New Shackster needs a Painted Screen!

[12th Man]

Howdy y'all!

Brand new to the HTS. My search for a DIY solution landed me here and I immediately recognized many of you fellas from that other place so that was nice. So far this is the only board I have looked at but I love the look and especially the great information stuck to the top. OK...all arse kissing aside....

I'll try to keep this brief and yet provide the information you will need to make some awesome suggestions.

My "theater" is actually a 20x20 game room. There are 2 medium sized windows on the side of the room where the projector & screen are so ambient light IS an issue for daytime viewing. We have 2" faux wood blinds on the windows and plan to get some blackout curtains but for now, there is very little light control when the sun's up.

However, the majority of our usage is after dark, if and when the kiddies actually go to bed. I do watch a TON of football though so I am looking for a solution that performs adequately in moderate ambient light situations while sacrificing the least amount of the pop & color you get with dark rooms & white screens. Am I asking for the Holy Grail?

My projector is the popular Mitsubishi HD1000 and it sits at 17' throw. Currently projecting a 122-130" image to a "builder beige" drywall with light texture. And I must say, it's not bad at all as is so maybe that gives you an idea of my overall expectations. I am not a videophile or perfectionist -- just looking to improve what I can without dropping a lot of $$.

I do not consider myself a handyman so please keep that in mind. However, I do pick things up quickly, follow instructions well, and most of all -- have the time & patience to get it right. Elsewhere it was suggested that one of the more involved spray on Silver mixes would yield the best performance, and be that as it may, I am still intrigued by some of the simpler roll on solutions such as Tiddler's.

So what shall it be? Any advice you can provide is GREATLY appreciated.

[mechman]

12th Man,

Welcome to the Shack! You have many options available to you if you plan on painting a simple neutral gray screen. Take a look at tiddler's Easyflex, Sherwin Williams Gray Screen, True Value's Winter Mountain 1982, etc. I'd start by reading up on tiddler's Easyflex and also read Bill's Neutral Grays and Simple Off the Shelf paints thread. Then come back and fire away. We'll be here for answers!

mech

[mechman]

One more thing to add, when you're looking for some extra punch, check out tiddlers Pearl Clear Coat Trials. And you may find some good info in the Behr Facts about Sheen if you go with Behr Products.

All of the solutions are good ones, it's more a matter what can be acquired easily by you.

mech

[12th Man]

Good morning and thanks for the reply.

I will indeed continue pouring over the threads you mentioned. I spent most of the last few days (at work, no less ) reading and one of the things that lead me to create my own thread, for example, is not knowing which of the 8-9 (?) EasyFlex formulas Tiddle created would be bst for me. I had the Easy-Flex 04 or 05 mixes in mind but I'm not sure what I was basing that on.

Some sort of a "sticky" selection guide for the latest painted screen options would be a GREAT tool to develop but the information here is plentiful and much appreciated.

[wbassett]

12th Man wrote:

Some sort of a "sticky" selection guide for the latest painted screen options would be a GREAT tool to develop but the information here is plentiful and much appreciated.

Todd's EasyFlex are a sliding gray scale much like the Munsell gray scale. He updates the tint formula information but the names remain the same. That way people don't have to run around with a bunch of different application names, some which may have become obsolete and outdated.

The threads I have been working on deal with Off The Shelf (OTS) paints that have been identified as neutrals or near neutral. Together the EasyFlex and OTS options should provide a person with an easily accessible avenue for a base screen. Some of the paints work exceptionally well as a simple one step screen method, others may benefit from the use of a poly or soon pearl clear (optical) coating. Either way it's an easy one or two step application method.

The reason we went this way was to keep things simple yet yield exceptional performance. Some people have a favorite brand of paint, some may not have certain brands available in their area, so doing a one brand only catch all solution limits the options people have.

Todd and I talk on forum and off about this and keeping things simple but good.

We are working on some tools that match projector Lumens, room settings and lighting conditions with recommended application methods. That way a person can do some of the initial groundwork themselves and then ask any questions they may have about a particular application. I can't say when that will be completed, but in the next month or two I hope.

