The Behr Facts About Sheen

[Tiddler]

I was busy making up sample cards with a base gray or white using Behr UPW #1050 flat latex when an old question came up in my mind again. It deals with the available finishes for the Behr paint products. I know adding satin polyurethane to the flat UPW #1050 is done to control the sheen which in turn controls gain. It is also said to add some three dimensional qualities to the image. I have often wondered why not just by the UPW in a finish that produces the desired gain without hot spotting. This idea has been discouraged by many people on other DIY Screen forums so that has just made me wonder even more about it.

I have also played around a bit with primers as a base paint and discovered that most primers, especially stain blocking high adhesion primers, are NOT Flat. Some are much flatter than others but the Glidden "Gripper" (CIL AnyWhere Primer in CDN) is closer to a semi-gloss than a flat finish. I have also noticed that stain blocking primers have a similar appearance to UPW mixed with polyurethane. I therefore suspect there is some form of polyurethane type ingredient in the stain blocking primers.

So as it happens I got side tracked when preparing the samples for the up coming Clear Coat Experiments. I ended up preparing samples of the following and will be conducting some viewing trials on them this weekend.

• Behr UPW Flat Latex #1050, 0 6 0 LB + 0 3 0 YO
• Behr UPW Flat-Enamel #1850, 0 6 0 LB, 0 3 0 YO
• Behr Eggshell-Enamel #2050, 0 6 0 LB, 0 3 0 YO
• Behr "Ultra" Exterior Flat #4050, 0 6 0 LB + 0 3 0 YO
• Behr Exterior Primer #436, 0 5 0 LB, 0 2 0 YO

Behr UPW Flat Latex #1050: is a very common ingredient in many DIY screen paint mixes. It is "FLAT" and the particles are fairly large. It levels out fairly well leaving a pretty smooth flat finish that will hide most wall imperfections.

Behr UPW Flat-Enamel #1850: I snot flat. It is closer to what other paint manufacturers designate an eggshell finish. I called the Behr technical assistance line and they confirmed that Behr finishes tend to be a bit more glossy finish than other manufacturers. This finish is still matte and has a subtle sheen to it.

Behr Eggshell-Enamel #2050: I first purchased this to try expecting an eggshell finish but found it to be quite glossy. A quick test under the projector light showed that it was hot spotting very badly and it also had the glossy roller texture sparkly problem that has kept me away from any sort of sheen in my efforts to develop DIY screen paint solutions. It had only been dry for a couple of hour and now that it has been sitting for a few days that sheen seems to have dulled out some. We shall see this weekend.

Behr "Ultra" Exterior Flat #4050: This is a new offering from Behr. It is an exterior paint that requires no primer and it is supposed to stay new looking twice as long. I purchase a quart of it in the Flat finish expecting it to have some subtle sheen due to it's stain blocking properties. It is a much thinner paint than the interior UPWs mention above. It rolls on very well and levels out quite well. It has sheen similar to the Interior Flat-Enamel.

Behr Exterior Primer #436: A while back I went to Home Depot looking for Kilz2 primer to play with. Here in Canada they don't seem to carry it. They do have Bull’s-eye and some others, so I asked the attendant about the flatness of the primers and he acknowledged that they really aren’t all that flat. He then started taking small samples of the various primers and drying them with a heat gun. The Behr Exterior Primer #436 was the only one that had near flat finish to it. It is similar to the Flat-Enamel finish but slightly more translucent. It is thinner than the interior UPW paints and levels out quite well. It tints darker than the UPW paints so I had to tweak the tint to get a similar gray to the UPW tints.

So that's the lineup. I have painted up some 2'x4' panels of them all except the UPW Flat Latex #1050. I will be painting those tonight. For any of the ones that appear to be hot spotters I made up two panels so we can get a good indication of hot spotting and show it with a screen shot.

I also decided to demonstrate how well the "Flat" latex can tolerate wall blemishes. I will use 2'x4' panels that were used to paint the 7"x11" sample cards. These panels have a lot of bumps and ridges of paint. I will provide some before photos of the roughness of these panels.

