will be more pleasing with the lights on but still light enough to perform exceptionlly well with the lights off. With the added gain and reflective qualities of the aluminum and CS Silver Metallic will give you a nice bright image with lights on or off.

Remind me again, what's involved in taking an C&S #2 to a Scorpion?

Like I mentioned, Don will have to answer about C&S #2, but making Scorpion N8 is simply mixing equal amounts of Black Widow with C&S. Think of it this way... this would let you try a test panel of Black Widow as well as a test panel of C&S and still have enough left to make a quart of Scorpion N8

[Harpmaker]

1canuck2 wrote:

Here's a theoretical question, would an N9 DIY paintt like C&S perform better than an OTS N8 like Sherwin Williams Gray Screen or Winter Mountain? Given that the purpose of the metallics in the formulas described here is to offer a reflective improvement over an OTS paint. And I can accept that an N9 OTS would not perform as well as an N9 DIY formula. But an N9 custom vs an N8 OTS, do the benefits of the N9 custom "make up" for the deficits of an N8 OTS? Or is that too apples and oranges? If its not that simple, what benefits would I get from an N8 OTS over an N9 DIY, and what negatives would I get?

The purpose of metallics in screen mixes is to make the paint perform like it is lighter than it's true N value in room light. The N7.5 BW performs under projection like it was a regular N8 or N8.25 gray paint, but it has the ambient light fighting ability and contrast enhancement of a N7.5 gray paint (which it is). C&S is about an N9 mix that performs under projection like it was a N9.3 or higher white paint, but it has the ambient light and contrast advantages of a N9 gray paint. I hope that came out right, it is a bit hard to explain. The key is to understand that projector light is directional while ambient light is not, or at least not coming from the same direction as the PJ light. I really shouldn't try to answer questions like this at 2:45 AM.

Remind me again, what's involved in taking an C&S #2 to a Scorpion?

For making a Scorpion mix, all C&S formulae are essentially the same; at least that was my goal when designing them. As Bill said, Scorpion N8 is simply a mixture of equal amounts of Black Widow and Cream&Sugar.

[1canuck2]

I get it, going in the other direction than what I was thinking (which actually makes more sense)...
So its fair to say that if I feel "risky" about going with an N8, I would be best to go with Scorpion because as an N8 its more N9-ish?

An N8 OTS won't perform like an N9 custom (they'll in fact be further apart). But an N8 custom will perform more like an N9 OTS (in the dark) but with ambient, it'll perform like an N8 OTS.

I know I am generalizing and the purists/theorists may not like that, but I am trying to put it in layman terms for the dirty masses like me.

I guess my concern with Scorpion at this point is it requires the most investment and is the most "custom". I can find all the ingredients for C&S #2 easily and locally. And I can make it for cheap enough. But to make BW, I have to drive (in opposite directions!) to get the AAA and Valspar paint. And for Scorpion, I have to do both. I am not whining, I accept that these are the formulas and appreciate your efforts (both in this thread, and more importantly in developing them).

I think I'll go with C&S#2 first for the sheer lazy convenience of it, then if I am not happy, I'll bite the bullet, get the BW ingredients, and make up some Scorpion.

[Harpmaker]

1canuck2 wrote:

I get it, going in the other direction than what I was thinking (which actually makes more sense)...
So its fair to say that if I feel "risky" about going with an N8, I would be best to go with Scorpion because as an N8 its more N9-ish?

You got it. BW, Scorpion and C&S all perform like a lighter OTS paint under projection.

An N8 OTS won't perform like an N9 custom (they'll in fact be further apart). But an N8 custom will perform more like an N9 OTS (in the dark) but with ambient, it'll perform like an N8 OTS.

That's close to the way I would expain it. There is nothing mystical or magical about screen mixes, they obey the same laws of physics as the rest of us.

I know I am generalizing and the purists/theorists may not like that, but I am trying to put it in layman terms for the dirty masses like me.

We don't run around in pristine white lab coats, we got a layer of dirt on us just like you.

