Neutral Grays and Simple Off the Shelf Solutions

**muzz** · **07-07-07, 10:16 AM**

For folks that like Ben Moore- have stores near them.
Bill also mentioned to me, that the paint I am using is pretty neutral.

Benjamin Moore- "Pebble Beach"

Please LMK if thats incorrect Bill-

Gary

**Harry Muscle** · **07-07-07, 08:57 PM**

Which sheen are you using? Any top coat?

I like Benjamin Moore since it's cataloged on www.easyrgb.com so it's nice an easy to find and compare colors, etc., however, I'm having a hard time straying away from the research that tiddler has done, especially since he's given me some nice recommendations, not only on color but also on sheen.

Harry

**wbassett** · **07-07-07, 09:17 PM**

I am using the matte finish. Todd has found that the matte poly coating doesn't seem to be as big of a benefit with the matte finish as it does with a flat finish. In all practicality, if the paint is a flat finish the use of a matte poly top coating can boost the gain. Some say this is removing it from the 'Simple' arena and people should just jump up to the complex mixes. That is certainly an option, but honestly I don't know what the color breakdown is of the advanced mixes. I suspect most lean more towards red since red tends to make things look like they 'pop' more, but as far as color accuracy it will have a definite shift.

Like I mentioned though, I really don't have any information as far as color balance or gain on the advanced mixes so that would have to be provided by the people that developed those. As far as EasyFlex and poly, for the most part that two step method applies here too since Todd is working on the same goal as this thread and that is easy solutions based on a neutral palate. If the poly works for a neutral tint obtained from Behr, it should work for these too. I might want to try a test panel first just to make sure though. The poly does change the over all color balance ever so slightly and it could take some of these neutrals away from neutral, so a test panel is always a good idea.

Still the matte finish does bump up the gain over a flat surface sheen, so those methods that already come in matte don't seem to require a matte poly coating.

**Tiddler** · **07-07-07, 10:38 PM**

Durability and wash-ability should play some part in your decision. I don't think I would ever recommend the Behr Flat UPW #1050 for a long term screen solution. It makes a good base and with a poly top coat it becomes durable and washable. If it's a fixed screen you just never know when something will get splattered on it. I suspect blood and red wine don't wash off of a flat paint very well. A matte painted or poly top coated screen would be better. A laminate would be by far the best for possible abusive situations.

I also want to be clear about the brand name paints. I have heard from several different sources that Pratt & Lambert paints are very good and level out extremely well when rolled. I suspect the Sherwin Williams and Benjamin Moore paints are in that class of quality as well. So Behr may be everywhere, but with a brand name paint you just won't care. Oh Oh It's happening again!

**muzz** · **07-07-07, 10:46 PM**

"Which sheen are you using? Any top coat?

I like Benjamin Moore since it's cataloged on www.easyrgb.com so it's nice an easy to find and compare colors, etc., however, I'm having a hard time straying away from the research that tiddler has done, especially since he's given me some nice recommendations, not only on color but also on sheen."

I'm using Flat- with 2 coats of Behr #780 as a topcoat.

**wbassett** · **08-25-07, 05:31 PM**

For anyone interested in the True Value Winter Mountain and Winter Mist, I ran into a minor problem with my local True Value. They said those colors do not exist.

I called the main head quarters of True Value and they said any store can still make these paints. If a store insists that they are not valid colors they said to tell them to check the main computer or call the main office and they would tell them what to do.

Also I spoke to Xrite and they provided me with a formula for N7 that can be made anywhere. I'm verifying that right now as well as waiting for a call back from Xrite to see if they know formulas for N8 and N9.

N7 is too dark in my opinion, but if anyone is interested in the mix for Behr or Sherwin Williams let me know.

**mechman** · **08-25-07, 08:56 PM**

Quote:

wbassett wrote:

For anyone interested in the True Value Winter Mountain and Winter Mist, I ran into a minor problem with my local True Value. They said those colors do not exist.

I called the main head quarters of True Value and they said any store can still make these paints. If a store insists that they are not valid colors they said to tell them to check the main computer or call the main office and they would tell them what to do.

