Basement almost ready for Scorpion N8 (several questions though)

**Harpmaker** · **09-25-09, 11:15 AM**

Quote:

clark17 wrote:

Quick question:

The projected wall (to be dark reddish/burgundy) will require a coat of tinted grey primer. Can I use this primer to paint area where the Scorpion N8 will be? The Scorpion N8 mix is darker than tinted Primer.
If that was ok, it would safe me some work as my projector is not mounted yet so I don’t have watch where I paint with the tinted grey primer (as I would paint whole wall). At the same time I don’t want this tinted primer to have any affect on Scorpion N8’s performance….

Others with more experience in this area can jump in here, but my understanding is that for dark colors the primer should be tinted close to the top coat color.

Again, I hope someone with more actual experience can provide a more clear-cut answer, but I would feel better if a white primer was used under the Scorpion N8. While the Scorpion mix is quite opaque the brightness of the undercoat may still have a small effect on brightness of the final screen. In a pinch you could probably get by using a gray primer under Scorpion, but I've never personally tested that combination so I don't know for sure.

**clark17** · **09-25-09, 12:16 PM**

Quote:

Harpmaker wrote:

Others with more experience in this area can jump in here, but my understanding is that for dark colors the primer should be tinted close to the top coat color.

Thanks Don for your feedback

At S&W store guys gave me some black tint for me to mix it with my primer and paint walls to be painted with a dark red paint. Also for my other walls to be orange, they suggested to add a tad of black tint to the primer too. So it looks like primer might be tinted to grey too

I remember guy at the store looked at the orange sample specifications and he told me how many oz. of black tint to add to the primer... I'm sure (at least I hope) this guys know what they are talking about

Since I'll make the tint lighter than Scorpion N8, I'll use under it. Unless someone will advise me otherwise...

This would save me some work as opose to priming wall around the screen area. My PJ is not setup yet.... At worst I'll roll 2 or 3 coats of Scropion N8...

**Harpmaker** · **09-25-09, 12:52 PM**

I guess it makes sense to simply use a gray primer instead of a colored one since what you want to do is more to match the N value of the top coat and not necessarily the color itself. You want the primer to be about the same shade as your top coat AS IF THE TOP COAT WAS JUST A GRAY ITSELF.

I think you would be safe to use the gray primer as long as it was about the same N value as the Scorpion. Lighter would be better than darker.

**clark17** · **09-25-09, 01:24 PM**

Thanks Don

Hmmm.... I guess if tinted primer will be too dark for Scorpion N8 I can always go with BW instead

**mechman** · **09-25-09, 02:33 PM**

I wouldn't worry about the primer. Very little, if any, light will reach it. And very little, if any, will make it back through as reflected light. Now if you were adding a bunch of polyurethane.....

**clark17** · **09-25-09, 03:59 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

I wouldn't worry about the primer. Very little, if any, light will reach it. And very little, if any, will make it back through as reflected light. Now if you were adding a bunch of polyurethane.....

Thank you Mech

Are you saying I should be adding polyurethane to Scorpion N8 mix? If I'm not mistaken I've read somewhere polyurethane actually it is not recommended by some peeps as it turns 'yellowish', creating color shift over time.

Have you tried it? I believe Tiddler was/is big on it, so is MM.

**mechman** · **09-25-09, 05:02 PM**

Quote:

clark17 wrote:

Are you saying I should be adding polyurethane to Scorpion N8 mix?

Most definitely not!! It was tongue-in-cheek!

**Harpmaker** · **09-25-09, 05:05 PM**

No, no, no, don't add any polyurethane to BW or any mix we have designed so far!!!

While we have yet to experiment properly with clear mediums added to BW, Mech has shown that when used as a top-coat they kill the benefit the added aluminum gives the mix!

Testing clear mediums as an addition to our mixes is something that we have been meaning to do for some time now, but it is "on the back burner" and not a high priority since BW, Scorpion and C&S work just fine without it.