I must say that if it were not for the hot spotting the Behr UPW Eggshell-Enamel looked better than my EasyFlex screen. It was a bit brighter and yet the black levels were still quite good. I am anxious to see if the eggshell sheen has dulled down a bit with the paint being cured for several days.

I know I should not count my chickens before they are hatched but I think we will be getting a one-can off-the-shelf DIY screen paint solution out of this. Maybe two possibilities. For those that don't want to spend a lot of time fixing the wall and who will be happy with a neutral gray matte screen, the Behr Ultra may just be the perfect solution. Self priming, scrub able, good leveling and long lasting. It has a subtle sheen similar to primers so it should be better than good old UPW #1050. The Flat-Enamel also looks promising as a one-can solution. That would allow me to add a couple of Behr choices to Wbassett's list of one-can neutral grays such as Winter Mountain and Gray Screen.

Now it's back to the painting then we will see . . .

[Tiddler]

Behr UPW Eggeshell Enamel #2050

The Behr Eggeshell has quite a bit of sheen. It took a couple of days to fully dry to see what the sheen was really going to be like. It is fairly glossy. I must point out that wbassett had a screen that was implemented with this paint and had no problems with hot spotting. The point is "Your Milleage May Vary" with the Behr Eggshell Enamel finish.

Based on my trials at this time I would describe the sheen as being closer to a semi-gloss and I would not recommend it for use as a screen. There may be some circumstances under which it would be great though. A lower lumen projector may benefit from the higher gain. If you are able to spray paint it and are skilled enough to produce a uniform textured surface, it may work quite well.

Generally speaking I would stay away from the "Behr" Eggshell. Other brands that I have used around the house, that were described as Eggshell were lower luster and the person on the Behr help line also confirmed their heens were a bit higher than other brands.

You can clearly see that it is hot spotting in the first photo.





Also take not of the macro photo of the pixel grid. You can clearly see that the roller texture becomes a problem. The sheen coupled with the valleys actually create a sparkly effect when viewing bright scenes.

[Tiddler]

Behr UPW Flat Latex UPW #1050

I wanted to demonstrate one of the great things about a truly flat paint, so I used these two panels for my samples of the Flat UPW.



As you can clearly see these are very rough substrates to use for a screen. I am not advocating that you don't make every effort to create a smooth flat blemish free substrate for your screen. However I wanted to demonstrate that if you are faced with a very challenging substrate like a cement block wall, you may just get away with using a flat paint.

Here are som photos:









Not bad considering how rough they are. Eh!

Now to further drive home the point that it is the flatness of the finish that lets me get away with this, I top coated one of the panels with Behr Matte Polyurethane #780.



Notice that you can see the rough outline on the right panel. I'm not sure why they are not so noticable when off axis but thats what I saw.

[Tiddler]

Behr UPW Flat - Enamel #1850

The sheen is much lower luster than the Eggshell but it is not flat.

I detected no hot spotting.

The roller texture is not noticeable.

The image looks very clear with no sparkling or grainy appearance.

It is not quite as bright as the 6LB+2YO poly top coated retractable screen.












I would recommend using Behr UPW Flat - Enamel #1850 as a one-can off-the-shelf DIY screen paint. It could also be used as the base layer for a clear coat application. The gain boost from the clear coat would not be as drametic as with a true flat latex.

[Tiddler]

Behr Exterior Primer #436

The sheen is higher than the Flat - Enamel.

There is a tendancy to hot spot. It is not overt and may not be a problem with low lumen home theatre projectors.

The roller texture is not noticeable.

The image looks very clear with no sparkling or grainy appearance.

It is comparable in brightness to the 6LB+2YO poly top coated retractable screen.












Hot Spotting Demonstrations:



I would not recommend using Behr Exterior Primer #436 as a one-can off-the-shelf DIY screen paint, especially not with exceptionally high lumen projectors. It could be used as the base layer for a clear coat application. The gain boost from the clear coat would not be as dramatic as with a true flat latex.