Also I spoke to Xrite and they provided me with a formula for N7 that can be made anywhere. I'm verifying that right now as well as waiting for a call back from Xrite to see if they know formulas for N8 and N9.

N7 is too dark in my opinion, but if anyone is interested in the mix for Behr or Sherwin Williams let me know.

In a Behr mix too? Is it similar to EasyFlex?

mech

**wbassett** · **08-25-07, 11:31 PM**

Doesn't look to be, different pigments at different ratios. It's hard to tell since this is very dark, around 175 175 175 in shade. An N8 and N9 version would obviously have less in it but I don't know the ratios yet, I'm still waiting to hear back from XRite.

**Tiddler** · **08-25-07, 11:56 PM**

Quote:

wbassett wrote:

Doesn't look to be, different pigments at different ratios. It's hard to tell since this is very dark, around 175 175 175 in shade. An N8 and N9 version would obviously have less in it but I don't know the ratios yet, I'm still waiting to hear back from XRite.

What is the tint formula for the Behr UPW?

**mechman** · **08-26-07, 02:52 PM**

It'd be too dark for a screen I'd guess...

Or maybe for a high lumen pj in a high ambient light locale.

mech

**Tiddler** · **08-26-07, 03:21 PM**

It might be just what the doctor ordered with a pearl clear coat. Remember I was using EasyFlex-12 as the base for a pearl clear coat using the Folkart Pearlizing Medium. The result was similar to my own EasyFlex-06 screen with a little better uniformity across the screen.

**mechman** · **08-26-07, 03:53 PM**

Yeah but it would be pointless if they can give us a N8 or N9 shade. But I suspect we'd have to wait until Bill talks to them again. And that'd be tomorrow at the soonest I'd suspect.

mech

**wbassett** · **08-26-07, 05:29 PM**

The two base colors are Behr Ultra Pure White Interior Flat (1500) and Sherwin William's Luminous White Interior Flat.

Quick side note: Sherwin William's Luminous White seems to be their answer to UPW, which up until now was the brightest and whitest white I have seen, other than Rosco's Off Broadway White White (an actual screen paint for $28 a gallon) This isn't the $42 a gallon issue either like the Duration brand has and some people don't like, it's around $14 for a quart and rolls extremely well.

Here is what's in it, and there are a few interesting and notable ingrediants:

Water
Titanium Dioxide
Vinyl Polymer
Calcinied Clay
Calcium Carbonate
Mica
Ethylene Glycol
Cristobalite
Quartz

UPW has the following ingrediants:

Anhydrous aluminum silicate
Acrylic polymer(s)
Titanium dioxide
Nepheline Syenite
Ethylene glycol
Hydrophobically-modified polyether solution
2-ethylhexyl benzoate
Hydrated aluminum-magnesium silicate
Palygorskite
Silica, amorphous, precipitated and gel

Some of the notable ingrediants that should stand out with the Luminous White are- It's a vinyl polymer, it uses Titanium Dioxide as does UPW but has Calcium Carbonate in it as well, and it also contains mica.

I know I have previously made some comments about mica and pearlescents and stated Aluminum Oxide was a better way to go. I still favor Al2O3 (Aluminum Oxide) since it is not translucent and doesn't cause any prism effect, but mica with controlled usage can have its benefits too. Mica is more of the older ways and Al2O3 is something new being used.

So an immediate concern I have would be adding a mica based top coating to a base that already has mica in it. I think it could possibly be too much and the Luminous White may not even need the added mica to a top coating (or a top coating at all) since it already has a controlled amount calculated and added by the manufacturer. Of course testing is always something that needs to be tried at least, so until then that's just my two cents on things. My suggestion right now for Luminous White would be if a clear coating is desired for protective reasons, stick with the matte poly until further pearl coating tests can be done and validated.

For a Munsell N7 neutral, and again this comes straight from Xrite, not a guess, the tints and ratios required are:
Lamp Black 0 15 1
Brown Oxide 0 3 1
Medium Yellow 0 1 1

This is for a quart. As I mentioned I am checking with Xrite to see if they have a formal N8 and N9 ration that was also tested like the N7.