I did do some testing early in last Spring when I added a healthy shot of Liquitex Fabric Medium to some BW to test it's use on a vinyl window shade (which seems to have worked well), but I never got back to further testing. I simply didn't have the time this Summer.

While others are recommending water-based poly be added to screen mixes, and seem to get away with it, I still have my reservations. If I was going to experiment with clears I would use either vinyl or acrylic based clears and not polyurethanes.

**clark17** · **09-25-09, 10:40 PM**

you've almost got me there

**clark17** · **10-02-09, 03:24 PM**

So I've painted the wall with a dark red color (pictures to follow). I just cannot believe how sharp it looks with the lights on and pitch black without lights

I've decided with help from my better half to leave ceiling white for now as dark ceiling would make basement look smaller (it is already low). If everything goes well (keeping my fingers crossed) I should have Scorpion N8 rolled on my drywall...

**clark17** · **10-06-09, 03:30 PM**

Sorpion N8 has been applied, last night

. Right after I did fire up my projector and I was a little nervous as I could see all the rolling marks (I've used 1/4 nap, 2 coats)

. With time as the paint was slowly drying up the marks begin to disappear

Overall I'm very happy and like other peeps said, my previous experiments (comparing 3 different paints against eachother) were incorrect. I was affraid white will not look white, but it does look like snow white.... I could probably even go with BW at its N8.5, but I'm sure Scropion at N8 will give me better comination between white/whites and black/blacks....

Since I believe it takes about 24hrs for the paint to settle, I'll take some screenshots tonight or tomorrow. I've been busy with electrical work, and I'm almost ready to start with laminate flooring.

Now I'll try to put frame up onto my drywall... I bought today 4" MDF pieces as I think a little bigger frame is nicer (I'll return untached 3" MDF to HD)...

However I have a little problem (I tend to overanylize things in my life

) with hanging the frame onto the drywall....

I'm building a 'simple' 110" frame out of 4" MDF strips. I'll use "L" brackets to hold the frame (butt style). The MDF will be wrapped in strachable black velvet. I'm planning to use 2" wood screws (2 at the top and 2 at the button) to screw the frame thru MDF onto drywall and to 2x4 studs. I'm might use Adhesive sprayable glue to attach velvet to MDF instead staples to minimize velvet being ripped from screws. Also I'm planning to pri-drill holes in MDF for screws. I'm affraid the screws will damage velvet...

Therefore please let me know if my approach is correct or if there is a better alterantive before I break/damage something

...

BTW...I've got some paint samples to send to Mech and Harpmaker, so they can read it. I wonder how my Scorpion N8 mix hold up living on the shelf for the last 5 months or so...

**seattle_ice** · **10-06-09, 03:47 PM**

The sprayable adhesive works great for attaching the fabric.

MDF will sag over time under its own weight. 2 screws is not enough to keep the top and bottom straight for 110" over time. 36" is probably the absolute maximum you could go center to center on the screws.

**Harpmaker** · **10-06-09, 05:42 PM**

I have never worked with MDF, but in essence it is wood dust mixed in a resin. It does not hold regular wood screws very well; it has been such a problem that special screws have been developed for use with MDF.

Info on working with MDF: http://www.mcfeelys.com/tech/mdf.htm

MDF screws: http://www.mcfeelys.com/tech/mdf.htm

I don't know what woodworking equipment you have to work with, but any type of dowel or biscuit would help with the butt joints (which are inherently weak and depend on the glue joint alone to hold together). In your case you will be screwing L-brackets to the back of the butt joint for added support. I would use as many screws at the brackets have holes (and maybe drill a few extra). I would also epoxy the L-brackets in place as well as using screws.

In case you can't tell, I'm a belt AND suspenders man! Make that "belt and braces" for the folks in the U.K.

**clark17** · **10-07-09, 09:14 AM**

Thanks guys,

I’ll use adhesive sprayable glue to attach velvet and as many screws as they are studs behind drywall. Since top and button should hold most of the weight, I hope “L” brackets will be able to hold both sides...

