Neutral Grays and Simple Off the Shelf Solutions

**wbassett** · **10-03-07, 12:54 PM**

Quote:

GbrNole wrote:

hmmm... interesting and something i'd definitely be up for since my nearest true value isn't terribly far away but it's by the beach so the traffic makes it a complete pain in the rear to get to - on the other hand it seems i have to pass by both a home depot and a lowes just so i can think about taking a dump! (3 of each within 12 miles of my house)

Like I mentioned, Lowes can make anything with their system, they can even call up Behr Silver Screen and make that

This weekend I'll be getting some True Value Winter Mountain and painting a test panel that's half Valspar WM and half TV WM to test if I can see any visible difference. Mech will be doing readings of everything very soon.

**wbassett** · **10-03-07, 03:31 PM**

Quote:

tiddler wrote:

I concur with Bill's comments. I would go further to suggest that if you were to compare an EF04 you should try a (3:1) ratio of LB:YO as well. That would make the two similar in color. An EF04.5 (0 4 1 LB + 0 1 1 YO / quart UPW) would have a less greenish look to it and be more like the other paint.

Another approach would be to take the Xrite neutral gray tint for Behr UPW and do the following:

Buy a gallon of the UPW #1850 and an empty quart can. Get the attendant to put the N7 neutral tint in the empty quart can. Keep the can upright at all times. You don't want the colorants all over the inside of the can. Also pickup a stirring attachment for your drill. Now go to the nearest veterinarian's office and ask for a 2oz. syringe with a catheter tip. That is a long plastic tip instead of a needle. They use these to force feed animals. It should be $2 or less and worth every penny for accurately mixing ratios of paint.

================
Quart? Custom Tint
Behr UPW #1050 / #1850 / #4850 (see Sheen Guide)
Lamp Black 0 15 1
Brown Oxide 0 3 1
Medium Yellow 0 1 1
================

When you get home, you can fill the empty quart can with untinted UPW and mix it really well with the drill attachment. Out of the quart can you have a neutral N7 according to Xrite. In the gallon can you have three quarts of untinted UPW. If Bill could provide a color graph with the UPW and N7 points on it then draw a line from one to the other that will show you all the shades of gray you can make. The more untinted UPW you use the closer it will be to the UPW end of the line. The more N7 tinted UPW you use the closer it will be to the N7 end of the line.

I'll do a graph later when work calms down. One thing to keep in mind though, UPW itself is not neutral or really very close to it. It's a nice bright white and as we know white is the easiest and most forgiving with color shift issues (unless it's insanely out of balance, but then it would be a color and not white right?

) Current known readings for UPW are 248 248 241 from Behr, and 246 246 243 from another indepenant source. An N7 shade is 175 175 175, with some slight leeway up and down a point or two in luminousity. So what we need to keep in mind is this, the more UPW that is added, the further away from the neutral tolerance it will move. Luckily, as stated light colors don't tend to push as hard.

So a 3:1 of Behr N7 (or Neutral 7 as XRite calls it) would be 183 183 183, which a bit too dark still. 2:1 is 192 192 192 which is in the N8 range but a little on the darker side. A 1:1 ratio is 210 210 209, which is still pretty close. From the Lindbloom calculator, L*ab comes out to 84.172696 -0.181046 0.493986 which meets our +/- .5 from 0 tolerance for a neutral. (I want to note that EasyRGB also comes out with virtually the same conversion values). Now these are numbers from database values and other sources, we should test this to make sure, but it does indeed seem sound. As I mentioned though, the more UPW that is added, the further from neutral it is going to move. A 1:2 ratio, or 1 part Neutral 7 to 2 parts UPW and now were at 228 228 226, which is outside the neutral tolerance, but still within the near neutral zone. 1:3 is 237 237 234, which is now well outside our tolerance for neutral or near neutral.

I want to make a strong note that these are only number manipulations and actual readings would need to be done before saying this is a factual set of results.

