First-timer DIY Screen

**mechman** · **07-30-09, 07:51 PM**

My opinion of DVE and Avia are that they are good for basic white and black level adjustments - brightness and contrast. But that's about it. They do include a color filter(s) for adjusting color as well. But I found that it didn't do that great of a job when I checked it with my colorimeter.

To really get your pj calibrated, you need either the equipment/software or a professional calibrator.

The nice thing about a D65 screen is that if your pj is calibrated, you only need to adjust white and black levels for your screen.

**mechman** · **07-30-09, 07:52 PM**

I forgot to add.... if you're planning on a professional calibration, it's best to wait until you have 300 or more hours on your bulb/pj.

**xflapx** · **08-01-09, 07:21 PM**

so you really think factory default settings are better than that produced with a DVE calibration?

**mechman** · **08-01-09, 10:14 PM**

Quote:

xflapx wrote:

so you really think factory default settings are better than that produced with a DVE calibration?

Well if you were to get a BenQ W5000, which I have exposure to

, I'd recommend using the factory settings 'User Mode1' with 'warm' selected for color temp. Those were closest to D65 out of the box. And then use Avia or DVE to adjust your white and black levels (contrast and brightness).

You never know what you're going to get out of the box with a particular pj. But I do know you will more than likely have to adjust your black and white levels. The only other thing they offer is the color filters. Sharpness and such can easily be set by eye and I've never used any of these discs for that. They do include an audio setup portion on those discs to that I've never used. You may want to try them out. Me? I'm the non-audio nut moderating at a mainly audio forum.

Go and download the avs hd disc and use that. It's free.

**custard** · **08-02-09, 07:03 AM**

Quote:

xflapx wrote:

Oh i fully understand, what I was saying is that we could nail it down specifically, and say that for an N8 mix, ignore 0-40 IRE, for a N9 mix, ignore 0-30 IRE, or whatever. Otherwise the graph is somewhat misleading to newcomers. Not that it wouldn't be common knowledge to the testers, but it might help make it more user-friendly for the less informed folk like myself and Harpmaker.

ive had abit more of a think about this today.

it may be abit too difficilt to quantify how much readings will differ in the low IRE range for diferent N* panels. my colorimeter inaccuracy at lower IRE is not going to be equal to other colorimeters

my comment thet colorimeter readings for a screen with 50% reflectance at 40IRE would have the same discrepancy as a screen with 100% reflactance at 20 IRE is not correct. it may hold true for a projector setup to a gammma of 1 but definitely not for one setup to for 2.2 gamma as the luminance curve is not linear.

the exponential relationship would also mean that the margin of discrepancy between say an N7 and N9 at low IRE's would be even less than i originally thought.

**xflapx** · **08-02-09, 03:53 PM**

I don't have a concern for the black and white levels, I don't need a special tool to set those, but for colors, wouldn't you imagine that using some color filters would put me closer, statistically speaking, than leaving it at default?

custard that makes perfect sense, I'm mainly trying to instigate a method to have some data available that provides accurate and distinct differentiation between screens/mixes that a basic to intermediate DIY'er could reference without reading for hours on end. Really in the DIY mix world there aren't THAT many options, so I think a compilation of data/screenshots/descriptions could be invaluable to these forums.

**xflapx** · **08-02-09, 05:56 PM**

P.S. yes I would be willing to help, in fact I'd be willing to orchestrate, I just need some brains behind my brawn.

Oh and I begin building the screen today. Frame and primer should be done in about 3 days time.

**xflapx** · **08-04-09, 08:47 AM**

So I put together the frame and substrate two days ago, attached the french cleat and hung the screen yesterday and put on two coats of kilz premium.

I ran into a hitch. On my second coat I got lazy and didn't switch my lamp to the other side of the screen as I was painting. As a result I have some texture on the left side where I painted the coat too thick. I went to lowes and picked up a 180 grit sanding sponge and the kilz pretty much laughed at me. I don't have a belt sander handy, is there a method for sanding down the kilz? I want to sand the left side down and put one more coat on to even things out before I begin with the BW, so until I resolve this I've decided not to go further. Help oh mighty titans of DIY screens. Help.

P.S. It's not that bad really, the only time I can see the texture is when I'm square with the projector, but I'm afraid that BW will only increase the error.

D

**mechman** · **08-04-09, 09:33 AM**

Darin,

What are we talking about texture wise? Roller marks? If it's a roller mark, a distinct line from the edge of the roller, I'd sand it out. If it's texture from the roller cover, you may not need to sand it. When you say you can see it when you're square with the pj, how far away are you standing? Can you see it from where you would be sitting? Also, you couldn't sand the Kilz at all with the sponge? I'd be certain that the paint is completely dry before attempting sanding. If it's not completely dry, you can have a mess on your hands.

