Neutral Grays and Simple Off the Shelf Solutions

**mechman** · **12-01-07, 01:35 PM**

Excellent find Jim!

mech

**coolhead** · **03-23-09, 09:54 PM**

Quote:

wbassett wrote:

A while back I had a thread going elsewhere about screen color matching with a very interesting discussion about colors. Here is a chart gives a nice visual representation of what the colors look like and how they compare to each other and also has the RGB values.

I took the RGB values and plotted them on a graph. I like the graph in addition to the swatch chart because I can see the order from light to dark, plus when graphed you can see the color curve better. We always look for a neutral color, but it is interesting to see a lot of commercial screens are slightly green deficient.

What I did next was look at the local paint stores that were close to me. There are a couple of Lowes and Home Depots, but unfortunately Behr, Glidden, or Valspar are not included in the database so I didn't have any matches for what Lowes or Home Depot sells. There is a True Value right in my home town, and over in Bennington VT (a short 9 miles away!) there is a Sherwin Williams store.

So I narrowed things for a nice Munsell N8 match to either Winter Mountain from True Value with an RGB value of 200 201 201, or Sherwin Williams Gray Screen which comes it at 199 203 203.

I ended up going with Gray Screen SW7071 for my first test. The reason why is it comes in a very durable matte finish, and Winter Mountain only comes in the flat finish. Flat paints are okay, but they are not very easy to clean, and flat paint can get dirty or smudge very easily. Also matte is the same surface that commercial screens have, so I was intrigued with Sherwin Williams.

When I walked through the door, there was a display for the Duration brand in the matte finish. One panel was painted with a flat white, the other with the Duration matte white. There were markers there and the display encouraged you to draw on both panels... which I did

Then I took the spray bottle and sprayed water on each panel... the marker drawing on the Duration matte finish actual started to come off just by being hit with the water. A quick whip with a paper towel they had there and it came completely off while the flat paint panel remained marked up. I was sold! Anyone that knows me and the extensive torture testing I did with the laminates knows I like a tough and durable screen, and for a painted screen this is pretty durable stuff.

I searched with no luck...but which of your BW formualtions is closes to Firehawk from Stewart? I am attempting to locate a manual stewart firehawk for a reasonable price but not easy....It seems to me that stewart is doing something similar to bw with "flakes' as you can see reflective particles through out the surface but not sheen or beads?

**wbassett** · **03-23-09, 10:49 PM**

Quote:

coolhead wrote:

I searched with no luck...but which of your BW formualtions is closes to Firehawk from Stewart? I am attempting to locate a manual stewart firehawk for a reasonable price but not easy....It seems to me that stewart is doing something similar to bw with "flakes' as you can see reflective particles through out the surface but not sheen or beads?

I need to go back and edit that section of this thread. It's not that the information is wrong, it's just at the time the person that did the readings referenced C instead of D65. They are close, but will give different readings. Thanks for bringing this back up, it jogged my memory to get the updates to this thread done!

Right now there is only one 'formulation' of BW, that is the AAA-F with Bermudia Beige. The Henry version was dropped because Henry, like Black Jack isn't readily available to everyone, and it's expensive to buy online (Shipping). Also over the long haul, the Henry version ended up yellowing slightly, something we did not see because it takes awhile for it to happen. So we dropped it as a recommended method.

The FireHawk from the chart, when converted to D65 it comes out to 146 150 152 with a temp of 6855K.

Keep in mind this the G2, and that is no longer made. Mech has some samples coming of the new FireHawk so we will be getting some new readings soon as well as gain readings. The G2 was down around an N6 gray though.

**coolhead** · **03-24-09, 08:48 AM**

Quote:

wbassett wrote:

I need to go back and edit that section of this thread. It's not that the information is wrong, it's just at the time the person that did the readings referenced C instead of D65. They are close, but will give different readings. Thanks for bringing this back up, it jogged my memory to get the updates to this thread done!