(plz see my simplified drawing)

Yeah, hmmm... I don't have any woodworking equipment

**seattle_ice** · **10-07-09, 11:50 AM**

If you haven't made the frame yet, put the sides inside the top and bottom, instead of the way you have them and they will be supported better.

Although you would then have to buy 2 longer pieces.

**clark17** · **10-08-09, 09:33 AM**

Quote:

seattle_ice wrote:

If you haven't made the frame yet, put the sides inside the top and bottom, instead of the way you have them and they will be supported better.

Although you would then have to buy 2 longer pieces.

Yes, that would be a better approach, if I thought of it before I would more likely get two12ft MDFs…
I didn’t realize getting a perfect (or good enough) rectangular shape for a frame can be tricky. Unfortunately I had to use a very minimal keystone correction to get good enough rectangular shape. I find it funny because I didn’t relize that the thrown picture wasn’t perfect when I was using projector temporarily in my living room. I guess my eyes/vision got use it…

I’ve used MDF leftovers to try the brackets, and I found using 2 brackets per corner is better than 1. So I’ll have to take a trip to my local HD to buy 4 more brackets. Tonight I’ll glue/staple the velvet to the MDF and on Friday hopefully I’ll install “L” brackets and the frame onto the drywall… After that I’ll start on laminate flooring. This task is taking me forever (a little frustrating), but at the same time I’m still working on my basement. I find juggling daytime job, family (with 2 little ones) and finishing basement very difficult….

BTW…. While setting up projector, I watched bits of Cars and Braveheart (BD version) on a Scorpion N8 screen and all I can say is WOW!!!

I’m sure it will look even better with a frame…

**Harpmaker** · **10-08-09, 11:39 AM**

Hang in there Martin! I'm sure it will be worth all the frustration when you get it done!

Keep your stick on the ice!

**mechman** · **10-08-09, 05:42 PM**

If measured properly you could skip the screws and use french cleats to hold the frame to the wall. You'd probably need several of them. If you don't want the screws showing.

Just something else to consider.

**clark17** · **10-09-09, 07:57 AM**

Quote:

Harpmaker wrote:

Hang in there Martin! I'm sure it will be worth all the frustration when you get it done!

Keep your stick on the ice!

Thank you

Quote:

mechman wrote:

If measured properly you could skip the screws and use french cleats to hold the frame to the wall. You'd probably need several of them. If you don't want the screws showing.

Just something else to consider.

My only worry about using french cleats is that the frame won't be flush with the drywall and I'll get some light coming from the projector going under 4" MDF sides

I was gooing to buy two 12" of these and install them to the upper portion of the top MDF...

picture mounting hardware...

Your thoughts?

If I would go for regular french cleats, what wood (size/type) should I use?

Perhaps I should just rent and use finish nails or cement glue.... However it would be nice to be able to take my frame down for frame or screen repair. I'm sure my two little boys will do something to it sooner or later

Last night with help from my better half, we got 4 MDF strips rapped in black velvet. I've used sprayable adhesive (it will help if I go with screws) and staples on the back.... Also I've used sprayable black flat paint prior on MDF, just in case any light goes thru velvet (it could be a little thicker)...

Also I was able to get rid off keystone correction

by adjusting PJ's mount, even at minimial setting of "+1" on my HD65, I could see some distortions (when viewing desktop from my HTPC)

on the screen which I hated it.

BTW... Mech and Harpmaker would you want me to send you Scorpion N8 samples for reading? If you do plz PM me with your adresses.

**Harpmaker** · **10-09-09, 09:30 AM**

First of all Martin, I love Lee Valley! They sell the best duct tape in the world!!!! I must also admit spending hours leafing through their catalog just like I used to do with the Sears Christmas catalog when I was a kid. They (Lee Valley) have some unique products and it's all top-notch!

Since your screen is your wall I can see how mounting your frame via French cleat might allow light through the gap between frame and wall. Using a French cleat is so nice (very easy to take frame down for repair or cleaning), it might be worth a try anyway. When using a French cleat don't forget to add spacer blocks to the bottom of the frame the same thickness as the cleats on the top, this will keep all areas of the frame the same distance from the wall.