I doubt that the ratios work out as simple as 1 Part N7 + 2 Parts UPW == N9 and 2 Parts N7 + 1 Part UPW == N8 but who knows. I do know that untinted UPW has a slight blue push to it so the combinations that contain more UPW will be less neutral but UPW alone makes a pretty good white screen. I think Bill has indicated that the darker the gray the more important it is that it be neutral.

Yeah I think everyone is in agreement on that... the darker things go the more of a need to be as close to our neutral point as possible.

I wish I could do these experiments myself but "she who must be obeyed" must in fact be obeyed! At least I am able to tell you how to try every possible shade from UPW white to N7 for only the cost of a gallon of Behr paint and an empty quart can.

At one time I had planed on presenting a "Gray Experimenter's Kit" for those wanting to dial in the perfect shade of gray for their setup and desires. The above materials and instructions form the basis of that idea. There is enough paint there to make up at least a half dozen sample panels 2'x4'.

This is where I think everyone can be working together on things instead of trying to dupilcate efforts... Todd is showing a sliding method that does fill some gaps we presently do not have. For instance, what he outlined above, and the rough numbers only values I showed, we can get an N8 (on the darker side) with a 2:1 ratio, and on the upper end for N8 would be Winter Mountain at 200 201 201.

N8.5 is one that currently has no OTS direct match, but we can get one now two different ways- a 1:1 of Neutral 7 and UPW for 210 210 209, or 1:1 of Winter Mountain and Winter Mist for 210 210 210. In this case, keeping things easy and adhering to the KISS principle, the easiest N8.5 method would probably be the Winter Mountain/Winter Mist method, but for those that only have access to Home Depot and Behr products, it looks like we have an N8.5 solution now too. (Still need to do actual readings, so please, nobody jump the gun at this point)

N9 would be Winter Mist since the 1:2 Behr mix is now outside the neutral specs, but it is still a near neutral. Sherwin Williams Soothing White is also a near neutral for N9.

Like I said, once the Munsell Neutral Gray fandeck gets here we will have neutral grays nailed down for every shade and from every manufacturer. If we can make this kind of progress with optical coatings next year, DIY is going to be sitting in a very good spot as a viable option for anyone.

Here's another use for these DIY options- for the person bulding a dedicated Home Theater room and aren't sure of a white or gray commercial screen, and if gray, how dark... this provides a very inexpensive way for them to determine that. Some may end up deciding to stay with the DIY option, but it is their decision and now they at least have options either way they go. Very KISSable in my opinon

**GbrNole** · **10-03-07, 09:03 PM**

ok i repainted the rest of m screen tonight with the laura ashley (valspar signature) winter wind. i let the paint dry for a couple of hours and then i recalibrated again for color, brightness, contrast and, well, focus because sharpness really doesn't need any adjustment.

while i still would like to be a hair darker to reject ambient light the results now are really good and all the darks that were being crushed to black (will smith's suit from wild wild west etc.) now stand out as being the subtle variations of gray, maroon, brown etc. that they actually are.

opening both iris' on the PJ in a near fully darkened room is now crazy bright and this is still with the PJ in it's best and most dim mode - i didn't even bother checking out dynamic mode since i'm pretty sure it will hurt my eyes.

the only significant change that i had to make was pulling down the red setting 1 click on my color decoder since it was pushing ever so slightly. brightness only came down 1 notch from it's previous setting and contrast went down 2. color setting stayed the same but this was after i had adjusted the red.

obviously i'm far too new to this game to endorse anything but for those wanting something close to N8.5 to try (not sure where N8.5 would truly be but 216 is the midpoint between 202 and 229 and LA WW is a 219 218 218) this is a pretty nice solution from lowes for those that don't have a true value readily available.
the valspar signature matte is decent to work with as well and the sheen provides a decent gain.

if bill's valspar paint trials prove to be accurate and a match for their true value equivalent i have a feeling that lowes will become the best friend of many an HT enthusiast looking for simple one can solutions.

in the mean time i think i've found my happy medium for viewing until we get the data from the great work bill and mech are doing and then i'll happily jump in feet first if y'all need any help/input.

ps. one last thing i am going to look into is getting my local lowes to pull up some of the true value and dunn edwards neutral grays in their database and i'm going to have them look at making those colors up with different base whites to see if the pigment values change from base to base - if they do then i suppose xrite took the bases into consideration when matching the colors so the valspar winter mountain should truly be a match for TV WMntn if this is the case.