I guess my concern with Scorpion at this point is it requires the most investment and is the most "custom". I can find all the ingredients for C&S #2 easily and locally. And I can make it for cheap enough. But to make BW, I have to drive (in opposite directions!) to get the AAA and Valspar paint. And for Scorpion, I have to do both. I am not whining, I accept that these are the formulas and appreciate your efforts (both in this thread, and more importantly in developing them).

Believe me, I hear ya! In these economic times most of us need to stretch our dollar until it almost snaps! BW can be made with many other paints besides Valspar, Behr #1850 works well too.

I think I'll go with C&S#2 first for the sheer lazy convenience of it, then if I am not happy, I'll bite the bullet, get the BW ingredients, and make up some Scorpion.

I've been thinking about a new mix that isn't anywhere near ready to go public, look for a PM from me.

[1canuck2]

Harpmaker wrote:

We don't run around in pristine white lab coats, we got a layer of dirt on us just like you.

I think you have a layer of paint on you, not a layer of dirt

Harpmaker wrote:

Believe me, I hear ya! In these economic times most of us need to stretch our dollar until it almost snaps! BW can be made with many other paints besides Valspar, Behr #1850 works well too.

Okay, I'll keep that in mind.

Harpmaker wrote:

I've been thinking about a new mix that isn't anywhere near ready to go public, look for a PM from me.

Oooh, sounds exciting. I'll await your PM.

[1canuck2]

Well, the renos are doe and the recliner's are in place, just waiting for something to look at when I sit in them!

Today I rolled two coats of Kilz2 on the screen wall (with about 2 hours in between coats). Tomorrow I am gong to lightly dry sand the wall (I bought 120 grit paper), wipe everything down, and then roll on a third (and possibly fourth) coat of Kilz2.

Is that long enough to wait before sanding? The last coat today was done around 6 pm, and I likely won't sand until 11 am-ish, so roughly a 17 hour "cure" on the paint before sanding...

After that, I'll get the PJ mount up and hang the PJ, so I can shoot some images on the wall!

[wbassett]

Honestly... two coats is enough. You really don't need any more coats of primer unless you're seeing bleed through or uneven coverage. The more coats you have, the more texture build up you'll have. I know you mentioned sanding, but with two coats you should be fine and unless you really want to sand you shouldn't have to.

I had over a dozen layers of different screen paints on my test screen before the texture started to become a visible issue.

Definitely make sure you do a calibration. You're being smart and way ahead of the game! The beauty of going with a D65 neutral screen is after you calibrate to a unity gain white reference screen (that's also neutral) you shouldn't have to adjust your colors when you go to your gray screen! With other DIY screen paints that claim to be neutral but aren't, I guarantee you'll be tweaking the color adjustments at the projector. That's a clear sign that the screen itself is having an adverse impact on the image, and that's the last thing anyone wants.

You never know though, you may like the white reference screen better too. Without doing a baseline though you'd never know. This is a step I see some of the other big time installers neglect to mention and I firmly believe it is because they don't want people to see a baseline reference and then how much the color changes from the reference screen to their 'superior' gray screen. Quite simply put, without any frame of reference just about anything can 'look' good. As the saying goes... "Ignorance is bliss".

We don't want ignorant bliss though. Our goal is to educate people so they can make a decision and know it was the right one. This way you'll have seen a white reference screen, see how the colors remain accurate with a true D65 gray screen... see the perceived contrast improve, and shadow detail dramatically improved.

1canuck2 I think when you're finished you're going to be very happy as well as know you have the right screen for your setup.

[1canuck2]

Thanks for the reply.

The builder painted the the side columns dark brown, but only primed the screen part of the wall with one coat of drywall primer. He happened to splash a brown paintbrush mark on the primed part, and after two coats of Kilz2 on top of this, I can still see it.

Also, I asked the drywaller to do a skim coat of joint compound across the whole screenwall, but unfortunately, he did not. I can still see a slight texture difference between the one horizontal joint and the drywall part of the wall, so part of the idea in doing multiple coats is to at least end up with an even texture across the whole wall.