I would like to key it off the Lumen chart and have a breakdown from there, but am open to any input and collaborative efforts anyone wants to provide.

Here is the lumen chart, this may help you on a start as to what your projector can do and from there more details can be gathered for a solution.

Keep in mind even though your projector is rated at 1500 Lumens, your screen size has to be taken into consideration as well as video optimized Lumens.

Based on your first post, with the HD1000U at 17' and the size screen you are putting out you'll have roughly 11-12 fL of light at the screen. At that level I would definitely have to recommend a white screen with a little bit of gain. You need something between 1.2 and 1.3 in gain, and we can point you in a couple of directions.

Wilsonart Designer White is in my opinion pretty much the reference standard when it comes to white screens. Do-able is also a white reference screen in my opinion, but it doesn't come in the size you are looking for. Designer White maxes out at 122" diagonal.

UPW would be one of the painted options, and with the poly coating it also meets your gain requirements.

If you really want something great, check into Rosco's Off Broadway White White. It's a matte vinyl acrylic based paint that is actually acknowledged by Rosco as a screen paint. It's like a liquid version of Designer White. The downside... you have to either order it on-line through them or check their store locater to see if there is a local distributor near you. If I remember correctly it's around $28 a gallon, so you could actually paint your entire wall for an 'inviso-screen'.

Your setup isn't going to be very ambient light friendly at all. Without a screen with gain, you're already at the 'recommend a higher brightness projector' or reduce the screen size or increase the screen gain. Since you're already on the cusp, any ambient lighting is really going to kill the image and wash it out. Gray would be the recommendation, but you are already maxing your Lumen output and the only shade of Gray I would recommend would be nothing darker than an N9 shade. Personally, I think it would be smarter to attack any ambient light issues at the source.

You can get window film at any Lowes or Home Depot that cuts down on the incoming sunlight and UV. Put that up on all your windows and definitely go with some Blackout Cloth for the curtains. (BOC comes in more colors than just white, so you can dress things up a bit too with some color) Between the window film treatment (which is relatively inexpensive and easy to put up) and the BOC you will be surprised at how much control you can take over the situation.

Now for some coolness factor stuff... not necessary, but very easy and very cool...

Remote Controlled Curtains!

Lastly, keep any incandescent light sources away from the screen.

[Tiddler]

Things are crazy at work today, so I will read this thread carefully and reply as soon as I can, but it may be this evening.

[Tiddler]

Quick answer: I think given the ambient light, larger screen, but higher output projector your choice of EasyFlex-5 with a poly top coat will work well. If you want to keep it simple, start with a EasyFlex-04 without the poly but use the Behr Flat Enamel 1850.

I usually get 2 coats out of a quart on a 120" screen so you probably need a gallon of paint and you will get at least one top coat from a quart of polyurethane, maybe two.

Gallon tints:

================
EasyFlex-05
Gallon Behr UPW #1050
0 20 0 Lamp Black
0 08 0 Yellow Oxide
================

================
EasyFlex-04
Gallon Behr UPW #1850
0 16 0 Lamp Black
0 06 Yellow Oxide
================

Be sure to look at the Basic Roller Painting Instructions.

[Harry Muscle]

Sorry to bud in ... I was away for a week or two from the forum and just finally got a chance to read over some of the newer posts. I'm still leaning to go with the #1850 Easy Flex 05 or 06 solution ... but when did the formula change? Is there a post I missed with all the updated information?

Thanks,
Harry

[12th Man]

Harry Muscle wrote:

Sorry to bud in ... I was away for a while from the forum and just finally got a chance to read over some of the newer posts. I'm still leaning to go with the #1850 Easy Flex 05 or 06 solution ... but when did the formula change? Is there a post I missed with all the updated information?

Thanks,
Harry

My first thought was that he only proportionately increased the values to produce a gallon mix since the "standard" formula is for a quart. My second thought was that I am still squarely in the "dont' know what I'm talking about" camp and better let tiddler respond.

[12th Man]

Thanks for chiming in mech, wbassett and tiddler. I am still carefully reading all of your posts and will surely have more questions as I progress my decision making and learning.