When it comes to texture, my opinion is that texture isn't really that bad. Most folks who say texture is bad haven't seen as many commercial screen samples as I have.

Most all of them have some sort of texture to them. And some of them you'd be shocked at how much texture there is. And since the majority of these commercial products are actually painted, I wouldn't worry too much about a little bit of texture that you can see up close only.

I'll be in and out all day. We'll get this fixed!

**xflapx** · **08-04-09, 10:33 AM**

The marks aren't from the edge of the roller, but from an excess of paint that resulted in these wavy vertical roller marks. I'm not concerned entirely too much with texture, the main thing that bothers me is that the right side is smooth as can be, so I know I could have done better. The left side is noticeable when square with the projector (as in the light from the projector is reflecting off the screen and directly to your viewing position) from as far away as 9-10 feet, only when viewing a white image. So yes it's worst case scenario, but it's enough to upset me. I don't mind making mistakes when I decide to do something on a whim, but with the amount of planning and preparation that has gone into this project, mistakes are unacceptable. I had a fan on the screen for about 2 hours before I attempted to sand, and the sponge had NO effect. I didn't want to press too hard, since it was only two hours later, but in any sanding I've done in the past even light strokes produce a very small amount of particles. I used reasonable pressure and produced absolutely no paint dust on the sand sponge. It's a testament to kilz I suppose... Still I need to figure something out. Any ideas are appreciated, I'll go home and try to use more pressure with a sponge and check back on the forums and see what you guys come up with. As always thank you for your guidance.

D

**mechman** · **08-04-09, 11:28 AM**

I would think that it would sand...

Are you using the vinyl as a substrate? Did the Kilz soak in to it? Try sanding it again and report back.

**xflapx** · **08-04-09, 12:30 PM**

Will do

**xflapx** · **08-04-09, 05:53 PM**

I'm using hardboard as a substrate. Using a 180 grit sand sponge some very fine particles started to come off, but it would take 4 hours non-stop to smooth out the texture over that much surface area. I'm either going to ask around and see if anyone has a belt sander or get a block and some low grit paper from Lowe's. The texture, after further testing, is visible as far away as 14 feet and that is unacceptable, so it's definitely not something I can just forget about. I'll find a way to sand it and lay 2 fresh coats of kilz to even it out before I start the BW application.

**Harpmaker** · **08-04-09, 06:02 PM**

As a rule, any mix that adds gain compared to flat paint would tend to accent texture. The problem really comes when there is a significant texture difference in the screen surface. At least that is my understanding.

I just tried sanding a test panel of Kilz Premium with some 150 grit aluminum oxide sandpaper and it sanded fine.

I suspect the trouble came from the KP not being dry, it was kind of like trying to sand rubber. The panel I sanded above is a week or two old - dry for sure.

**xflapx** · **08-04-09, 06:09 PM**

it's been about 18 hours since I applied the 2nd coat. Is that too soon?

**Harpmaker** · **08-04-09, 07:28 PM**

Quote:

xflapx wrote:

it's been about 18 hours since I applied the 2nd coat. Is that too soon?

I don't know. Is there a dry or cure time given on the can? If the problem was that the primer was resisting the sandpaper I guess it couldn't hurt to try sanding again.

I wish I could be more help.

**xflapx** · **08-04-09, 10:09 PM**

Alright, after a good hour of sanding and 2 more coats of kilz I'm happy. I guess it's better I made my mistakes on the primer... I found my camera before I started painting, took one shot and the batteries died, so I haven't gone out to get more yet. When I do I'll take a few shots. The kilz is already a drastic improvement over the drywall, really bright and lacking definition in the blacks, but overall a solid picture. Can't wait to see BW improve the situation. My ex gave me 32 yards of black fabric, so I'm going to line the walls around the screen with it to absorb a lot of the reflected light, should be a significant improvement over the off-white paint. Just need to put together the velvet frame, hang the fabric, build the riser, and mount the projector. All in all it won't be complete for another week or two, but I'm already extremely impressed with the picture quality and the over-all feel of a "theater room."

**xflapx** · **08-06-09, 12:20 AM**

Applied the first coat of BW tonight. Absolutely beautiful image. Shadow detail and color are amazing. Even in econo mode it feels a touch bright, so I need to adjust some settings, but I couldn't be happier with the mix. It was extremely easy to apply, much easier than the kilz in fact. No visible lines, didn't dry nearly as quick as I thought. I was able to make several strokes decreasing in pressure and overlap each time, and the lines seemed to melt into each other until they were continuous. Played a few blurays on a PS3, as well as some high definition matroska files off the PC and everything looked wonderful. I can't say enough good things about this mix. At the distance I'm throwing, I could stand to lose a few fL and have the perfect image, so it should do really well as the bulb matures. Thanks for putting so much time into Black Widow, your efforts are nothing short of extraordinary. BTW I have almost 2 qts of BW left over, I'll apply another coat tomorrow for good measure, but if any of you would like the rest I'd be happy to send the excess, or a sample for color testing at least.