I bought a gallon of Kilz2, and the wall I am painting is only 11' x 8', so I have lots of Kilz2 to spare! It only takes me about 45 minutes or so to do a coat of primer (including cleanup), so the only cost to me in doing more coats right now is my time...

BTW, I bought a 1/4" nap roller, which was even smoother than the 3/8" - 1/2" nap recommended elsewhere, should this be okay? It should result in a smoother finish providing my technique doesn't suck.

BTW, I was able to find a Wagner Control Spray! So for the screen paint I plan to spray it on, which should help with the texture issue.

Given that I do feel I have to do three or four coats of primer, would you then recommend that I do sand after this second coat has cured? And if so, is a 17 hour cure long enough before sanding?

I've never sanded a wall before, I assume its gonna be messy... As I say, I bought 120 grit paper sheets for use with a 3"x8" sanding block (the kind with the handle and a foam "underpad" against which the paper is mounted). Can I sand the whole wall with one sheet of paper, or should I change the sheet? How do you clean the paint dust off of the sheet? Given that I am dry sanding, water doesn't seem to be the cleaner of choice... Sorry if these are dumb questions.

[Harpmaker]

They are not dumb questions at all, I just wish I had better answers for you. Perhaps others here have sanded Kilz2 and can recommend the proper method and equipment.

My guess is that 17 hours is not enough time before sanding, but it's just a guess. If the paint isn't ready to sand it will "pill" or form little balls of paint between the sandpaper and the wall as you sand. If it's really not ready it might even pull up areas of paint.

As I say, I've never sanded Kilz2 (or any other primer), but I think I would use drywall screens (and probably 220 grit) to do the job. I think regular sandpaper will quickly "load" and get paint in between the pieces of grit on the paper thus greatly diminishing the cutting power of the paper. Drywall screens are very open and allow the paint being literally scraped off the wall to fall through the screen. But all this is just a guess.

My handle "harpmaker" wasn't just pulled from a hat; I took a year-long course to learn how to make Celtic harps. My instructor (who is a real harpmaker by trade) mentioned that he always had problems (pilling) sanding the initial layers of lacquer on the harp because it wasn't truly "dry" (this may take several weeks) before he had to sand it to prepare for spraying on another coat. I was looking at sanding stuff at Lowe's or Home Depot and spotted the drywall screen in 220 grit and got some. He is using it to do the initial lacquer sanding on his harps to this day.

[1canuck2]

Well, based on your input and some digging, I changed my plan slightly. I rolled a third coat of Kilz2 on this morning without sanding. I am gonna setup the PJ and shoot on the wall as is to get my size and location dialed in and run a calibration, etc (Maybe even watch a movie!). I'll leave it setup this way for at least a week to let the Kilz fully cure.

Once the screen is dialed in location wise, I'll mask off and roll the brown "surround" paint on the wall and leave it to cure for another week. Then I'll mask off the screen and sand the screen portion of the Kilz2 and spray the screen. At this point, this is prolly 2 weeks away!

Oh, and I picked up the 220 "grit" drywall screens you mentioned. Thanks for the tip.

[1canuck2]

Progress!

I got the PJ mounted today!! The PJ lens is roughly 16' 2" back from the screen wall and I am currently shooting a roughly 116" diagonal. I am gonna bump it up to 120" and see what I think.

I haven't worked out all my measurements yet (screen height, etc) and there's no sound yet, but hopefully over the next few evenings I'll get some more pieces in place and start tweaking.

What's the best calibration method? I own the Digital Video Essentials DVD from a few years ago, will this be sufficient given that its not a 1080p disc? I'll be playing it on a Samsung BD-P1500 Blu-ray player through the video switching circuit of my Pioneer SC-05 AVR.

Will the upconvert affect the calibration accuracy? Should I calibrate by sending through the native signal instead (but them I'll be upconverting most of my watching to 1080p, so I'd never be watching it at the res with which I calibrated).