Warning Note: N7 is a very dark gray compared to any of the other screen methods presented and I do not recommend this shade for anyone unless they have an extremely bright projector and totally uncontrollable ambient lighting.

**wbassett** · **08-26-07, 05:49 PM**

Quote:

tiddler wrote:

It might be just what the doctor ordered with a pearl clear coat. Remember I was using EasyFlex-12 as the base for a pearl clear coat using the Folkart Pearlizing Medium. The result was similar to my own EasyFlex-06 screen with a little better uniformity across the screen.

Todd did Behr run any tests on EasyFlex-12? If so we can determine what Munsell shade it corresponds to. That would be excellent if we can identify the EasyFlex by Munsell rating. That's usually how I recommend screen options to people rather than a specific method, and without knowing how they correlate I may inadvertently overlook something. I assure you if I do it's not intentional.

Soon we'll have new spectro data on all the DIY applications as well as commercial offerings. I even hope to get reviews and testing done on all of the commercial screen paints if they chose to participate.

There are a few other things in the works too, but right now I have a very full plate as does mech and we need to get all our reviews done. I also need to work out some pretty big kinks in the Flash module I am working on for screen recommendations based on lumen ratings, room settings, and screen size. There are a lot of variables to get working together.

I think though that by the end of 2007 we will have all Munsell neutrals identified that are extremely easily obtainable. Now we have a vinyl polymer base with built in mica, Calcium Carbonate, Titanium Doixide... I think we have the makings of an extremely good application coming.

For those that desire complex, I'm working on a custom advance mix that utilizes Aluminum and of course... will adhere to our D65 neutral reference and specification standards.

Everything of course won't be presented all at once because there are only so many hours in the day. Some good things are coming though.

**wbassett** · **08-26-07, 06:03 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Yeah but it would be pointless if they can give us a N8 or N9 shade. But I suspect we'd have to wait until Bill talks to them again. And that'd be tomorrow at the soonest I'd suspect.

mech

I'll actually be in New Jersey for some classes Monday and Tuesday. Kara at XRite and the local rep have my cell phone so maybe I'll hear from them before Wednesday, but if not I will call them for a follow up. We'll nail this down soon though.

**cynical2** · **08-26-07, 08:00 PM**

Quote:

wbassett wrote:

The two base colors are Behr Ultra Pure White Interior Flat (1500) and Sherwin William's Luminous White Interior Flat.

For a Munsell N7 neutral, and again this comes straight from Xrite, not a guess, the tints and ratios required are:
Lamp Black 0 15 1
Brown Oxide 0 3 1
Medium Yellow 0 1 1

This is for a quart. As I mentioned I am checking with Xrite to see if they have a formal N8 and N9 ration that was also tested like the N7.

Warning Note: N7 is a very dark gray compared to any of the other screen methods presented and I do not recommend this shade for anyone unless they have an extremely bright projector and totally uncontrollable ambient lighting.

Bill

The formula is exactly the same for either base?

Thanks!

**wbassett** · **08-26-07, 08:14 PM**

According to XRite they are but I still want confirmation on both as well as any N8 and N9's they provide to me.

**Tiddler** · **08-27-07, 11:10 AM**

The Xrite tint for the behr UPW #1050 is interesting and quite similar to my own tints.

Lamp Black 0 15 1
Brown Oxide 0 3 1
Medium Yellow 0 1 1

It is similar in that the Brown Oxide + Medium Yellow would be similar in Spectral Reflectance as the yellow Oxide. The main difference would be the effect on the green wavelengths. So this has confirmed my speculations that some combination of brown + yellow or yellow + red would allow one to tailor the final spectral reflectance curve to be more flat and uniform.

The other thing it confirms for me is the basic ratio of Black to neutralizing pigment. It is very close to a 3:1 ratio. In my case I increased the ratio to 2:1 in order to balance the Red with the Blue. Based on the incorrect RGB measurements from that time, it appeared to produce a balance gray with a slight green deficiency. That however did not agree with it's appearance. It did have a slight greenishness to it. The second round of RGB testing indicated exactly that. The Green was slightly high. I therefore backed off on the Yellow Oxide.

