The Behr Facts About Sheen

**Tiddler** · **07-08-07, 07:26 PM**

My Thoughts On Surface Sheen

In my experience experimenting and trying different mixes I have come to view any appreciable amount of surface sheen as the enemy of all roller painting solutions.

The surface sheen combined with roller texture produces a lot of sparkle that is very noticeable and this should be avoided.

I know some people think the Behr Matte Polyurethane #436 adds sheen to the surface in the EasyFlex solution, but I strongly disagree. The matte polyurethane is wetting the flat surface particles of the UPW causing a significant increase in the reflective efficiency of the particles. This does not lead to hot spotting because the rough surface of the latex paint represents a micro texture that diffuses the light.

I have observed that adding some pearl flakes to the clear matte polyurethane results in very noticeable increases in gain without causing hot spotting. I believe this is due to the random orientation of the pearl flakes. That represents an optical texture. The term optical texture was coined by prof55 and I think it is a very accurate description of the effect. All other things aside I must say thanks to prof55 for encouraging me to continue exploring and experimenting with the pearl in clear coats approach.

**KristiSwallow** · **07-08-07, 09:53 PM**

Very good info, keep it up tiddler!

**titch--** · **07-09-07, 01:11 AM**

Hey Tiddler did you ever get a chance to check out the results of Behr Primer #436 with the pearl/poly?

**Tiddler** · **07-09-07, 09:46 AM**

Quote:

titch-- wrote:

Hey Tiddler did you ever get a chance to check out the results of Behr Primer #436 with the pearl/poly?

Post #24

**titch--** · **07-09-07, 05:54 PM**

ah silly me for not reading everything.

So with the poly it wasnt the best then (reduced gain?), but with the pearl to it was ok?

thx

**Tiddler** · **07-09-07, 08:15 PM**

Quote:

titch-- wrote:

So with the poly it wasn't the best then (reduced gain?), but with the pearl to it was ok?

It was a little more than OK! Take another look at these screen shots:

Comparing the Pearl Clear Coat to P436 Sheen Gain:

That panel is amazingly bright and shows no variation from top to bottom. My retractable screen is to the left of it and the P436 to the right. I was not expecting that sort of performance improvement.

The first thing that it makes me wonder is if the base layer has an effect on the performance, other than setting the shade of gray. I will have to duplicate the panel using another base layer that is flat to see how they compare.

**titch--** · **07-09-07, 08:26 PM**

I could see the big difference in the pics you posted, but it seemed that your werent that excited so in that post you showed em in. Thats what I went by.

Im looking forward to your adventure in a different base coat to see how that comes out.

Im going to repaint my screen with something here soon. Im looking at trying SLIVER next to see what all the fuss is about there. That or one of your findings.

cheers

**Tiddler** · **07-09-07, 09:27 PM**

Quote:

titch-- wrote:

Im looking at trying SLIVER next to see what all the fuss is about there.

It would be great to see you try the S-I-L-V-E-R. I not a spray painter but if I understand the idea of duster coats, then this would be an example a DIY solution that controls surface texture and uses sheen the way the the big boys do.

Based on CMRA's comments and instruction this is a solution that needs to be practiced before you attempt the screen. So you would be doing some valuable research even if you did not use it in the end. If you do try it I would suggest you use the Delta Silver Metallic instead of the Behr Silver Metallic. I must admit that so far I have to agree with pb_maxxx, Delta Silver Metallic is the only Silver Metallic that should be used in any DIY Screen solution.

INMO, the possibilities presented by spray painting have not really been explored. At least I have not read any out of the box experimentation with application techniques being tried other than CMRA's S-I-L-V-E-R. In some ways it might be better if some unskilled spray painters, like me, got their hands on a Wagner Control Spray and tried a few things. A skilled painter probably would find it hard to spray wrong to get a frosty textured surface. That's so oppsoite to the whole idea of spray painting isn't it.

**titch--** · **07-09-07, 09:51 PM**

I couldnt pass up on the WAGNER Backyard Solutions - Combo Kit. Found it new on ebay for $25. It came with the control sprayer and deckmate pad system. We are redoing our deck next spring so I thought the control sprayer would make that job abit easier and at the same time try out painting some screens with it.

I thought I would practice sparying by putting multi base coats on. I figured by 5 or so base coats I could get the hang of it.

You think going with CMRA's S-I-L-V-E-R is a good option? It looks cheap to buy and not hard to make up thats for sure.