The Behr 436 primer also levels out quite well. It is thinner than the UPW paints and the dried sample cards seem to be much more flexible. This would make it a good paint for retractable screens. It does tint darker than the UPW and the 5:2 LB:YO is a little too warm. A 0 5 0 LB + 0 1 1 YO would be very close to the FnEasy-06 tint.

[Tiddler]

Behr UPW-ULTRA Flat #4850

The sheen is flat but with a very slight lustre. The surface feels flat but much smoother than the UPW #1050.

There was no tendency to hot spot.

The roller texture is not noticeable. This paint levels out very well

The image looks very clear with no sparkling or grainy appearance.

The whites are noticeably darker than the 6LB+2YO poly top coated retractable screen. This is of course to be expected with a matte gray screen.












I would recommend using Behr UPW ULTRA Exterior Paint #4850 as a one-can off-the-shelf DIY screen paint, but not with lower lumen projectors. It could also be used as the base layer for a clear coat application. I’m not sure the extra cost would be justified if you are going to clear coat it with Behr Matte Polyurethane #780. It may however be advisable when the pixel size is smaller such as with a 1080p projector or a smaller screen. The smaller particulate would provide more detail.

This is a very high quality paint intended to stand up to outdoor applications with water and sun exposure. Behr claims it will look new twice as long as their other exterior paints. It is a nice paint to apply and it levels out quite nicely. For application where a matte gray screen is desired this would be a very good choice for longevity.

[Tiddler]

Behr UPW #1050 Comparisons

The Behr Exterior Primer #436 was the greatest improvement over the basic Behr UPW #1050 Flat Latex.




The Behr UPW Flat Enamel #1850 is next in brightness followed by the Behr UPW-ULTRA #4850.



Finally the UPW ULTRA $4850 was very similar to the Flat UPW but just a bit brighter and also it should be more long lasting.




The Behr UPW Eggshell Enamel #2050 had the highest lustre of them all. It is closer to a semi-gloss. It might be workable in some circumstances. The substrate would need to be smooth and flat. If applied using the two roller technique it may produce a very smooth surface and that would eliminate the sparkly effect.

[Tiddler]

I did some additional comparisons between the Behr UPW #1050 and the other Behr products. This time I use the facial closeup as a subject. I swapped the sides for each shot to see if the position was having any effect on the results.

Here is the UPW-ULTRA 4850 vs UPW Flat Latex #1050:


Again the UPW-ULTRA 4850 vs UPW Flat Latex #1050:



Now here is the Flat Enamel 1850 vs UPW Flat Latex #1050:



Finally the Behr Exterior Primer #436 vs UPW Flat Latex #1050:


The primer still comes out brightest v followed by the Flat Enamel 1850 and then the UPW ULTRA is close but slightly brighter than the UPW Flat #1050.

[Tiddler]

Finally I started to wonder how well the Behr Exterior Primer #436 would stand up to a neutral gray with a pearl clear coat. The base gray is similar in shade to the primer sample. The pearl clear coat is two 2oz. bottles of Folkart Metallic White Pearl mixed in one quart of Behr Matte Polyurethane #780. The Pearl Clear Coat panel only slightly out performs the Primer.

The first photo demonstrates that the primer matches or slightly out performs the background screen which is a similar neutral gray with a matte polyurethane top coat (FnEasy-06\B780).

Gray\Pearl vs Primer #436


Primer #436 vs Gray\Pearl



The gray base with pearl clear coat is superior but not by a large margin.
The Gray\Pearl seems to out perform the Primer #436 in the off axis shot.
This would indicate a wider viewing cone. But not bad for a tinted primer, Eh!

[Tiddler]

And the winner is . . . .

Actually all these products have some redeeming quality or specific use that they are better suited for.


Behr UPW Flat Latex #1050

This is what I recommend for application that involve a less than smooth substrate. It is worth applying 2 or more coats to fill in cracks and smooth out the bumps. The typical wall blemishes like poorly filled screw holes will not be visible in the image. It may even be possible to use a cement block wall assuming the gout lines are not too deep.