Right now there is only one 'formulation' of BW, that is the AAA-F with Bermudia Beige. The Henry version was dropped because Henry, like Black Jack isn't readily available to everyone, and it's expensive to buy online (Shipping). Also over the long haul, the Henry version ended up yellowing slightly, something we did not see because it takes awhile for it to happen. So we dropped it as a recommended method.

The FireHawk from the chart, when converted to D65 it comes out to 146 150 152 with a temp of 6855K.

Keep in mind this the G2, and that is no longer made. Mech has some samples coming of the new FireHawk so we will be getting some new readings soon as well as gain readings. The G2 was down around an N6 gray though.

Yes the firehawk does seem quite dark....have you put it under a microscope to see what's going on?

If you get the new formulation and best guess as to what's in it I would be happy to be a tester.

**mechman** · **03-25-09, 07:15 AM**

Quote:

coolhead wrote:

Yes the firehawk does seem quite dark....have you put it under a microscope to see what's going on?

If you get the new formulation and best guess as to what's in it I would be happy to be a tester.

Screen manufacturers do things quite differently than diy paint. Some consist of multiple optic layers stacked upon each other (DNP -Supernova) and some consist of glass beads 9 microns in diameter embedded into a white vinyl field and covered by a thin elastic top layer (High Power). Even if we knew what it was that made some of these materials tick, the odds of reproducing it in a garage are slim.

I have to admit that I've done very little research on the Firehawks. But I do have samples coming for review. If it's like some of the other manufactured materials, it's not something we could recreate. Also, how do you think Stewart would react if I asked for samples for review and then we proceeded to attempt to build a diy version of it? I'm certain they wouldn't be pleased.

We (the moderators of this screen forum) have agreed to not compare any manufactured material to diy material. It would be a disservice to the manufacturers.

If you're looking for a diy paint I'd recommend either Black Widow or Cream and Sugar. If you want something in between than you may want to sign up to be a beta tester of the new N8 diy paint mix coming out soon.

**coolhead** · **03-25-09, 11:12 AM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Screen manufacturers do things quite differently than diy paint. Some consist of multiple optic layers stacked upon each other (DNP -Supernova) and some consist of glass beads 9 microns in diameter embedded into a white vinyl field and covered by a thin elastic top layer (High Power). Even if we knew what it was that made some of these materials tick, the odds of reproducing it in a garage are slim.

I have to admit that I've done very little research on the Firehawks. But I do have samples coming for review. If it's like some of the other manufactured materials, it's not something we could recreate. Also, how do you think Stewart would react if I asked for samples for review and then we proceeded to attempt to build a diy version of it? I'm certain they wouldn't be pleased.

We (the moderators of this screen forum) have agreed to not compare any manufactured material to diy material. It would be a disservice to the manufacturers.

If you're looking for a diy paint I'd recommend either Black Widow or Cream and Sugar. If you want something in between than you may want to sign up to be a beta tester of the new N8 diy paint mix coming out soon.

I assume just looking at a sample would not give away all it's secretes as then any one could make any of these screens (including other suppliers). On that thought I just spoke with a fella who said vultec, dalite, and others get many of the fabrics from the same supplier (never heard this before but would not shock me if that were true).I just figured if firehawk was the standard (as noted on many home theater sites)the colour of grey they use might be a good place to start in "painting a screen". I believe stewart sprays screens and builds up layers....when looking at the surface you can also see "flakes" every so often so it seems to me they are going more the reflective particle (as in aluminum or some other medium) as opposed to beads or shean.

Stewart is sending me samples as well...they were easy to get I should have them by friday. Hopefully the samples won't be of the 2"x4" variety that elite sent me (I had to tape 6 togeather to get any type of viewable size). Dalite sent 12"x12" which were more usable as guess as to what the screen would look like.

I may be back to trying the BW sprayed on an dalite HC pull down as a tester (I have the screen and it is no longer the correct set up for my current room/projector). I would love to see how it compares to the other samples I have gotten.

**wbassett** · **03-25-09, 11:35 AM**

As far as a good place to start for painting a screen, if a person is looking for a gray screen, this thread is probably the perfect place to start. A neutral screen will always provide the best palate and provide the most accurate color reproduction.