I am certainly open to any option and have been looking at laminate as well. I ordered some of the 8"x10" samples of DW and FG from WilsonArt and taped them up in small 16"x20" squares to compare to each other and the drywall. Not big but big enough to show some performance differences. During the day, with blinds closed but leaking in through the cracks, the FG probably looked the best in terms of contrast and retaining detail but it was a tad on the dark side. The DW seemed to do a great job with the colors, especially in a dark room, but it really looked washed out during daytime (a.k.a. football time) testing.

So that's what led me to look at painted options and any solutions that might combine the best of both worlds. I am very intrigued by the possibility of a pearl clear coating to further enhance one of Todd's mixes.

This is fun!

[mechman]

Keep in mind that if you have a True Value or Sherwin Williams nearer to you than a Home Depot that they have options that are close to EasyFlex. True Value's Winter Mountain is an excellent choice as is Gray Screen by SW. These are all grays and all can be top coated with the pearl clear coat. EasyFlex came about by Todd for the convenience factor. A simple tint that can be readily acquired by most anyone. And if you have a Lowe's that's closer yet, I'm sure that between Todd and Bill they can set up something for you.

mech

[12th Man]

All three stores you mentioned (SW, HD & Lowes) are all < 5 miles from me. So my issue will not be access to supply but picking a solution that works for my pj/room.

[Tiddler]

Harry Muscle wrote:

Sorry to bud in ... I was away for a week or two from the forum and just finally got a chance to read over some of the newer posts. I'm still leaning to go with the #1850 Easy Flex 05 or 06 solution ... but when did the formula change? Is there a post I missed with all the updated information?

Thanks,
Harry

I originally used a 2:1 ratio of LB:YO but the spectral reflectance curves from the Behr Color Lab suggested backing of slightly on the Yellow Oxide. The ratio I am working with now is 5:2. I'm not even sure I could tell the difference. I have painted screens with quart formulas of 0 6 0 LB + 0 2 0 YO, 0 6 0 LB + 0 3 0 YO, and I have made up some samples of 0 5 0 LB + 0 2 0 YO. The difference is very slight. the 0 6 0 LB + 0 2 0 YO is a ever so slightly cooler looking than the 0 6 0 LB + 0 3 0 YO.

It is also true that those formulas above were for a gallon. I multiplied the quart tints by 4 to get the gallon tint. His screen is larger than 120" therefore a quart may not make it for two coats.

I was going to add to the post with the tints that the HD1000u at 17' can throw an image from 117" to 144". I would be inclined to go with 120" for a bit brighter image.

[wbassett]

12th Man wrote:

So that's what led me to look at painted options and any solutions that might combine the best of both worlds. I am very intrigued by the possibility of a pearl clear coating to further enhance one of Todd's mixes.

This is fun!

Paint, laminate, cloth, substrate or commercial screen I honestly feel in your situation you need a white screen with a 1.2-1.3 minimum gain and then take control of the ambient light with window treatments, that's exactly what I would do. Gray screens are going to typically be much lower gain than that, and having only 11-12 fL to work with, you're going to drop light fast and end up with muddy looking whites and dull colors. I definitely would not go any lower than an N9 shade as I mentioned earlier.

Here is a relatively easy and inexpensive way to see if white or gray is for you. If you are painting the room anyway, take a look at that link, even if you go with a different paint or screen option you'll only be out a few bucks to get a baseline and test two screens. You probably already have some Kilz2 around the house, and if not I really wouldn't count the price of a gallon as part of the screen cost since you'll be using it around the house for other projects.

By the way, did you check out the remote controlled curtain system?

[12th Man]

wbassett wrote:

I honestly feel in your situation you need a white screen with a 1.2-1.3 minimum gain and then take control of the ambient light with window treatments

wbassett wrote:

Gray screens are going to typically be much lower gain than that, and having only 11-12 fL to work with, you're going to drop light fast and end up with muddy looking whites and dull colors.