The UPW #1050 also works well as a base coat that will be top coated with a matte polyurethane that may or may not contain some pearl or metallic flakes. The durability of the surface is then determined by the polyurethane. Keep in mind that top coat will cause the wall blemishes to become visible though. If top coating is the eventual goal then the substrate must be flat and smooth.


Behr UPW-UPLTRA Exterior Flat Latex #4850

This product is similar to the UPW #1050 in that it is flat and therefore will provide some blemish hiding. I do not expect it will be quite as good at it though. It is supposed to be a far more durable paint and therefore it would be a good choice where the matte screen surface is the goal and probably will be use that way for an indefinite period of time. Top coat with a matte polyurethane is still an option but the additional coat of the ULTRA may not be warranted if top coating is the plan.


Behr UPW Flat Enamel #1850

This represents a nice choice for a one-can solution. It is more durable than the UPW #1050 and does have a low lustre sheen. That translates into a brighter image. It will show wall blemishes because of this sheen and therefore should be applied to a smooth flat blemish free substrate.


Behr Exterior Primer #436

This is a typical stain blocking primer. It is thin and has some translucent characteristics. It also has a sheen to it and did demonstrate a tendency to hot spot. It is a primer so therefore does not require a separate primer. Therefore it would make a good primer/base coat paint for a clear coat solution.

[Tiddler]

Custom tints using a 5:2 ratio of Lamp Black to Yellow Oxide:

Quart Custom Tints:
Behr Flat Enamel #1850

------------------------------
Light (~N9) Near Neutral Gray
0 2 1 Lamp Black
0 1 0 Yellow Oxide
------------------------------

------------------------------
Medium (>N8) Near Neutral Gray
0 5 0 Lamp Black
0 2 0 Yellow Oxide
------------------------------

------------------------------
*Dark (<N8) Near Neutral Gray
0 7 1 Lamp Black
0 3 0 Yellow Oxide
------------------------------
* Only recommended for
high lumen and high ambient
light condiftions.

Gallon Custom Tints:
Behr Flat Enamel #1850

------------------------------
Light (~N9) Near Neutral Gray
0 10 0 Lamp Black
0 04 0 Yellow Oxide
------------------------------

------------------------------
Light-1 Near Neutral Gray
0 12 1 Lamp Black
0 05 0 Yellow Oxide
------------------------------

------------------------------
Light-2 Near Neutral Gray
0 15 0 Lamp Black
0 06 0 Yellow Oxide
------------------------------

------------------------------
Medium+1 Near Neutral Gray
0 17 1 Lamp Black
0 07 0 Yellow Oxide
------------------------------

------------------------------
Medium (>N8) Near Neutral Gray
0 20 0 Lamp Black
0 08 0 Yellow Oxide
------------------------------

------------------------------
Medium-1 Near Neutral Gray
0 22 1 Lamp Black
0 09 0 Yellow Oxide
------------------------------

------------------------------
Medium-2 Near Neutral Gray
0 25 0 Lamp Black
0 10 0 Yellow Oxide
------------------------------

------------------------------
Dark+1 Near Neutral Gray
0 27 5 Lamp Black
0 11 0 Yellow Oxide
------------------------------

------------------------------
*Dark (<N8) Near Neutral Gray
0 30 0 Lamp Black
0 12 0 Yellow Oxide
------------------------------
* Only recommended for
high lumen and high ambient
light condiftions.

[Tiddler]

I will be posting screen shots and observation in the previous reserved posts. When significant updates have been made I will post a notice to bump the thread.

This is where the discussions start. If someone has already done this work then please post a link to the previous work. It will be useful to see if the Behr finishes have changed at all.

I would also be interested to know if people understand and see the merit in a one-can off-the-shelf screen paint solution. It is not meant to be the best solution but it may be the best choice for some situations and individual requirements.

[Tiddler]

To be more precise the Behr Sheen investigations will be carried out over the weekend. Due to extenuating circumstances I will not be able to post the results in the usual fashion. However the photographic content will be uploaded to my PhotoBucket account and stored in the Behr Sheen Investigations subfolder.

Please do have a look and draw your own conclusions.