Unless things changed, the G2 wasn't very neutral, and the darker the screen is, the harder it will push colors if it isn't a well balanced screen. One thing to keep in mind about installers is profit margin. So it doesn't necessarily mean just because one thing is used that it's the best- could just be that it yields the highest profit margin.

The bigger thing though is evaluating what type of screen would work best for you. Many people jump on one type of screen without truly evaluating their complete room setting as well as the projector.

**mechman** · **03-25-09, 01:05 PM**

Quote:

coolhead wrote:

I assume just looking at a sample would not give away all it's secretes as then any one could make any of these screens (including other suppliers). On that thought I just spoke with a fella who said vultec, dalite, and others get many of the fabrics from the same supplier (never heard this before but would not shock me if that were true).I just figured if firehawk was the standard (as noted on many home theater sites)the colour of grey they use might be a good place to start in "painting a screen". I believe stewart sprays screens and builds up layers....when looking at the surface you can also see "flakes" every so often so it seems to me they are going more the reflective particle (as in aluminum or some other medium) as opposed to beads or shean.

As I said, I'm unsure what or how Stewart makes their screens at the moment. I have yet to see one.

Hopefully soon though!

Quote:

coolhead wrote:

Stewart is sending me samples as well...they were easy to get I should have them by friday. Hopefully the samples won't be of the 2"x4" variety that elite sent me (I had to tape 6 togeather to get any type of viewable size). Dalite sent 12"x12" which were more usable as guess as to what the screen would look like.

I may be back to trying the BW sprayed on an dalite HC pull down as a tester (I have the screen and it is no longer the correct set up for my current room/projector). I would love to see how it compares to the other samples I have gotten.

Talk to Harp about a BW-flex mix he's been testing.

Stewart usually sends 8.5X11" samples I was told. I'm supposed to get large samples - 24" square or larger. You can always call them back and say you're not convinced and you'd like a larger sample.

**coolhead** · **03-25-09, 02:20 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

As I said, I'm unsure what or how Stewart makes their screens at the moment. I have yet to see one.

Hopefully soon though!

Talk to Harp about a BW-flex mix he's been testing.

Stewart usually sends 8.5X11" samples I was told. I'm supposed to get large samples - 24" square or larger. You can always call them back and say you're not convinced and you'd like a larger sample.

They "stewart" are sending firehawk g3 and sst i believe...if I get mine before you and decide against it I will be happy to send to you

I have a few leads on Stewart screens with prices closer to reality ( I give Stewart big props for being able to get folks to pay thousands for their screens but I am not in that group) and if I like Stewart and don't buy one I may try to make one?

If I start the process with the BW painting I will also try a "fh" BW buy using a grey closer to them to test and see how they all look compared to each other (all the samples and BW and "FH"BW).

**coolhead** · **03-25-09, 02:28 PM**

Quote:

wbassett wrote:

As far as a good place to start for painting a screen, if a person is looking for a gray screen, this thread is probably the perfect place to start. A neutral screen will always provide the best palate and provide the most accurate color reproduction.

Unless things changed, the G2 wasn't very neutral, and the darker the screen is, the harder it will push colors if it isn't a well balanced screen. One thing to keep in mind about installers is profit margin. So it doesn't necessarily mean just because one thing is used that it's the best- could just be that it yields the highest profit margin.

The bigger thing though is evaluating what type of screen would work best for you. Many people jump on one type of screen without truly evaluating their complete room setting as well as the projector.

Yes i agree for $$$ is not always better...just trying to test all I can to understand what is availible and at what cost.

Not sure if it is marketing but most folks (even other screen companies) are telling me it's the best (stewart FH) so I would like to see in my room with my projector (ax 200u) what is produced...and I understand you won't compare diy to man screens but it doesn't mean I can't

**jimwhite** · **03-27-09, 09:13 AM**

Quote:

coolhead wrote:

If I start the process with the BW painting I will also try a "fh" BW buy using a grey closer to them to test

Could be fun since BW contains no grey...