**Tiddler** · **07-09-07, 11:13 PM**

Quote:

titch-- wrote:

You think going with CMRA's S-I-L-V-E-R is a good option? It looks cheap to buy and not hard to make up thats for sure.

Well now that's a good question. I really have no idea, but the basic concept makes sense. I know the Behr Silver Metallic would probably push blue and the Delta SM would be better choice. A 2oz. bottle of Delta SM is about $1 and a quart of the Faux Glaze will be under $10, so ya it's **** cheap to try it. getting the duster coats right may take some practice though.

If I had the equipment I would sure be tempted to try it myself. Just keep in mind that it is NOT an ambient light screen. It will be very light in color. You could tint the base Kilz2 a bit to get some more ambient light performance out of it. Just remember a primer should be tinted with a 3:1 ratio of Lamp Black to Yellow Oxide. For example: 0 3 0 Lamp Black, 0 1 0 Yellow Oxide. Basically we are talking about a gray base with a frosty textured Pearl Clear Coat with a hint of gray pigment in the clear coat. The Faux Glaze has a sheen so it must not be a glass smooth finish.

Here is MM's photo of the surface he painted:

The inset darker area was modified to increase the contrast and show the surface texture more clearly.

The only way "we" here are going to know if this is a good solution is if you try it. I also am looking at a similar thing using the Matte Polyurethane to carry the Delta Silver Metallic. The "matte" polyurethane means I don't have to get the surface texture to offset the sheen of the Faux Glaze. The only real difference in cost is the Behr Matte Polyurethane at $15 as opposed to the Faux Glaze at <$10. One point in favor of the polyurethane is that it was intended to be used as a clear protextive coating. The glaze was intended to mixed with paint to increase the open time. So the poly may be a more long lasting durable surface. Maybe!

Short answer, No I don't know if it is a good solution. Maybe you will tell us!

**titch--** · **07-10-07, 12:16 AM**

Well I think Im gonna go for it and see whats its like. Im going to start a new topic for it when I get around to it, so this one can get back to where it was before I jumped in.

You say that its NOT a ambient light screen, but if I had a totally light controled room it wouldnt matter then, correct?

thx again

**Tiddler** · **07-10-07, 05:24 AM**

Quote:

titch-- wrote:

Well I think Im gonna go for it and see whats its like. Im going to start a new topic for it when I get around to it, so this one can get back to where it was before I jumped in.

You say that its NOT a ambient light screen, but if I had a totally light controled room it wouldnt matter then, correct?

thx again

It should work great in a light controlled room and with minimal ambient light.

**07-10-07, 04:22 PM**

Tiddler,

Out of all the different paints you've personally tested, which one gave the best absolute performance in a no or minimal ambient light situation?

**Tiddler** · **07-10-07, 07:43 PM**

Quote:

GimliOrcs wrote:

Tiddler,

Out of all the different paints you've personally tested, which one gave the best absolute performance in a no or minimal ambient light situation?

That would be the UPW Flat Enamel with a fairly light gray tint. In the context of this thread of Behr one-can solutions. I still think a gray is beneficial if there is some ambient light.

----------------------------
Quart Custom Tint
Behr UPW Flat Enamel #1850
0 4 0 Lamp Black
0 1 1 Ywllow Oxide
-----------------------------

Is that the very best possible solution of all solutions? No!
That's my best recommendation for a one-can off-the-shelf Behr paint for low to no ambient light.

The results of the up coming Pearl Clear Coat Trials should produce some possibilities to improve on that basic solution. The cool thing is that whatever I come up with for a Pearl Clear Coat recommendation it can be applied over the gray base coat. So you can go with the one can solution now and upgrade it later. There will be the possibility to lighten or darken the overall shade of gray as well as add some gain.

I hope that answers your question.

**benven** · **07-10-07, 07:56 PM**

Quote:

titch-- wrote:

You think going with CMRA's S-I-L-V-E-R is a good option? It looks cheap to buy and not hard to make up thats for sure.

Hi titch, I have tried SILVER. IMO, it is much too glossy and blue. Again, that is my opinion. I am not discouraging you from trying, but thought I would chime in with some unbiased opinion.

Cheers

**Tiddler** · **07-10-07, 09:11 PM**

Quote:

benven wrote:

Hi titch, I have tried SILVER. IMO, it is much too glossy and blue. Again, that is my opinion. I am not discouraging you from trying, but thought I would chime in with some unbiased opinion.

