Neutral Grays and Simple Off the Shelf Solutions

**wbassett** · **09-20-07, 10:13 AM**

I got Steve's permission to repost this but would like to add some comments.

As always selecting a screen, be it a commercial screen or DIY ultimately comes down to personal preference. Gain gets used a little too liberally in my opinion. It's not the one definitive screen attribute that fits every situation and everyone's needs. With grays, especially darker grays, projector Lumens are a big factor in white levels. If you are not satisfied with how whites look to you, then a lighter gray is probably more suited to your tastes. I will say though that in most situations as long as the projector is bright enough for the shade of gray, without any white comparison reference, whites will look white. When side by side comparisons are done, there will be a difference. This even applies to commercial screens being compared.

In the above comparison Steve decided whites were a bigger factor than day time or full lights on performance, which is exactly what I was saying about personal preference.

I certainly am not arguing about this, it is a perfect example of screen selection and narrowing down choices. One additional step Steve could have done, but not something I would say would be a required test since he is obviously happy with the Behr solution, would have then been to test two similar grays that were both the same shade. He could have tested the Behr mix along side Sherwin William's Soothing White or True Value's Winter Mist to get an idea of performance between comparable shades.

Like I said, all in all this was a good comparison and example of someone auditioning grays to find the one that best fits their needs and tastes.

**09-22-07, 06:49 PM**

Let's imagine I know nothing about mixing or buying paint.

Tomorrow I want to pick up 'winter mist' from the true value down the road. With everything I've read and all of the advice i've been given, i think this light gray is just what i need to deepen my blacks without sacrificing color accuracy/ white levels. It should also make it easier to view some hd programming with a bit of light in the room, if I ever choose to do so.

So I walk in and ask for a gallon of winter mist (I need a gallon because I need to paint the whole wall). Do I tell them I want it in a matte finish? A flat finish? Something else entirely?

Thanks for the answer. I know this question is entirely noobish, so I appreciate your tolerance of it!

**wbassett** · **09-22-07, 07:09 PM**

Quote:

jefft1314 wrote:

Let's imagine I know nothing about mixing or buying paint.

Tomorrow I want to pick up 'winter mist' from the true value down the road. With everything I've read and all of the advice i've been given, i think this light gray is just what i need to deepen my blacks without sacrificing color accuracy/ white levels. It should also make it easier to view some hd programming with a bit of light in the room, if I ever choose to do so.

So I walk in and ask for a gallon of winter mist (I need a gallon because I need to paint the whole wall). Do I tell them I want it in a matte finish? A flat finish? Something else entirely?

Thanks for the answer. I know this question is entirely noobish, so I appreciate your tolerance of it!

True value doesn't have a 'matte' finish, not like the Duration brand Sherwin Williams sells.

What you can do is this, ask them what flat base is the most durable. Tiddler found some exterior finishes that are tougher than plain interior flat paint. They will be able to tell you what's available.

From your other posts, it sounded like you were leaning even darker. N8 really isn't a super dark gray and with a projector with the right amount of Lumen output it works very well with both lights off and total lights on. The question though is would you want your entire wall painted that color?

Gray Screen is very tough for a matte finish paint and doesn't look that bad. I used a program that lets you virtually paint your rooms and I was actually surprised at how it looked. Might want to try that to see how the room will look.

I agree with your PM to Tiddler, if you have already been shooting onto a white wall you probably already have your baseline, as long as the wall actually is white and not something like antique white or country white or some off white color like that. Still it should give you a good idea of overall performance.

**09-22-07, 07:54 PM**

It doesn't matter at all how the paint looks on the wall. The room is used solely for home theater- well, that and music listening.

It also doesn't matter whether the paint is difficult to clean or not. Again, this is a dedicated ht room, there are no kids in the house. There is a cat, and I have a couple of roomates.

I don't regret priming the wall today. The image is certainly better than what I was getting with the off white cream color that was there before. Also, this will make the painting process tomorrow much easier.