**coolhead** · **03-31-09, 08:43 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

As I said, I'm unsure what or how Stewart makes their screens at the moment. I have yet to see one.

Hopefully soon though!

Talk to Harp about a BW-flex mix he's been testing.

Stewart usually sends 8.5X11" samples I was told. I'm supposed to get large samples - 24" square or larger. You can always call them back and say you're not convinced and you'd like a larger sample.

Got FH G3, FH SST, GH, and studio 130 in today and did a little testing. First thought is the colour of the screen is the color of the fabric as in the vinyl is the same colour all the way through (dalite screens I believe are applied to a blackk backing as is the case with my high power...white front black back). The back, front, sides of the stewart samples are the same colour. The "viewable side" looks to have an application of highly reflective particles (not beeds or sheen)I think they are sprayed on not rolled on (stewart talks about sparying and building up layers on as opposed to rolling out screens). I have never seen a BW screen but let's put it this way based on what I've read I think it would look very similar (not the shade of grey but the small reflective particles)

and would not be shocked to find out the "shiny particles" I am seeing on the stewart samples are a metal of sorts

they may not rush to send you samples.....

**mechman** · **04-01-09, 12:22 AM**

Well I haven't seen anything from Stewart yet...

And it was supposed to have been shipped out before yours.

Da-Lite uses a fiberglass material for some of their screens. I have the Joe Kane screen sitting in my office. But I haven't opened the box yet.

**coolhead** · **04-01-09, 07:56 AM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Well I haven't seen anything from Stewart yet...

And it was supposed to have been shipped out before yours.

Da-Lite uses a fiberglass material for some of their screens. I have the Joe Kane screen sitting in my office. But I haven't opened the box yet.

The "dragonfly screen" high contrast/grey should arrive thursday or Friday (dragonfly has to be one of the worst names for a projector screen) and I'll do some comparisons between it, dalite hp 88" screen, and stewart samples. If I decide to keep the "new" dragonfly screen I will be happy to send you the stewart samples if you like (they are about the size of standard sheet of paper).

**wbassett** · **04-03-09, 01:48 AM**

Honestly... if you are talking about an 88" diagonal screen... I'd personally recommend an OTS grey.

**coolhead** · **04-03-09, 11:56 AM**

Quote:

wbassett wrote:

Honestly... if you are talking about an 88" diagonal screen... I'd personally recommend an OTS grey.

I assume OTS is off the self grey?

I have to have pull down as the screen goes over a window............the Dragonfly is a tab tensioned electric screen high contrast grey. I paid $200.00 at it was delivered today....just opened the box but have not yet seen the screen surface. Hope it produces a good picture because $200 for a brand new tab tensioned electric screen is not a bad deal.

**Arizphil** · **10-15-09, 11:58 PM**

Please help me if you can. I am painting the walls of a theater and have tested the Munsell N7 formula you provided. It is too light. I have searched and searched to find the formula for a match to Munsell N5 and N4 and have come up short. Can you guys help?
Thanks in advance,
Phoenix Phil
PS I was using the formula in Behr UW paint

**Harpmaker** · **10-16-09, 02:51 AM**

Hi Phil, welcome to the forum!

As luck would have it, I recently had a Munsell N6 and N5 matched at Home Depot using Behr paint.

I had a quart of the N6 made before I realized that Home Depot now has 8 oz. samples available.

N6 match
1 Quart of Behr Deep Base #1854

Code:

Tint     oz.     384th oz.
B         1         6
C         0       79
F         0       22

N5 match
8 oz. sample jar Behr Deep Base.

Code:

Tint      oz.     384th oz.
B          0          95
C          0          16
F          0            7
KX        0         170

I had N4, N3 and N2 matched too, but the neutrality wasn't as it should be for use in making screen mixes (too blue), but they would probably work fine as wall colors.

N4 (not quite neutral)
8 oz. sample jar Behr Deep Base.

Code:

Tint      oz.     384th oz.
B          0         140
C          0          11
F          0            5
KX        0         130

N3 (not quite neutral)
8 oz. sample jar Behr Deep Base.