**GbrNole** · **10-03-07, 09:21 PM**

dunn edwards perfect palette - porpoise DE6373 has an RGB value of 211 211 211 so that one might be an interesting color match at lowes?

**wbassett** · **10-03-07, 09:34 PM**

Quote:

GbrNole wrote:

dunn edwards perfect palette - porpoise DE6373 has an RGB value of 211 211 211 so that one might be an interesting color match at lowes?

Good find and good call! This is why it's great to have more than one person working on things and providing a set of eyes.

We need to find out if Home Depot has the same MatchRite software that Lowes has. If so, we will have two very easy to find places that people can get anything from an N7 all the way up to an N9.

Great job Gbr!

**wbassett** · **10-03-07, 09:53 PM**

Quote:

GbrNole wrote:

ok i repainted the rest of m screen tonight with the laura ashley (valspar signature) winter wind. i let the paint dry for a couple of hours and then i recalibrated again for color, brightness, contrast and, well, focus because sharpness really doesn't need any adjustment.

while i still would like to be a hair darker to reject ambient light the results now are really good and all the darks that were being crushed to black (will smith's suit from wild wild west etc.) now stand out as being the subtle variations of gray, maroon, brown etc. that they actually are.

opening both iris' on the PJ in a near fully darkened room is now crazy bright and this is still with the PJ in it's best and most dim mode - i didn't even bother checking out dynamic mode since i'm pretty sure it will hurt my eyes.

the only significant change that i had to make was pulling down the red setting 1 click on my color decoder since it was pushing ever so slightly. brightness only came down 1 notch from it's previous setting and contrast went down 2. color setting stayed the same but this was after i had adjusted the red.

obviously i'm far too new to this game to endorse anything but for those wanting something close to N8.5 to try (not sure where N8.5 would truly be but 216 is the midpoint between 202 and 229 and LA WW is a 219 218 218) this is a pretty nice solution from lowes for those that don't have a true value readily available.
the valspar signature matte is decent to work with as well and the sheen provides a decent gain.

I like the fact that it's a matte finish, that's a plus right there all alone. As far as being 'new', you're doing fantastic and picking this up very fast.

With all these Munsell ratings, there is some flex as far as luminosity. The Y value can vary a few points, but the xy needs to stay within tolerances. So yes, this would be an N8.5 shade.

if bill's valspar paint trials prove to be accurate and a match for their true value equivalent i have a feeling that lowes will become the best friend of many an HT enthusiast looking for simple one can solutions.

They are also fast becoming mine too! But my goal is to identify Munsell matches at all the major paint companies. That way it doesn't matter what a person has easy access to locally, they can get these excellent performing grays no matter where they live. I also think these grays should be looked at for the base for more advanced mixes too, and I even suggested this to a few people that are big players in advanced mix development six to eight months ago.

XRite is an extremely reputable and reliable company when it comes to the color industry, so I would also think they took the differences in base paints into consideration, but... as you guys have seen I'm pretty tough on verifying things, especially something I am personally standing behind.

in the mean time i think i've found my happy medium for viewing until we get the data from the great work bill and mech are doing and then i'll happily jump in feet first if y'all need any help/input.

ps. one last thing i am going to look into is getting my local lowes to pull up some of the true value and dunn edwards neutral grays in their database and i'm going to have them look at making those colors up with different base whites to see if the pigment values change from base to base - if they do then i suppose xrite took the bases into consideration when matching the colors so the valspar winter mountain should truly be a match for TV WMntn if this is the case.

Lowes is looking like a one stop shop, but Home Depot may have the same software. Let me see if I can confirm that tomorrow.