My projector is rated at 700 lumens, but unlike other projector's lumen claims, the Samsung actually comes close to what it claims.

So, gray screen, winter mountain, winter mist. I did spend fifty bucks today on primer and painting supplies. (i had nothing to start with)

If winter mountain is less expensive than gray screen, and it's closer to a neutral n8, and I don't have any concerns about being able to clean the painted surface (it will likely never be touched... except by the cat...) and a n8 is appropriate for how small my screen is, how dark my room is, and how bright my projector is, wouldn't it make sense to go with winter mountain over gray screen?

I'm certainly still open to the gray screen idea, but I figure I might as well save the 15 bucks on the gallon if winter mountain will work as well, if not better.

**09-22-07, 07:58 PM**

Heh... my sherwin williams isn't open on Sundays. Looks like I'll have to default to True Value unless somebody thinks it's worth waiting until Monday to hit up Sherwin Williams.

**wbassett** · **09-22-07, 08:11 PM**

Quote:

jefft1314 wrote:

It doesn't matter at all how the paint looks on the wall. The room is used solely for home theater- well, that and music listening.

It also doesn't matter whether the paint is difficult to clean or not. Again, this is a dedicated ht room, there are no kids in the house. There is a cat, and I have a couple of roomates.

Also, flats are pretty inexpensive and if over time it did get some dirt, just roll on another coat. Anyone smoke? That's something you won't be able to wipe down on a flat finish, but again, just roll it again a year or so down the road if it looks like it's getting some wear and tear.

I don't regret priming the wall today. The image is certainly better than what I was getting with the off white cream color that was there before. Also, this will make the painting process tomorrow much easier.

Glad to hear that. Didn't want to push with the primer, but it really is important to baseline in my opinion. Kilz is the easiest and cheapest way to throw a white reference screen up and then like you said... you're already primed for painting the wall. Extra step, but worth it.

My projector is rated at 700 lumens, but unlike other projector's lumen claims, the Samsung actually comes close to what it claims.

They are problably stating actual Video Optimize lumens and not raw max lumen output. Interestingly Sony says that Lumen ratings vary so much from on manufacturer to another that they are almost meaningless. I do have an email out to Projector Central asking for some clarification on their site calculator. When they get back to me on that I'll pass it on to everyone.

So, gray screen, winter mountain, winter mist. I did spend fifty bucks today on primer and painting supplies. (i had nothing to start with)

If winter mountain is less expensive than gray screen, and it's closer to a neutral n8, and I don't have any concerns about being able to clean the painted surface (it will likely never be touched... except by the cat...) and a n8 is appropriate for how small my screen is, how dark my room is, and how bright my projector is, wouldn't it make sense to go with winter mountain over gray screen?

Winter Mountain and Winter Mist are definitely within the neutral tolerance specs for D65. Gray Screen is within the near neutral range but is very close to D65. I went with it for the reasons I mentioned in the other threads and yes it works very well, but you won't have a problem with Winter Mountain either, not with a bright projector. If your video optimized lumen output ends up being lower than that, say 400 or less, you might want to stick with a lighter shade of gray, but it sounds like from what you're seeing it is a very bright projector, if so, you'll be fine with N8.

So yes, Winter Mountain is less expensive. I got it in the Valspar base and it was $9.50 for a quart. Not sure what they charge for a gallon. TV EZ Care is pretty inexpensive by the gallon though.

I'm certainly still open to the gray screen idea, but I figure I might as well save the 15 bucks on the gallon if winter mountain will work as well, if not better.

Yeah save your money. If you were going to be watching with lots of ambient lighting, especially incandescant lighting I might say spend the little extra on it, but doesn't sound like thats the case. Save some money and pick up a new DVD to watch when you're done!

**09-22-07, 08:29 PM**

Thanks Bassett.

Your responses are fantastic, and quick to boot!