[Tiddler]

Also it would be great if you have any thoughts or comments, please feel free to post them to this thread. It would be great to observe some healthy discussions sparked by these last few experiments.

[Tiddler]

I have finished including the various screen shots and comments for these trials.

The Behr Exterior Primer #436 was looking like it would be a pretty good one-can off-the-shelf screen paint. Unfortunately further trials demonstrated some tendency to hot spot. It may work for some people but there is the probability that it would have hot spotting problems.

The application of a matte poly top coat may control the potential for hot spotting.

I prepared 4 panels of the P436 and determined that it will likely hot spot under average conditions. I will top coat of them with just matte poly and one with a 1xPearl clear coat.

Please take a look at all the photos and see what you think.

[Tiddler]

I hung all four Behr Primer #436 sample panels to create a full screen. I took some screen shots but noticed the panels that were just painted did not seem to have as much gain as the ones that had been painted a week ago. I know it takes a couple of weeks for the paint to fully cure so I will try this again in a week or so.







I don't see any strong tendency to hot spot. The color looks good. Whites look white. I was actually able to reduce the brightness to get a more pleasant image.

[Tiddler]

I thought I would kill two birds with one stone, so I have repainted all four test panels with a fresh batch of the Behr Primer #436. I had some Floetrol kicking around and decided tis would be a good chance to see how well it helps the primer to level out. It will cause the primer to take quite a bit longer to dry but that won't matter since all the panels were just repainted at the same time. By next weekend the primer should be well on it's way to curing and we will take another look.

By-the-way, anyone looking for a one-can Home Depot solution right now should us e the Behr UPW Flat Enamel #1850. This will provide a nice matte surface that is washable yet it does have a bit more gain than the plain old UPW #1050. The tints provided in the EasyFlex DIY Painted Screen Solution are applicable to the UPW Flat Enamel #1850.

[titch--]

Very good read.

Waiting for your results.

cheers

[Tiddler]

I threw the four P436 panels up and turned the projector on for a few quick trials. I was disappointed to see that there is indeed a tendency to hot spot.


Hot Spotting Demonstrations:


I have changed the observation in preceding posts to reflect this and changed the recommendation from use alone to useful as a base coat.

I will now try the matte poly and 1xPearl clear coats on one panel each.

It is not a total loss in that the primer mat prove to be a very good base coat. It levels out very nicely and is thinner and more flexible than most paints. The price of a gallon of the primer is the same as a quart of primer and a quart of paint so the result is twice the volume of base coat to work with. This creates the possibility of developing a Gray Experiment's Kit. By that I mean a list of materials and instructions on how to prepare several samples of varying shades of gray. The implementer would then chose the shade of gray that best suites their purposes and preferences. This would then form the base for a clear coated solution.

[Tiddler]

Just thought I would mention, for those who have been paying close attention, the Floetrol may have played a part in this change of recommendation about the Behr Primer #436. It is not supposed to have any effect on sheen but maybe it does.

I only made up one panel of the Behr UPW-ULTRA Flat #4850 so I was thinking I would make up another one with 10% Floetrol to see if the sheen changes.

It may well be that the cure time is effected as well as dry time. Therefore I will retest the P436 panels in a few days to see if the sheen has dulled at all.

I also wanted to describe an intersting observation I have made while looking at and feeling the P436. From off axis angles it appears very flat. No reflection of light like on a well polished floor etc. From straight on it looks almost semi-gloss. However it feels very rough just like the flat latex. I don't know what it all means but it does strike me as being contradictory.

The poly top coat sample and 1xPearl Clear Coat sample panels are drying with two coats on each. I will try to resist the urge to fire up the projector until the weekend. In the meantime I will try that #4850 with some Floetrol to see what effect it has on sheen. By the way Floetrol is a lot cheeper than polyurethane so if it levels the paint and adds just a hint of translucent sheen that would be great.

[titch--]

We all know that you want to fire up your projector.

[Tiddler]

Behr UPW Flat Enamel #1850 & Floetrol

First we will have a look at the surface texture. In both cases I applied the paint using a 5mm White synthetic roller. I then smoothed the paint out with a 6" white foam trim roller.