**wbassett** · **10-04-07, 11:48 AM**

Well I called Home Depot. They can call up some brands but not all. So they aren't using the same software that Lowes uses. The one company in particular that was not listed... True Value. They did have Benjamin Moore, Ace, Sherwin Williams, and Dutch Boys listed.

Ace was the same, only had limited brands they could pull up on their system.

Sherwin Williams was the same- only a limited number of manufacturers they could pull up.

I will be having the Munsell fandeck color matched from all the various companies and also we'll get actual spectrophotometer readings on all of them to confirm if they are still within tolerance. Right now though it looks like the only company that has a list of every brand of paint is Lowes.

**GbrNole** · **10-04-07, 01:59 PM**

Figures - i got side tracked at lunch so i'll have to quiz lowes with my 50 questions tonight but i did find that porter paint have a color extremely close to an N9 in their design spectrum color collection #7161 salt gray. it's RGB is 177 176 176.

porter's silken touch, high hiding and vinyl flat paints are awesome to work with and roll very well.

PPG paint (all part of the pittsburgh and porter paint group) also has a color that is probably a hair too dark with their 518-4 its RGB is 171 172 171

both PPG and Porter are off the mark with their lighter grays but the people i spoke to at the local porter store said they can match **any** paint color. they were quite emphatic about that too so i need to investigate more since you can actually buy quart size cans of their premium paints.

**wbassett** · **10-04-07, 02:28 PM**

Excellent info Gbr.

Sherwin Williams said they may soon carry the Duration matte finish in quart sizes, but that's not a really big deal. Gray Screen really is nice and works very well, but going in I knew it wasn't totally neutral, just a near neutral in the N8 shade. Actually that's why I tried it, it's slightly red deficient and the concept is incandescent lighting adds red, so that seemed like an interesting thing to check out, and yes it does seem to work.

There are other brands that were identified as actual neutrals though, but didn't come in the matte finish, only flat, eggshell and so on. If Lowes ends up being a complete match right down to the color balance, that won't matter. Now people can get Winter Mist/Mountain in a matte finish from Lowes in the Valspar brand and in a matte finish... very cool news.

**GbrNole** · **10-04-07, 03:09 PM**

i've always been under the impression that matte and flat are interchangable words used by different manufacturers and the only real difference between the two is whether one is latex or acrylic based?

i had one other thought though - you guys have found that poly can knock down hot spotting and most paint manufacturers recommend eggshell finishes when you intend to apply a glaze or poly coat to the top of them.

if / when you find out what true effect poly has on color i wonder how well it will work if a neutral gray is painted in an eggshell with a poly top coat? sounds like a nice little gain might be had?

**wbassett** · **10-04-07, 03:18 PM**

Depending on who you talk to, some say flat is the same as matte, but talking to Sherwin Williams they said it's a very slight sheen, between eggshell and flat. Duration actually has Matte on the label too, so it's not a typical flat paint.

Honestly, I haven't had a need to put poly on any of my screens. I have a pretty bright projector too and don't hot spot.

Poly over eggshell, don't think anyone has tried that. Maybe Todd has though. Oh, just because I said I don't think anyone has tried that doesn't mean I am saying not to test it. I'm sure it's been done, I just don't remember reading about it and like I said, I don't have poly on any of my screens right now.

**GbrNole** · **10-05-07, 11:42 AM**

ok success!!! i'm quite excited right now

i had a teacher conference with my daughter's MWA teacher this morning so i stopped by lowes on my way back to the office.

walked in an eyed up the paint staffers and was happy to see:

a) they were dedicated paint mixing employees and not someone who was just filling in.
b) from my initial questions they were confirming what i was hoping.
c) they were both very nice ladies that allowed me to stick my nose much further into the lowes computer matching system than i'm sure any of the guys might have

with that information in hand i asked if it was possible to pull up **any** color? "no sir" OH NO!!!! sir, we can generate most any color except for flex bon and ralph lauren brands. HAPPY HAPPY JOY JOY!!!

i pulled out my data for that 210 210 210 perference i had and as noted above i found that Dunn Edwards had a color named Porpoise in their Perfect Palette color group (#DE6373) that had an RGB of 211 211 211 so this was close enough for my liking.