Also, there's a better than 80% chance that I won't be in this townhouse longer than a year. I'll be returning to school next year, and even if I end up local, I'll probably still opt to move closer to the school.

**mechman** · **09-22-07, 08:47 PM**

Jeff,

In painting up a bunch of panels recently for an upcoming 'shootout' if you will, I've noticed how non-durable flat finish paint really is. I'd shell out the extra money for the Duration Matte finish gray screen. I don't know if you've seen what they look like but here's a shot.

That's in a flat finish.

mech

**wbassett** · **09-22-07, 09:25 PM**

Quote:

jefft1314 wrote:

Now that you mention the smoking... none of us smoke cigarettes in the house, but this is looking to be our primary, let's say, "recreational" smoking room.

Given that little tid-bit, gray screen may be worth it for the durable matte finish?

Also, there's a better than 80% chance that I won't be in this townhouse longer than a year. I'll be returning to school next year, and even if I end up local, I'll probably still opt to move closer to the school.

You should be fine with the flat, just pointing out flats can show wear and any dirt, smoke or other things a lot quicker than other surfaces, but it is a real easy thing to fix.

The main benefit with Duration, and I want to say I'm not trying to sway you in that direction is not only the tougher finish, but it has a slightly higher surface sheen to it than flat paints, which equates to a slightly higher gain, but nothing I would say is astronomical. It will provide a little more vivid picture but it is $42 a gallon, so that's an added cost.

Seeing that you're only going to be there a year (renting I assume) you don't want to do anything that's going to cost you your security deposit and any of the grays being mentioned should fit that need well.

When you move, you might be ready for a full fixed frame setup, hopefully you'll be happy enough that you'll know where to come back to!

**09-23-07, 10:38 AM**

Considering the quality of responses and "service" I've been provided- mind you, that's *free* service, I'll absolutely be back when its time to build a nice 120" inch screen!

You guys have been great. Also, I think I will go with gray screen and paint tomorrow night instead of picking up winter mountain today. If it's too dark, and I don't think it will be, then it's a good thing I've still got half a gallon of kilz left. :-)

This board moves so much faster than avs, it's a wonder anybody bothers with that other forum. Even so, I do really appreciate Tiddler's work that he's done for me in that forum.

I'll be back with impressions after I get gray screen up tomorrow night.

**mechman** · **09-23-07, 11:35 AM**

mech

**09-25-07, 02:49 AM**

Painted the wall with two coats of gray screen.

Everything looks good. The "black bars" in cinemascope movies are definitely still quite gray. The picture is definitely more watchable with lights on, however. Also, my whites are still brilliant. Nothing lost; very little gained. Definitely not worth the 40+ dollars or the time invested considering how little of my viewing will happen with lights on and how little my black levels were impacted. With that said, it was a fun experiment, if nothing else! I think I should have gone with my instincts and tried an N7. I think if I'm ever in such a short throw situation again, I'll give it a shot. I'll certainly let you guys know how it turns out.

For now, I need to finish felting the walls, put my rear speakers on the stands arriving tomorrow, and enjoy my home theater. :-)

Thanks again for all of the suggestions and help!

I'd love to share some pics, but I can't get my camera to sync with my pc.

**GbrNole** · **09-25-07, 07:33 AM**

jeff, that's just the nature of the 710ae unfortunately and quite frankly the best fix for it is to mask off the borders and then reevaluate - pin up some black cloth and take another look.

once you can take your eyes off the much less than black bars on cinemascope movies you really tend not to notice that the blacks could be blacker and instead get mesmerized by the crazy amount of shadow detail.

i also still think it might be worthwhile you taking bill's advice and checking out an ND filter - that could be the perfect match.

did you recalibrate the color, contrast and brightness of the PJ for the new screen?

**cynical2** · **09-25-07, 07:50 AM**

Quote:

jefft1314 wrote:

Painted the wall with two coats of gray screen.