Brown Oxide will have a spectral curve that slopes gently up towards the higher wavelength. The effect is to reduce the lower wavelengths (Blue) and raise the upper wavelengths (Red). More or less to rotate the overall spectral curve counter clock wise. If the Lamp Black in UPW was a flat spectral curve to begin with then that would be all that is needed. The higher wavelengths do tend to drop off so the addition of some Medium Yellow will actually absorb the lower wavelength reducing the Blue and Green to a lesser extent. The net result is to raise the Red relative to the Blue and get the balance back. By selecting the best combination of Brown Oxide and Medium Yellow this also results in the Green being level with the now balance Red and Blue.

I have been very impressed with the results of just the EasyFlex tinted UPW before the poly top coat was applied. The whites were surprisingly white while the blacks look appropriately dark. The big question now will be if the Xrite tint and the EasyFlex tint look different in a side-by-side comparison with a projected image. I suspect it will be just noticeable and some might find it negligible. I suspect if viewed separately most people may not even be able to tell the difference. Those like wbassett and mechman who have spent endless hours staring at various screen samples would probably be able to tell the difference though.

My approach to any scientific endeavor, at work or at play, is to do it as correctly as possible, even if the difference is negligible. I drive the engineers around here crazy because I insist on them providing full and complete aerodynamic calculation formulas for me to implement in my data processing software. They often complain that this or that is negligible and will not effect the final out come. My response to them is always, if it won't effect the outcome then humor me and let me implement the formulas properly. My approach to this paint tinting will be the same. If the Xrite tint indeed is more correct and produces similar or better results than the current EasyFlex tints, then the Xrite tint will superseded the EasyFlex tint.

The refinement of these neutral gray tints for UPW does not mean anyone who used my original tints has a bad screen though. It just means that we have arrived at a more accurate tint formula that will be easily matched against the Munsell Gray Scale. So don't race out and repaint your screen.

I'm glad wbassett has been able to get this type of tint formula from Xrite, because for me to develop it through experimenting and sending off samples for testing would be a lot of work and I may never get it right. This is a big step in the right direction as far as I am concerned.

Good Job Bill!

P.S. When I contacted the folks at the Behr Color Laboratory, my original hope was that they would simply provide us with this sort of neutral gray tint formula. I wonder why Xrite is able to do this without experimenting and testing?

**mechman** · **08-27-07, 12:09 PM**

Quote:

tiddler wrote:

P.S. When I contacted the folks at the Behr Color Laboratory, my original hope was that they would simply provide us with this sort of neutral gray tint formula. I wonder why Xrite is able to do this without experimenting and testing?

A true neutral gray is used in calibration of cameras and so I would also assume spectros and colorimeters. And since X-Rite (Now also Gretag Macbeth - one bought out the other - not sure who bought whom but they're the same now) is probably the biggest player in the sandbox with regards to this equipment, they probably have these tints handy for their customers in case of a lost calibration plaque? Just a guess - and a far fetched one at that as they do calibrate by more than just gray.

mech

**wbassett** · **08-27-07, 07:15 PM**

Quote:

tiddler wrote:

I wonder why Xrite is able to do this without experimenting and testing?

Like mech said, Xrite bought Greta MacBeth, who sells a lot of Munsell items. Kara said they did test it and I'm trying to get those numbers. I received a call back from the local Xrite rep but I was in class and we couldn't talk for long. When I get back Wednesday Bob and I are going to talk about things and I'll find out then if they have an N8 as well as get the spectro numbers.

I am very interested in Luminous White and am going to get a quart tinted to Gray Screen and test it against the Duration base. I may be putting up a new screen.

**mechman** · **08-27-07, 07:35 PM**

Quote:

tiddler wrote:

If the Xrite tint indeed is more correct and produces similar or better results than the current EasyFlex tints, then the Xrite tint will superseded the EasyFlex tint.

Todd,

If X-Rite says it's an N7, you could go to the bank on it!

They are the experts in the color field.

What remains to be seen is if we can squeeze an N8, N8.5 or N9 out of them!

Get to it Bill!

mech

**wbassett** · **08-27-07, 08:05 PM**

Let's not forget though that we do already have two exceptional ones, Winter Mountain and Winter Mist. I would like to find a match for Behr and Sherwin Williams though too. We'll work on Benjamin Moore and the others.