Gbr:Can you make this color?

Lowes: Sure let me pull it up on the PC and see what it recommends.

Gbr: By recommends i guess you mean you can make it from different sheens? (i was digging here)

Lowes: well sheen is important but we have a few different bases that would be necessary for certain colors to be made (bingo!!!)

Gbr: oh so you can plug in the paint manufacturer and color that is desired then select from different grades of bases to make it?

Lowes: sure can, come over here and take a look. here's the paint manufacturer, Dunn Edwards, here's the color group, Perfect Palette and here is the color, Porpoise. It's a gray color.

Gbr: yep sure is, a very neutral gray.

Lowes: ok now we can select a base. the computer shows here that this color can be generated with valspar, valspar signature and olympic bases - which would you like?

Gbr: well i want valspar signature in a matte finish but if you're not too busy is there any chance you could run a little experiment and conform a question for me?

Lowes: sure what is it?

Gbr: could you tell me if the computer recommends different shots of color for the different bases?

Lowes: no problem. ok first here is standard valspar flat paint, it uses the same base system numbering as valspar signature so the results are almost the same but i do see a slight difference.

Gbr: hmm i see that (lowes number things a bit differently with 105 codes and such)

Lowes: ok here is the formula for olympic. olympic uses a different base color so this time the listed formula is definitely different, not a whole of a lot different but definitely different.

Gbr: ok this is exactly the information i was looking for. i'm not going to hold you to being 100% accurate but all the important raw data has obviously been taken into consideration so only small errors could be left to occur right?

Lowes: sir, we're perfect! well no we're not really machine calibration errors can occur and the base is only as good as the plant that filled it but i can say with certainty that we will be as close as the Dunn Edwards store probably will be.

Gbr: that's good enough for me - mix me some up please!

Lowes: a quart sir?

Gbr: no give me a gallon because i know i'll get some other hair brained scheme.

Lowes: do you mind if we ask what the paint is for?

Gbr: no, no it's for a projection screen. bunch of other guys did the much important leg work and i'm just benefitting from what they found but the stuff you were just able to tell me has helped confirm a couple of questions.

Lowes: well good luck and glad we could help.

Gbr: me too and to be honest i'm quite excited - all this over paint!

well just to end my very long winded story i have a gallon of what i can only consider to be VERY neutral medium light gray paint. it has no hint of color one way or another at all. i have no idea if it would read 211 211 211 but as i said it has no green, red or blue look to it.
conversely the Laura Ashley color that i had made up earlier this week (Winter Wind) was a lighter shade of gray but had color values of 219 218 218 and that little bit of red elevation showed in the paint mix by giving it an extremely subtle lilac hue.

hopefully i will have enough time this weekend to paint the screen and get some pictures taken for comparison.

**wbassett** · **10-05-07, 11:56 AM**

Lowes is getting more and more points every day!

**wbassett** · **10-05-07, 12:47 PM**

Quote:

GbrNole wrote:

the nice thing with this paint is that there is no need for a protective coating but since i bought a gallon i was wondering what effect a non color bias pearlizing medium might have if i put one or two ounces directly into a quart of paint?

that would be my test panel paint if any.

I honestly have no idea which direction it is going to take it in, but it will change the balance some.

I'm also not sure if we have a non color bias pearlizing medium right now.

**GbrNole** · **10-05-07, 01:46 PM**

oh the one thing i did forget to ask at lowes was if they are capable of matching the munsell base colors?
figured this was a huge longshot anyway but by the same token i'd be less than surprised if a color code happened to be available on their system.

**wbassett** · **10-05-07, 01:58 PM**

Quote:

GbrNole wrote:

oh the one thing i did forget to ask at lowes was if they are capable of matching the munsell base colors?
figured this was a huge longshot anyway but by the same token i'd be less than surprised if a color code happened to be available on their system.