Code:

Tint      oz.     384th oz.
B          0         202
C          0          11
F          0            7
KX        0         70

N2 (not quite neutral)
8 oz. sample jar Behr Deep Base.

Code:

Tint      oz.     384th oz.
B          0         255
C          0             5
KX        0          26

Home Depot should be able to easily convert these formulae between 8 oz. samples, quarts and gallons.

**Arizphil** · **10-16-09, 02:15 PM**

Don:
THANK YOU !!
I can't tell you how much I appreciate your prompt and helpful response. I have looked and looked for this information. Oh, and the tip regarding 8 oz. samples is a big help too.
This is great.
Again, thanks VERY much.
Phil

**Harpmaker** · **10-16-09, 05:00 PM**

No problem Phil, glad to be of help.

As far as I know, formulae for making the darker Munsell Grays in house paint don't exist except here!

Something I forgot to put in my last post was what the base was I had matched! The N5 sample was a Kodak Gray Card (used to determine photographic light measurements many moons ago) which IS N5. The other neutrals were samples of Golden Acrylic artist colors in N6, N4, N3 and N2.

Unfortunately, I discovered that for colors darker than N5 Home Depot has problems EXACTLY matching that color; but as I said, the N4 and under matches should work fine for less critical uses such as painting walls where color neutrality isn't quite so demanding.

**Arizphil** · **10-20-09, 03:29 PM**

Sigh,
I am having WAF problems.
Anyone know of a shade of dark purple, burgandy, brown, tan or some similar color that is near neutral, as dark as say, N4, and will not cause my ISF maven to pop a blood vessel?
Thanks,
Phil

**Harpmaker** · **10-20-09, 04:49 PM**

Quote:

Arizphil wrote:

Sigh,
I am having WAF problems.
Anyone know of a shade of dark purple, burgandy, brown, tan or some similar color that is near neutral, as dark as say, N4, and will not cause my ISF maven to pop a blood vessel?
Thanks,
Phil

I understand the WAF problems. Here are some pics from a new build of a HT using a cool N5 (pushed blue a bit) paint for the walls. I think it looks great! http://photobucket.com/ChadHT

I'm afraid your question is throwing me... by definition, any mix that is any of the colors you mention will not be near neutral in color. If you mean colors that are N4 or less in brightness, you are in luck! I've been researching this a bit and today had some samples made up for testing. The colors are Sherwin-Williams, but I had them made up in Behr paint at Home Depot (I love those $3 8 oz. samples!).

Code:

SW 2942 'Liberty Blue' RGB=14, 21, 49 N= 0.8
Behr Deep Base
B     0     44
E     0    203
KX    0     7
V     0     34

Code:

SW 2936 'Black Emerald' (green) RGB=18, 34, 29 N=1.2
B     0     146
C     0      30
D     0     106
KX    0      3

Code:

SW 2912 'Chanticleer' (red) RGB=148, 0, 0 N=3
AK    0      69
KX    0       2
V      0     217

Sherwin-Williams has a nice color picker program here: http://www.sherwin.com/visualizer/#d=c;i=1006 It runs in Flash so it's a bit slow (at least on my old PC).

I found that by simply adding black paint the red color above got darker and turned a nice burgundy.

**Harpmaker** · **10-20-09, 09:02 PM**

Upon further consideration of your question, It might be advisable to create your own custom color by taking a shade of neutral gray slightly lighter than you wish the finished color and then adding the color of your choice to the neutral gray until you get the color that pleases your better-half.

For simply making up a color that you will have computer-matched at Home Depot (or relatively closely matched since shades below N5 have not been exact in my experience) you could use craft paints from a store such as Michael's (their house-brand called Craft Smart comes in many different colors and are quite inexpensive) and add them to your neutral gray. Take a sample of the color you want to Home Depot and have them read it with their spectrophotometer. If however; you might want to literally make your own custom paint I would recommend using a higher quality artist paint such as Liquitex BASICS (matt or regular).

http://www.dickblick.com/products/li...s-matt-colors/

http://www.dickblick.com/products/li...ics-8-oz-jars/

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