The photos on the right have 10% Floetrol added to the UPW #1850:





Note: The Floetrol sample panels were new. Therefore it was a perfectly smooth surface to start with. The original sample panel of UPW #1850 was painted before this application of the #1850.


Gain Comparisons



The gain seems unchanged by the addition of the Floetrol.

What struck me was just how well the UPE Flat Enamel #1850 performs against my EasyFlex-06 retractable screen. In these next two shots it is just one of the UPW 1850 panels compared to the EasyFlex screen.




Comments

The Floetrol did help to level the UPW #1850 out more. However the gain seemed unaffected. It is therefore strictly up to the implementor whether or not to use the Floetrol. Just keep in mind that the smoother the finish the more transparent the screen becomes. The addition of 10% Floetrol and 10% distilled water combined with a smooth substrate and the use of the two roller technique can result in a finish that rivals a sprayed finish.

For those wanting a one-can off-the-shelf screen paint I would recommend the Behr Flat Enamel #1850. I would use a 5:2 ratio for a close to neutral color balance.

[Tiddler]

Behr UPW-ULTRA #4850 + 10% Floetrol


The Floetrol samples are on the right:





Note: The Floetrol version was applied to a new sample panel.


Gain Comparisons



The Floetrol did not appear to produce any real gain boost. If there was it was very skight. The use of Floetrol would be up to the implementer to chose. The smoother the finish the more the screen disappears. Using the 10% Floetrol plus 10% distilled water along with the two roller technique very smooth finishes are possible.

The UPW ULTRA actually compared favorably to the EasyFlex retractable screen.


The UPW ULTRA also stood up quite well when compared to the UPW Flat Enamel.



Comments

The UPW ULTRA #4850 is a very good one-can off-the-shelf screen paint. It performs similarly to the UPW Flat Enamel #1850. It is an exterior paint said to stay looking new longer. It levels well and is self priming. It is more expensive than the Flat Enamel but that extra cost can be saved by purchasing a gallon and using it to prime the surface as well as paint it.

[Tiddler]

Behr Exterior Primer #436 Top Coat Trials

The first thing I did was repaint the sample panels that would not have top coats with just the P436 Primer. I wanted to see if the Floetrol had added some sheen and without it would the hot spotting be acceptable.

It Hot Spots:





Matte Polyurethane Top Coat

Poly kills the hot spotting and a lot of the gain:




Here are some screen shots to show the reduced gain of the poly top coat (right) compared to a Pearl Clear Coat:






Comparing the Pearl Clear Coat to P436 Sheen Gain:






Comments

The Behr Exterior Primer #436 would NOT make a very good one-can solution. It is prone to hot spotting. It would make a good base coat as it level out very well and is self priming of course.

For those people looking for some extra gain with good black levels the answer is to found in the Pearl Clear Coats.

[Tiddler]

Final Conclusions

The Behr UPW Flat Latex #1050 is a good paint for substrates that will have some imperfections. For example a wall could be painted with this to facilitate occasional projection screen purposes.

The Behr UPW Flat Enamel #1850 and the Behr UPW ULTRA Flat Exterior #4850 paints would both make good one-can off-the-shelf screen paints. The ULTRA $850 having a slight advantage in being self priming and possibly more durable longterm. The UPW 1850 is less expensive. Either one of these paints would benefit from adding 10% Floetrol and water to allow multiple thin coats to be applied using the two roller technique. This would result in the smoothest possible finish if applied by rolling.

The Behr Exterior Primer is a good stain blocking primer but it has too much sheen and that resulted in hot spotting. It did not seem to perform as well with a poly urethane top coat as the UPW #1050. It did work well as the base coat for a Pearl Clear Coat application. I would not recommend using the primer on it's own. If you do use the Behr #436 Primer I would suggest a 3:1 ratio of Lamp Black to Yellow Oxide. The primer has less Titanium Dioxide and therefore as less tendency to push blue. The 2 or 3 coats of polyurethane also help to compensate for the blue as well.