As for any light that might be getting past that gap between frame and wall, one solution that comes to might might be to use some strips of that thick foam tape made to stop air from getting through the gap between a door and it's jamb, or around windows. The stuff is about 1/2" wide and between 1/2" and 3/4" thick (it comes in different dimensions).

Good thinking about painting the wood flat black before wrapping the black velvet around it!

I'll PM you my address. Thanks for the offer of a sample of your screen mix!

**mechman** · **10-09-09, 10:45 AM**

You could actually make the frame itself the french cleat. Use 1/2" mdf and stack them. If they're 4" wide the back piece, on top of the frame, would be a thin strip on the bottom - to make it look good - and the french cleat on the top. You'd wrap the edges of all of it in velvet. The cleat itself would be sandwiched within the frame. I'd guess you'd need at least a 3 inch wide frame.

If I had time I'd draw it out for you on google sketchup but I think you're far enough along that you may not want to redo what's already done.

**clark17** · **10-09-09, 11:26 AM**

Thanks for your great ideas

, more likely I will delay frame wall mounting so I can rethink everything one more time

What is the saying? "measure 3 times and cut once"

**clark17** · **10-16-09, 09:41 AM**

The screen has been installed. At the end I’ve used 10 1.5” wood screws to attach screen to the wall. I was afraid screw heads will show, but they went under the velvet and thanks to adhesive I’ve used I was able to close the holes, so you from few feet you are not able to see any imperfections.

All I can say is WOW

, the frame gives you look of having a big plasma on your wall…. I would recommend building frame to anyone, it is totally worth it!!!.

The Scorpion N8 looks awesome BIG THANKS to Mechmen and Harpmaker for coming out with this wonderful mix.

The colors, whites and blacks are excellent. The ‘cars’ movie in 720P looks stunning….

I really thought the Scorpion N8 will be too dark and I was debating if I should go for N8.5. However now if I had to chose between Scorpion N8.5 and BW N7.5, I would go with BW N7.5. Scorpion N8 mix is perfect option between the two… In my case Optoma HD65 is not the greatest black performer (so anything will help). This weekend I hope I’ll make two 7” masking pieces, out of ½” (2x4) ridged foam covered in black velvet to cover UGLY ‘grey bars’ when watching widescreen movies… This should give me a nice 2.40:1 screen….

I’ll ship you guys samples and I’ll post some pictures as soon as dust settles.

Lately I was super busy with installing laminate flooring through my basement and other chores, so I had no time to play with the PJ. Last night till midnight I was getting avr/htpc/dvd/ota-hd setup. I think I mixed + and – or something, because when I turn avr on, there was no sound, so I had to disconnect it and try speaker by speaker, I just hoped it is not damaged speaker wire inside drywall… I don’t know what it was, but I guess it started to work. I guess this is what happens when you are overworking. I still need to install center speaker, since I went with 4” frame instead of 3”, the gap between frame and ceiling was too small. So I had to buy ‘shovel’ Y mount, so I can lay the speaker on it, not the best solution but it should work… Also I’ll have to spend some time to adjust my HTPC (nvidia 8200 chipset) with HDMI output and PJ’s settings…

BTW… my little ones love ‘almost finished’ basement…. Best quote from my son was “…thank you Mommy, thank you Daddy…. I didn’t know I’ve had so many toys”…. After almost 1.5 year we finally unpacked them from the move

. The place already is disaster area, as toys are everywhere…LOL.

Thanks again, in my next post I’ll post some pictures….

**mechman** · **10-16-09, 08:25 PM**

Good job Martin!

**clark17** · **10-16-09, 09:45 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Good job Martin!

Thanks to you guys

As promised.... sorry for PQ... this is the best I could do.
BTW... the shovel hanger works great as center speaker holder

Now all I have to do is masking for the UGLY gray bars....

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