I already asked... they don't have them in their system. With a fandeck they can though.

**mechman** · **10-05-07, 03:17 PM**

This is great news Gbr!! BTW you needed a gallon so you can send me a small sample of it for spectro testing!!

mech

**GbrNole** · **10-05-07, 03:20 PM**

no problem mech. PM how and where and i'll send it on up to the soon to be frozen yonder...

**mechman** · **10-05-07, 04:30 PM**

When I get the spectro back I'll pm you. I'd suspect it will be next week. All I'll need is a painted sample something 2X2" would be just fine. Thanks!

mech

**GbrNole** · **10-09-07, 08:59 AM**

here are the results of my latest foray please keep in mind that the projector color, brightness and contrast are still adjusted to the laura ashley winter wind paint so colors look a little bit off.

below - laura ashley winter wind 219 218 218 on the right, dunn edwards porpoise 211 211 211 on the left

and now for some randome screen shots still from wild wild west to keep things consistent.

no ambient light

lots of ambient light

rest of the shots in the dark

i adjusted my camera settings and delay so these shots were at iso 100

i need to finish painting the screen and adjust the PJ over again but i definitely like what i'm seeing thus far. blacks are still holding the detail that was being crushed in EF06 and whites / brights are not getting that deeper cast that almost looks hazy.

i think this will tide me over quite well now until we finally get to see the accurate results or aluminum

**mechman** · **10-28-07, 03:11 PM**

I'd like to add here that while some may think it would be beneficial to list a bunch of neutral grays and where they lie in relation to the Munsell system. It's much easier to just browse over to EasyRGB.com and punch in the numbers for the neutral you're looking for.


		N8 = 202 202 202 N9 = 229 229 229 N8.5 = 215 215 215 and so forth...

Then you would select the paint manufacturer you prefer and select match. It's really that simple! Some manufacturers may not have matches for what you're looking for, but if you have a Lowes nearby nothing matters anyways as they can match just about anything into a Valspar base.

mech

**texfrazer** · **11-04-07, 01:29 AM**

Thanks for all of the info! I noticed one interesting thing with EasyRGB: True Value's Winter Mist doesn't get listed if I use 210 210 210. Strange!

**cynical2** · **11-04-07, 02:33 PM**

Quote:

texfrazer wrote:

Thanks for all of the info! I noticed one interesting thing with EasyRGB: True Value's Winter Mist doesn't get listed if I use 210 210 210. Strange!

Yeah, it depends on the algorithm they use.

Winter Mist is 220,220,220.

It looks like EasyRGB uses the total deviation from each color component and also gives some weight to the balance between the 3 when choosing the closest match.

So, when you put in 210,210,210...the total deviation from Winter Mist is 30 (R,G, and B are off 10 points each).

The top 3 matches have a total difference of 9 points, 20 points, and 13 points. Note that the 2nd match is 20 pts off, but more "balanced" than the 3rd match that's only 13 points off.

The "worst match" it returns is Winter Mountain at 200,201,201...total deviation of 28.

Anyway, I don't know exactly what criteria they're using...but it clearly includes both color (thr balance between the R,G, and B components) as well as the shade (luminance level).

Bill may know the specifics of how they compute the top 3 color matches...I know he's been in contact with the EasyRGB creator.

**texfrazer** · **11-09-07, 04:16 PM**

Ah, that makes a lot of sense! I forget that everyone isn't using the tools for the same reason we are (silly me!).

**cynical2** · **12-01-07, 12:57 AM**

I came across a site called myperfectcolor.com that sells sample sized cans (and quarts and gallons) of paints that supposedly are "perfect matches" for a wide variety of paints.

After some searching, I was also able to locate neutral grey Munsell paints. For anyone interested, below is a table showing the paint numbers for N6 through N9.5:

This is not useful for ordering enough paint for a screen (too much $$$), but the samples and/or color names listed above could be helpful for color matching at local stores.

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