Everything looks good. The "black bars" in cinemascope movies are definitely still quite gray. The picture is definitely more watchable with lights on, however. Also, my whites are still brilliant. Nothing lost; very little gained. Definitely not worth the 40+ dollars or the time invested considering how little of my viewing will happen with lights on and how little my black levels were impacted. With that said, it was a fun experiment, if nothing else! I think I should have gone with my instincts and tried an N7. I think if I'm ever in such a short throw situation again, I'll give it a shot. I'll certainly let you guys know how it turns out.

For now, I need to finish felting the walls, put my rear speakers on the stands arriving tomorrow, and enjoy my home theater. :-)

Thanks again for all of the suggestions and help!

I'd love to share some pics, but I can't get my camera to sync with my pc.

Jeff, you may also see an improvement over the next 1-2 weeks...the paint is still curing at this point.

**09-25-07, 09:26 AM**

I didn't recalibrate for brightness or contrast. I can't calibrate for colors because i'm missing the blue filter that came with my calibration disk. (**** it!)

I'll adjust for contrast and brightness tonight. It will be a while before I can pick up the avia disk, though, and do a proper calibration. I've been hemorrhaging money with the move. It seems I don't spend it in more than 50 dollar chunks, but with the pickup of a new game, the money spent in primer and paint supplies, the money for the gray screen, as well as speaker stands for my front and rear speakers, my play money is all but exhausted!

At any rate, I think you're right about masking the gray bars. I mean, I watched Kill Bill the other night, (on simply the kilz2) and I fell in love with the movie all over again. The blacks actually seemed fine in the picture, but if those gray bars aren't annoying. :-)

It looks like I'll be able to wrap up the theater room this weekend which should include my makeshift masking system. I'll report back, then!

**wbassett** · **09-25-07, 03:51 PM**

Definitely recalibrate even if you can only get the contrast and brightness done, it really will make a huge difference.

What screen size and throw distance are you at?

For a 94" screen you'd have 21 fL of brightness, which is very bright! (That's adding 25% back in for a brand new bulb)

A border also provides a black reference for our eyes too, which helps some with those letterbox area. Check into an ND filter and I think you'll be all set and also be able to pull the filter as the bulb gets older and dimmer and still be very satisfied with the PQ all the way through the life of the bulb.

**GbrNole** · **09-25-07, 04:04 PM**

bill, his screen is the 84" one that you recommended the ND filter for since his PJ was showing up a little too bright.

**09-25-07, 04:56 PM**

I've got to take my car in to get looked at, and pay rent here pretty soon. I should be able to swing the ND filter, however, whatever the case.

Is there a particular one that you guys would reccommend, in terms of how much brightness it would reduce it by? Projector central says i'm rocking 25 lumens at the moment. I probably want to be around 15 lumens, is that right?

**wbassett** · **09-25-07, 05:06 PM**

Yeah 15fL would be more than sufficient

**GbrNole** · **10-03-07, 10:27 AM**

alright i figured i might as well do my part and add another neutral gray to the mix (well neutral according to easyrgb.com anyway) it's a laura ashley color mixed using a quart of valspar signature series ultra matte so it has a slight sheen and it is washable and scrubbable.

the color is 1513 winter wind with RGB values of 219 218 218. the ever so slightly elevated red number stands out in the finished mix to give the paint a very subtle lilac hue.

for a little background my whole house is painted with laura ashley colors but mostly in satin and eggshell finishes. i have always found this paint to be pretty easy to work with (not the easiest though) and it has always dried flat and uniform when applied with proper care and technique.

for reference i had painted my screen with an easy flex 06 shade with upw 1850 base and i repainted the right half of the screen with the laura ashley (valspar) paint. both paints have a very similar sheen and the only significant difference is that the EF06 has been on the wall for a while but the LA WW was applied last night.