[1canuck2]

So, today we watched our first movie! I spent yesterday making my speaker cables and running the remaining pieces for the "temporary, but we can watch a movie" setup. This morning I did a quick MCACC setup on my Pio AVR and gathered the fam for a viewing of Bolt.

My eyes are roughly 11.5' from the screen and I was shooting a 124" diagonal! I think the picture was a good size but was fearful my wife would want it smaller. After the movie was over she said (without prompting) "I think the picture was a good size. At first I though it was too big, but once the movie started it was fine"!! So, I'll be targeting a 120"-124" screen size once I work out some things like screen and riser height.

I was playing with the calc at ProjectorCentral and it estimates that I get 13fl at 124" with a Screen Gain of 1.0. But what is the gain for scorpion painted on a wall? I saw the link in mech's sig but could not find Scorpion or Cream & Sugar in the list.

Also, do the screen gain numbers on PC assume the lamp is in high mode? I am running mine in low, so what would be the typical impact of this?

[Harpmaker]

1canuck2 wrote:

I was playing with the calc at ProjectorCentral and it estimates that I get 13fl at 124" with a Screen Gain of 1.0. But what is the gain for scorpion painted on a wall? I saw the link in mech's sig but could not find Scorpion or Cream & Sugar in the list.

The gain values of those mixes haven't been measured yet. Mech should be doing them soon.

BTW, the minimum fL. numbers we state for mixes uses the default 1.0 gain value at PJC. At least that's the way I do it.

Also, do the screen gain numbers on PC assume the lamp is in high mode? I am running mine in low, so what would be the typical impact of this?

My understanding is that they are for the default mode of the PJ, which most of the time is high or normal. A few PJ's actually default to low or econo mode. I believe they also under-value the fL. number by 25% to account for some lamp aging, but I may have misunderstood that.

As a very rough guide, I would take off 25% from high mode for using econo mode.

I know most people are on a shoe-string budget, but it really helps to actually have a light meter to take accurate illumination readings of your PJ; then there is no guessing or assuming involved. An inexpensive Lux meter is all that is needed. I got mine for something like $35 at Amazon.com. These are not photographic light meters, they are more sensitive that those (and cheaper!). They do a great job of measuring the light output of flashlights too. I mean who doesn't want to know exactly how bright their flashlight is right? Being more serious, such a meter will let you monitor just how much brightness you PJ lamp loses through use. It will also allow you to measure the real Contrast Ratio of your PJ.

[1canuck2]

Well, a long time has passed and I have some updates. I am now at the point where the only thing in the way of a DIY screen formula is my procrastination...

Here's a shot of the room as it stands right now:

The screen is three coats of Kilz2 primer.

I have run through a calibration with a Spyder3 and saw improved results. I would like to run through the calib again to recheck all my numbers but its, uh, so boring/time consuming to do.

I can also say that I am very happy with the results I see just on the Kilz2. I can tell my blacks are not black enough, but it doesn't yet bother me.

My gauge is this: Widescreen content adds black bars top and bottom. Blacks displayed in the picture are indistinguishable from the black bars top and bottom, mean my greyscale calibration /contrast/brightness must be pretty much bang on. Right?
However, the blacks are nowhere near as dark as the brown paint on my wall around the screen (which is not surprising).

How black would a DIY get my blacks compared to the chocolate brown paint surrounding my screen?

The other reason I have not got to DIYing is I am scared to spray with the Wagner Control Spray. I am not looking forward to using it and did not get a chance to practice outside before the weather got cold. I'll have to mask the hell out of the room and am fearful that I will not spray evenly. Right now, my screen surface (rollered) is very nice with no obvious lap marks, etc...

So, do I stop at "good enough", or forge ahead with a Scorpion spray job? I need some encouraging and confidence building, because right now we are thoroughly enjoying the theatre as is.

BTW, if you wanna see a nifty 3D panorama of my theatre, check this link:
http://fieldofview.com/flickr/?page=...t/4081995654/] (requires Shockwave Player)

[Harpmaker]

1canuck2 wrote:

... I can also say that I am very happy with the results I see just on the Kilz2. I can tell my blacks are not black enough, but it doesn't yet bother me.