Cheers

Hey Ben!

Great to see you!

If I recall you tried it with the Behr Silver Metallic. Is that right?

I have found the Silver Metallics all seem to go blue in this sort of clear coat except for the Delta Silver Metallic.

Ben, with your spraying experience is it possible to spray a layer that is like a bunch of tiny flattened balls all stuck together? When they talk about duster coats that is what I was expecting they meant.

I absolutely agree with you that the Faux Glaze is way too glossy. The only way this could work is if you are able to create dense enough texture and it has to be deep enough also. There is also the danger of creating a course retro-reflective texture that would be very sparkly looking too. So the whole thing depends on the ability of the spray painter to create the exact right texture.

**titch--** · **07-10-07, 10:34 PM**

Well thanks for the input Ben.

I think Im still gonna give her a go.

**mechman** · **07-10-07, 11:23 PM**

Trevor,

If you do, can you document it along the way and take some pics? Maybe start a new thread on it when you're ready to go? I'd really like to see how it turns out. I take you have no ambient light issues then? Own a HVLP gun?

I was planning on spraying up some of the stuff I've seen elsewhere just to peruse it with my own eyes and see what the hubbub's about. And seeing as how I own a HVLP gun and I'm not afraid to use it...

:raped: I've used mine mainly for finish work. I bought it for painting a screen but then I realized "Why?!?!?!"

But all of this is down the road aways as I just received my first samples today from Carada - they're 8"X11"

So much for a review of that. I don't think I could possibly tell what good they are when they're that size.

**benven** · **07-11-07, 06:50 AM**

Quote:

tiddler wrote:

Hey Ben!

Great to see you!

If I recall you tried it with the Behr Silver Metallic. Is that right?

I have found the Silver Metallics all seem to go blue in this sort of clear coat except for the Delta Silver Metallic.

Ben, with your spraying experience is it possible to spray a layer that is like a bunch of tiny flattened balls all stuck together? When they talk about duster coats that is what I was expecting they meant.

I absolutely agree with you that the Faux Glaze is way too glossy. The only way this could work is if you are able to create dense enough texture and it has to be deep enough also. There is also the danger of creating a course retro-reflective texture that would be very sparkly looking too. So the whole thing depends on the ability of the spray painter to create the exact right texture.

Thanks for the warm welcome!

I did use Behr SM. That is what CMRA used and I had some on hand. So, if it's good enough for CMRA, it's good enough for me.

The way I laid down my duster coats is in rapid succession and with a fine mist so that the paint is almost dry when hitting the substrate. Therefore, the paint really should not slef level. I actually did not get alot of "texture" with the SILVER mix and maybe that is part of why it was glossy. I didn't look at it under any sort of magnification, but to the touch it seemed rather smooth. Not the smoothest I have sprayed and not the roughest I have sprayed.

Hope that helps.

**Tiddler** · **07-11-07, 07:38 AM**

Quote:

benven wrote:

Not the smoothest I have sprayed and not the roughest I have sprayed.

Thinking about the roughest you have ever sprayed, is it possible for a skilled spray painter to spray a 120" screen with a uniform coating that is rough?

If so, is it likely the same person could repeat it? More relevant to us is it likely a relative novice could do it and get a uniform surface with enough texture to offset surface gloss?

**titch--** · **07-11-07, 10:52 PM**

Mech I was thinking of starting a new topic for it with a bunch of pics and posting comments on it. Im not really a paint guru so I might not know what Im talking about sometimes. lol I was thining of starting it this weekend, but I dont know if Ill have the time for it now. Dont know yet.

I watch movies in my basement so I have total light control and just received my Wagner CS last weekend.

I bought the WCS to do things around the house, like when we redo our deck next year. Stuff like that and at the same time I can check out what it can do for the diy screen. I just have no one around here that does this stuff so I just cant run over to someones house to check out what they got and how it turned out. So its up to me to check out different things.

**mechman** · **07-11-07, 11:20 PM**

Excellent Trevor! I look forward to it! You do also know that a couple of folks have tried Silver and thought it wasn't a good screen? I believe both biglyle and benven have tried it and not liked it. Just making sure you know what you're getting into...

**titch--** · **07-11-07, 11:33 PM**

Yeah the way I see it is its cheap and kind of easy to do, so why not.

If I dont like it I can paint over it again. Im willing to play around some to find what I like and what I dont like.

cheers

Advertisement