50/50 color reference. EF06 on the left, LA WW on the right

75/25 color reference. EF06 on the left, LA WW on the right

25/75 color reference. EF06 on the left, LA WW on the right

note: all of the above photos were taken with flash from about 5 feet away. my camera also has a tendency to push red a little bit.

ambient light screen shots where the total ambient light is in excess of 500 watts from adjacent rooms.

ambient light results with projector in its best setting with both iris' stopped down (the ef06 does a good job here)

same amount of ambient light except this time both iris' are wide open (ef06 wins again but it's not as big of a victory when more PJ light is thrown onto the screen)

same image but with no ambient light

for good measure i'm adding a couple of screen shots that show the color differences. please note that the projector was basic calibrated for the EF06 screen and no adjustments have been made to compensate for the LA WW.

the result from my little experiment has really been that the EF series of paints do a pretty good job even though they aren't truly neutral. right now i'm a little torn since while watching the movie there were instances where i like them both.
the LA WW is just a hair darker than True Value Winter Mist and as you can see in the first images it's a lot lighter and much less green than EF06.

I think my next experiment will be to see how a quart of TV Winter Mountain with a coat of poly stacks up against EF06. i definitely don't want to go darker than EF06 but i do want to go a touch more neutral. if i could find something readily available that had RGB color values of ~210 210 210 (not likely but still...) i think i would be set until the next time

**wbassett** · **10-03-07, 11:03 AM**

Very good write up and comparison.

Yes the EF series do work well. A couple things I'm seeing from the screen shots also show the differences between two shades of gray. The EF is around the 205 shade and as you mentioned Winter Wind is 219 218 218. That will account for the improvement with lights on. Darker shades will always win in that scenario.

I know we can't truly judge 100% by screenies, which is why I like supporting data to go along with them- and you did say your camera seems to tend to push red some. I do see a reddish cast in the lights on shots. Incandescent lighting also adds red to the image, so perhaps between that, the slightly elevated red value of WW and any push the camera may be adding is the reason, but on my end I do see it.

With lights out though it seems to be fine, and possible even a slight edge with the color reproduction. To be fair to EF, these are pretty different shades. An EF04 probably would be closer performance across the board, but again this is a good demonstration of the difference between two different shades.

If you have them and want to do even more testing, if you combine equal amounts of Winter Mountain and Winter Mist you'll get your 210 neutral shade.

**GbrNole** · **10-03-07, 11:45 AM**

i don't have winter mountain or winter mist but you sure are making it difficult for me not to go out and buy some now!!!

has it ever been determined if a poly top coat causes any discernible color difference when applied to a true value paint? this is my one concern because my media room doubles as an office where the kids do their homework etc. and the screen is actually the wall directly behind the work counter (i'd say desk but it's an 8 foot long, 25" wide piece of granite

)

**Tiddler** · **10-03-07, 12:25 PM**

I concur with Bill's comments. I would go further to suggest that if you were to compare an EF04 you should try a (3:1) ratio of LB:YO as well. That would make the two similar in color. An EF04.5 (0 4 1 LB + 0 1 1 YO / quart UPW) would have a less greenish look to it and be more like the other paint.

Another approach would be to take the Xrite neutral gray tint for Behr UPW and do the following:

Buy a gallon of the UPW #1850 and an empty quart can. Get the attendant to put the N7 neutral tint in the empty quart can. Keep the can upright at all times. You don't want the colorants all over the inside of the can. Also pickup a stirring attachment for your drill. Now go to the nearest veterinarian's office and ask for a 2oz. syringe with a catheter tip. That is a long plastic tip instead of a needle. They use these to force feed animals. It should be $2 or less and worth every penny for accurately mixing ratios of paint.