This is key; there is no law anywhere (that I know of ) that says you have to make your screen to a given standard. Your satisfaction is all that is required.

My gauge is this: Widescreen content adds black bars top and bottom. Blacks displayed in the picture are indistinguishable from the black bars top and bottom, mean my greyscale calibration /contrast/brightness must be pretty much bang on. Right?

I would assume so, but I'll let others with more experience with PJ calibration answer that one.

However, the blacks are nowhere near as dark as the brown paint on my wall around the screen (which is not surprising).

Is this with all room lights out and only the PJ on? I find that even in my all-white shop (where my PJ is) when the lights go out my screen looks like a window into another reality and I focus on the image rather than on the surrounding walls/floor/ceiling.

How black would a DIY get my blacks compared to the chocolate brown paint surrounding my screen?

At some point, as you go darker and darker with your screen paint, I would expect you would reach a point where the PJ "spill" on your dark wall would appear to have the same blacks as the screen, but this point depends on the combination of many things (PJ lumens, PJ contrast, scene brightness, screen gray shade etc.) and finally on your ability to see the difference. As a guess, I would say that the screen would have to be pretty dark before blacks looked as they do when projected on a dark brown (which is really a dark yellowish-orange!).

The other reason I have not got to DIYing is I am scared to spray with the Wagner Control Spray. I am not looking forward to using it and did not get a chance to practice outside before the weather got cold. I'll have to mask the hell out of the room and am fearful that I will not spray evenly. Right now, my screen surface (rollered) is very nice with no obvious lap marks, etc...

So, do I stop at "good enough", or forge ahead with a Scorpion spray job? I need some encouraging and confidence building, because right now we are thoroughly enjoying the theatre as is.

Since you have run out of warm weather for the year, I would recommend you enjoy your screen as-is until you can get some practice time in with the Wagner. Get a feel for how the gun works and how much over-spray it produces (which isn't much, but some). My experience is that if I'm afraid I might mess something up when I'm doing it, I usually do. It's a mind-set that almost ensures something will go wrong. Paint with confidence, not trepidation.

That said, even if you decide to stay with a white screen I would recommend eventually painting over the Kilz2. It is a primer and not designed to be used as a top-coat. All my Kilz2 samples have visibility discolored over time (about 6 months) if not coated with regular paint. And while spraying will generally produce a smoother screen than rolling, BW/Scorpion/C&S can be rolled.

BTW, if you wanna see a nifty 3D panorama of my theatre, check this link:
http://fieldofview.com/flickr/?page=...t/4081995654/] (requires Shockwave Player)

That is cool! For folks that don't know, you can control the panorama using your mouse and also zoom into and out of the image while right-clicking the mouse.

Two things: 1. I didn't know you were a member of identical septuplets, and 2. I don't know what you or your brother are doing to that right-hand speaker, but it's unseemly.

[1canuck2]

Harpmaker wrote:

Is this with all room lights out and only the PJ on? I find that even in my all-white shop (where my PJ is) when the lights go out my screen looks like a window into another reality and I focus on the image rather than on the surrounding walls/floor/ceiling.

This is with the lights out. I would agree with your "window into another reality" statement for ym experience. Which is the point of the brown paint mostly, to make it be non-distracting.

Harpmaker wrote:

Since you have run out of warm weather for the year, I would recommend you enjoy your screen as-is until you can get some practice time in with the Wagner. Get a feel for how the gun works and how much over-spray it produces (which isn't much, but some).

The most I was able to do was fill it with water and spray my brick work. I've never really worked with a sprayer before. I am basically going to cover every surface in the room with plastic drop cloth since I am very afraid of the mess it could make.

Harpmaker wrote:

My experience is that if I'm afraid I might mess something up when I'm doing it, I usually do. It's a mind-set that almost ensures something will go wrong. Paint with confidence, not trepidation.