**wbassett** · **09-15-07, 11:38 PM**

Some interesting news and possibly very good news once we test and confirm this...

I just picked up Valspar Cinema Screen from Lowes, and... Valspar Winter Mountain!

This wasn't a color match from a store color swatch (which are not really accurate, not like a fan deck) but it is from a color library of all manufacturer's paint fan decks. Lowes uses a software program from XRite that can call up virtually any color from any manufacturer and give the exact code to make that paint.

First things first, we need to spectro this to confirm if it is a real match or just a 'close enough for hand grenades' match. I talked to the guy at Lowes and he spun the monitor around for me to look at it. Up on the screen was True Value Winter Mountain 1982 no doubt! I asked if this was 'close' or the exact same color and he said "If it was 'just close' it wouldn't match what you are painting or repairing that was already painted with the original color." I am a little skeptical because we are talking about different base paints being used, but I felt it was worth checking so I bought some 1982 Winter Mountain.

If this tests out the same as what's already in the database, it means people can get any of the neutrals there, including the EF tints. Now, I am not saying EasyFlex shouldn't use Behr and go with this, but it opens the door for two sources (maybe more) for a very popular DIY method.

Before we, or I should say I go off doing a happy dance, this must be spectro'd to make sure that the colors are indeed the same for the OTS and the EF system or else it's all a shoot and that's the last thing I want to introduce. So don't anyone run off yet to Lowes and have them call up something on the XRite software, let's go slow and make sure this is valid. If so, it is very very good news.

I'll check with Home Depot and see if they have the same software. From what I understand ACE has it, so let's see how many others do as well. This will take the guessing out of going from one manufacturer to another... IF the readings come back positive.

**wbassett** · **09-20-07, 12:51 AM**

Reposted with permission from stevem911

Quote:

stevem911 wrote:

Ok, testing is complete...at least for now. I messed around with the calibration, what i found i couldnt quite do it. Due to the images for calibration spanned accross the different paint samples. But i will tell you that when viewing, it was a of alot easier to tone down the white's and add more black on the lighter screen, as opposed trying to make the GS produce a whiter white, AND brighter picture. The Behr mix was just easier to control....way eaiser! And i still couldnt get the GS to pop the whites as good, no matter what i tried. Two things though in comparison that were quite obvious; Full lights on(as you will see) The GS is FAR better. And with lights out, or some ambiant light (lamp on behind projector) The blacks were dead-evan. Watching HD basketball was also a treat for the Behr Poly coat as it made the court have a little extra "pop" ecspecially on the lighter screen. I dont think the extra pop shows up on the pics as it does with my own eyes. As far as color goes..I really have no way to test it, but both screens were very pleasing with color. So in conclusion...for me. Its a easy pick of the Behr "special mix" WITH the poly coating(a must) hands down. Reason being; The whites were clearer and brighter, the blacks were a push, and it had more pop. Bright scenes were just more pleasing, not by leaps and bounds, but noticeable. Remmember though, I watch mine either in total dark, or with a lamp on behind the projector.

I want to thank tiddler for helping me link thes images. And also for the "poly" coat. It added some pop that was more noticeable than these pictures show. I personally would recommend the poly highly!!

I found adding the polycoat had quite and improvement. It also adds tiny glitter speckles you can see at a certain angle in the right light.

Lights out

Full lights on, as you can see....the GS did quite a bit better.

**wbassett** · **09-20-07, 12:56 AM**

Reposted with permission by stevem911

Quote:

stevem911 wrote:

Full lights on, again GS is much better.

Lights out, and the blacks are dead even. Interesting isnt it.

And more

Lights out, dead even again.

Full lights on, notice the freethrow circle...the black.

Lights out, blacks or a push once again

Lights out, As for color, both (all 4 really) did extremlly well

Full lights on, I wanted to show this because what i noticed is sports seem to fair better with more ambiant light. (maybe someone knows why) But the GS seems to look better with lights on, no question. But for ME....i wouldnt watch it this way because i know what i would be missing if i toned down the lights.

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