**custard** · **08-06-09, 02:56 AM**

pics please!

**xflapx** · **08-06-09, 10:00 AM**

Will do. I'd like to finish the velvet-wrapped trim first, so hopefully today I'll be able to present the screen as it deserves. I'm also awaiting my friend and his nikon, since my camera is... 12 years old and was 200 dollars then. My phone takes better stills and it was free.

I used PJC to calculate my screen size and didn't even consider the possibility that they might round numbers. A little disappointing, but I can still manage it i think. I have a 1" border on the sides and a 1.5" border on the top and bottom to attach my trim for a true 16:9 ratio. I can adjust to whatever I want on both the PJ and my PC, but I'd rather maintain the intended resolution.

So in conclusion, expect shots soon.

**xflapx** · **08-06-09, 05:18 PM**

So I cut the MDF trim, wrapped it in velvet and it looks incredible. The more I think about it, however, the more I realize I'm concerned about how to attach it to the screen. I can't really glue it because there is velvet stapled to the backside of the trim. If I nail it down with finishing nails I run the risk of damaging the velvet. The screen isn't perfectly flat (it curves inward as much as 1/3 of an inch at the center) so I can't hang the frame. I have 1.5 inches on the vertical edges and 1 inch on the horizontal edges (so 3 inches and 2 inches total, respectively) to work with.

Go.

**xflapx** · **08-07-09, 12:00 AM**

So these were taken with my friend's D90. It was a first attempt and I'm not real sure about settings and such. The first 5 images were taken freehand. The light is the ceiling light with 2 60w bulbs in it.

Light on, room setup up. Nothing is finished yet but it's close enough to show some shots.

Lights out.

Angle shot.

Tripod.

Lights out.

Lights on.

The tripod was approx 13 ft from the screen. Some of the shots push blue and it has something to do with a camera setting i don't know about. He took all the shots in like 5 minutes as I frantically searched through a 720p compressed matroska video file for some good pics. I have black fabric lining the back wall. I'm going to do the same on the side walls as well. The trim isn't on yet because I'm still concerned about how to secure it to the screen. You can see how little real estate I'm dealing with in the lights on shots.

**mechman** · **08-07-09, 11:37 AM**

Looks good Darin! One of the ways to get an accurate picture color wise is with a neutral gray card in the photos. Believe it or not, you could use your screen for this!

Here's a thread on it. I use mine for all pictures I take ensuring accurate colors.

**clark17** · **08-10-09, 01:45 PM**

Quote:

xflapx wrote:

So I cut the MDF trim, wrapped it in velvet and it looks incredible. The more I think about it, however, the more I realize I'm concerned about how to attach it to the screen. I can't really glue it because there is velvet stapled to the backside of the trim. If I nail it down with finishing nails I run the risk of damaging the velvet. The screen isn't perfectly flat (it curves inward as much as 1/3 of an inch at the center) so I can't hang the frame. I have 1.5 inches on the vertical edges and 1 inch on the horizontal edges (so 3 inches and 2 inches total, respectively) to work with.

Go.

I cannot comment on any pictures, because I cannot view them at work...

, so I'll comment on them after...

I'm in the same boat as you, I want to use 3" ro 4" MDF trim (black velvet rapped) on a drywall (with Scorpion N8 paint).... I'm still a 1-2 month away (I'm working on my basement) from doing it.... Myself I was going to use something like Rigid Hangers
, Frame Hangers, Hangman Picture & Mirror Hangers or perhaps like you are thinking nail the frame with Wall dog screws... Also what I was going to try is to drill a hole in my 'sample' 1x3x5 strapping rapped in valvet to see if it is going to damage velevet.... I wonder if glewing velvet instead of using staples would help...

From what I understand quiet few people used 3m spray adhasive from HD...

Hopefully this will give you few ideas....

**xflapx** · **08-10-09, 03:32 PM**

I finished the trim. I stapled the velvet to the backside of the trim then used wire brads to hammer the trim into the frame of the screen. I bent about 6 of them and had to start over on each one, but the velvet took no damage and the end result is pleasing. Right now I'm debating buying a ceiling mount, building a shelf to install in the ceiling, or essentially setting up a standing shelf in between the lazy boys that are on two separate risers in the rear row. All have their advantages, the ceiling mounts wouldn't be subject to getting bumped into, the floor standing wouldn't require hard-wiring the projector, the ceiling mounts would have a better throw angle, the floor standing could be set farther back to improve on the incredibly bright picture I'm facing right now, so on, so forth. The too-bright image is leading the cons right now, so much so I think it's going to be the deciding factor. Even with BW, closed aperatures, etc etc, I either destroy the details in the blacks, or I blind myself anytime a whiter image appears.

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