I would agree with that. I'll find a 4x8 sheet of hardboard and spray multiple coats of something on it, but its going to be a while.

Harpmaker wrote:

That said, even if you decide to stay with a white screen I would recommend eventually painting over the Kilz2. It is a primer and not designed to be used as a top-coat. All my Kilz2 samples have visibility discolored over time (about 6 months) if not coated with regular paint. And while spraying will generally produce a smoother screen than rolling, BW/Scorpion/C&S can be rolled.

So, what if I were to mix up some Scorpion and roll it. Will it "act" much different than the Kilz2 from an application standpoint? My theory being, if I could satisfactorily roll the K2, surely I can do the same with Scorpion... If I am happy with the result, then perhaps I am done? If not, I can lightly sand and then spray a few coats on top next spring (or force myself to learn the Wagner sooner). Also, if I mix up enough to both roll and spray, should it be fine to store the Scorpion for a few months in the can or is it best to use it soon after mixing? There's nothing in there that would make me think it can't be stored...

Harpmaker wrote:

That is cool! For folks that don't know, you can control the panorama using your mouse and also zoom into and out of the image while right-clicking the mouse.

Two things: 1. I didn't know you were a member of identical septuplets, and 2. I don't know what you or your brother are doing to that right-hand speaker, but it's unseemly.

As you can guess, the image is stitched together from multiple shots and I am in each one. As I told my kids, Daddy is pretending to climb on the speaker. I will say, I love my Paradigm Studio speakers though...

Oh, don't forget to look down.

[Harpmaker]

1canuck2 wrote:

The most I was able to do was fill it with water and spray my brick work. I've never really worked with a sprayer before. I am basically going to cover every surface in the room with plastic drop cloth since I am very afraid of the mess it could make.

Perhaps Mech can address this soon, but I have never used the Wagner CS. All I can say is that my compressor-feed HVLP normally has around a two foot maxium area beyond the screen that has any danger of getting liquid paint over-spray on it. Other items within about 8 feet might get some paint DUST on them, but it literally is dust (as in very small droplets of paint that have dried before landing on the object). I understand your concern though, better safe than sorry!

I will also say that shooting plain water is much different than spraying thinned latex paint. The water will make a finer mist and a wider "fan". I have found that even properly thinned paint will only have 1/2 to 3/4 the fan width of water through my HVLP gun.

So, what if I were to mix up some Scorpion and roll it. Will it "act" much different than the Kilz2 from an application standpoint? My theory being, if I could satisfactorily roll the K2, surely I can do the same with Scorpion... If I am happy with the result, then perhaps I am done? If not, I can lightly sand and then spray a few coats on top next spring (or force myself to learn the Wagner sooner). Also, if I mix up enough to both roll and spray, should it be fine to store the Scorpion for a few months in the can or is it best to use it soon after mixing? There's nothing in there that would make me think it can't be stored...

Scorpion™ is a bit more than a full "N step" down from Kilz2 and will appear visibly darker in room light, but compared to the dark brown of your wall it will still be very light. You will get darker blacks with Scorpion™ than with Kilz2, and also richer colors. How much difference there is varies from person to person due to personal preferences and perceptions. I don't think you would regret using Scorpion™.

Scorpion™ is a reflective mix and will require a bit more care in rolling that Kilz2, but not an inordinate amount (it ain't rocket science ). Many have rolled BW/Scorpion/C&S with no problems; And if you like the appearance of Scorpion™, you're done!

BW/Scorpion/C&S stores just like regular latex paint (don't let it freeze!). Some have reported a problem storing BW mixes that used Black Jack Aluminum, but BJA isn't an authorized BW ingredient.

As you can guess, the image is stitched together from multiple shots and I am in each one. As I told my kids, Daddy is pretending to climb on the speaker. I will say, I love my Paradigm Studio speakers though...

Oh, don't forget to look down.

I had a bit of fun at the end of my last post, I hope you didn't mind. That really is a cool panorama, I enjoyed it very much! Yep, I looked down... building a HT is exhausting work!