For my sitatuion, what are your thoughts on some of the well known SILVER painted screens? It was suggested to me that a few of the recent tweaks to those high gain ("HG") mixes get you higher than normal gain while maintaining reasonable ambient light performance. I know reasonable is a VERY subjective term and those mixes are more complex in terms of ingredients, preparation & application (spray), but I'm just wondering how they compare (for my situation) with some of the options that have been identified on this thread.

My inclination is to start simple and build my way up so I'm considering that heavily as I try to pick a starting point. I had pretty much ruled out a white screen based on everything I've read but you do make some fine points about controlling the source of the light instead of trying to manage AL performance at the screen. (Duh!)

wbassett wrote:

By the way, did you check out the remote controlled curtain system?

Very cool. Let me know if you find a remote controlled "beer & popcorn getter".

[wbassett]

12th Man wrote:

For my sitatuion, what are your thoughts on some of the well known SILVER painted screens? It was suggested to me that a few of the recent tweaks to those high gain ("HG") mixes get you higher than normal gain while maintaining reasonable ambient light performance. I know reasonable is a VERY subjective term and those mixes are more complex in terms of ingredients, preparation & application (spray), but I'm just wondering how they compare (for my situation) with some of the options that have been identified on this thread.

My inclination is to start simple and build my way up so I'm considering that heavily as I try to pick a starting point. I had pretty much ruled out a white screen based on everything I've read but you do make some fine points about controlling the source of the light instead of trying to manage AL performance at the screen. (Duh!)

Very cool. Let me know if you find a remote controlled "beer & popcorn getter".

Since they are a commercial company they should be able to answer questions as to what the gain and color breakdown is on both their commercial versions and the DIY version.

High Gain and higher than normal gain is also subjective and depends on the person. If a pro talks about gain being higher than other applications, there certainly is nothing wrong with asking for the test results and to see some spec sheets.

Starting simple is always a good choice if you don't feel comfortable with some of the advanced mixes and how to apply them. Todd's two step method is a very good screen option and performs just as well as some of the advanced mixes, as much as some may disagree with that.

There are some advantages to some of the mixes out there, how much of a performance increase is also subjective and you'll run into many unresolved debates on that topic.

Do whatever you feel comfortable with and don't let anyone sway you or push you into anything. That's probably the best advice I can give anyone.

[12th Man]

I know that many of these questions have been asked many times and in many different ways so I appreciate your honest and thoughtful responses.

Oh for the simplicity of a laminate. But at $100++ it only makes sense as a beginner to start with one of the simpler paint mixes and work up from there. , what about finding a relatively inexpensive substrate (122") and painting one side with the Rosco's Off Broadway and the other side Todd's EF-05 + a poly/pearl top coat? Overkill? Shoot...maybe the best first step is just a few layers of Kilz2 or UPW.

I think two statements in this thread are contributing to some of the indecision on my part....

tiddler wrote:

Quick answer: I think given the ambient light, larger screen, but higher output projector your choice of EasyFlex-5 with a poly top coat will work well.

and

wbassett wrote:

I honestly feel in your situation you need a white screen with a 1.2-1.3 minimum gain

What kind of gain would I get with the EF-05 + poly option? Would it be anything comparable to unpainted DW?

[wbassett]

First did you have a chance to look at 'see if white or gray is for you'?

I think Todd has some gain data taken awhile back. I'm not sure if things changed since those were taken.

If EasyFlex-5 is an N9 shade then it's something to consider. I have no issues with a gray screen at all, in fact I use one and my primary viewing is at night with total light control. My concern is the fL. Gray can go muddy real quick without enough lumens. People have made dual screens, so don't discount that option.

Are you going to be painting the room? If so I really do recommend painting the wall that the screen will be on with Kilz2 and spending a day or two watching the type of movies and programing you normally watch. Make sure to check out night time and day time viewing so you have a complete baseline. I'm going to say daytime viewing is not going to look very good at all with any light that's not controlled. If you don't like the blacks then progress to an N9 shade. I wouldn't worry about 'pop' at this point, you're just getting a baseline. You're also testing if gray or white suits your tastes.

[Tiddler]