================
Quart? Custom Tint
Behr UPW #1050 / #1850 / #4850 (see Sheen Guide)
Lamp Black 0 15 1
Brown Oxide 0 3 1
Medium Yellow 0 1 1
================

When you get home, you can fill the empty quart can with untinted UPW and mix it really well with the drill attachment. Out of the quart can you have a neutral N7 according to Xrite. In the gallon can you have three quarts of untinted UPW. If Bill could provide a color graph with the UPW and N7 points on it then draw a line from one to the other that will show you all the shades of gray you can make. The more untinted UPW you use the closer it will be to the UPW end of the line. The more N7 tinted UPW you use the closer it will be to the N7 end of the line.

I doubt that the ratios work out as simple as 1 Part N7 + 2 Parts UPW == N9 and 2 Parts N7 + 1 Part UPW == N8 but who knows. I do know that untinted UPW has a slight blue push to it so the combinations that contain more UPW will be less neutral but UPW alone makes a pretty good white screen. I think Bill has indicated that the darker the gray the more important it is that it be neutral.

I wish I could do these experiments myself but "she who must be obeyed" must in fact be obeyed! At least I am able to tell you how to try every possible shade from UPW white to N7 for only the cost of a gallon of Behr paint and an empty quart can.

At one time I had planed on presenting a "Gray Experimenter's Kit" for those wanting to dial in the perfect shade of gray for their setup and desires. The above materials and instructions form the basis of that idea. There is enough paint there to make up at least a half dozen sample panels 2'x4'.

**GbrNole** · **10-03-07, 12:45 PM**

hmmm... interesting and something i'd definitely be up for since my nearest true value isn't terribly far away but it's by the beach so the traffic makes it a complete pain in the rear to get to - on the other hand it seems i have to pass by both a home depot and a lowes just so i can think about taking a dump! (3 of each within 12 miles of my house)

**wbassett** · **10-03-07, 12:51 PM**

Just a note, I started composing this before and Todd already made a reply too... I'm not trying to compete or contradict anything...

Quote:

GbrNole wrote:

alright i figured i might as well do my part and add another neutral gray to the mix (well neutral according to easyrgb.com anyway) it's a laura ashley color mixed using a quart of valspar signature series ultra matte so it has a slight sheen and it is washable and scrubbable.

Quote:

GbrNole wrote:

i don't have winter mountain or winter mist but you sure are making it difficult for me not to go out and buy some now!!!

has it ever been determined if a poly top coat causes any discernible color difference when applied to a true value paint? this is my one concern because my media room doubles as an office where the kids do their homework etc. and the screen is actually the wall directly behind the work counter (i'd say desk but it's an 8 foot long, 25" wide piece of granite

)

Don't go out of your way to buy it, I wasn't sure if you already had some for testing. If so, it was something you could try.

Yes there is a color change with the poly, we know that from the Silver Screen tests and there were some spectro readings that showed it did indeed tame down the blue tone. Mech has a Winter Mountain test panel already done and I know he has some poly. When he gets his spectrophotometer back from cal I'm sure he'll be taking some readings with and without the poly. This is actually something that needs to be done. We need to identify and track if this is a consistent affect on anything or if it varies by shades. If it is consistent and we can determine exactly how it's changing and in what direction, we will be able to look at any paint reading and know where it will be after a poly coating is applied. Like I said, this is valuable information that needs to be gathered anyway.

One thing to note, since you're using Valspar, they have a Machrite system and can call up paint from any manufacturer and brand and get the color information and mix. I have some Winter Mountain made with Valspar sitting right here right now! I would like to get some readings on it to make sure it is the same since a different base is being used. The guy in the store said it 'should' be identical, but I like to confirm things like that. You will be able to get anything made with the Signature Series Ultra Matte. So if you wanted any of the OTS neutrals you could go that route too. (I'm actually making a note to get some myself- I am always interested in matte if its available)

We'll have more readings on a lot of things soon and get everything cataloged. I have the Munsell neutral fandeck coming as well and once that's color matched with all the major paint manufacturers, between those and the OTS neutrals we'll have all the grays anyone would ever need for simple applications or even as the base for a more complex layered approach.

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