Best screen for me

**<^..^>Smokey Joe** · **08-16-07, 09:24 PM**

I mean 50mm, or 1 notch up from 35mm, which is wide angle. This will square up the image from a curve(wide angle 35mm).

If you have DVE, either the SMPTE or the girl with the colour checker.
With those you can see some deviations, if you are using a balanced monitor.

Use the blue filter with DVE to do a colour tint balance. Be aware though that the filter is designed around CRT devices and you can have errors with projectors using them. Still you can obtain a good result with them rather than without.

The shirt could be the colour tint balance or the RGB interaction, hard to know until colour/ tint is set.

**mechman** · **08-16-07, 10:23 PM**

Smoke offers good advice, as always! It took me quite awhile to figure out the zoom thing - to get a good rectangular screen. I still screw it up sometime but mainly when I'm zooming in to show something. I think you should white balance the camera with a a projected white light onto something white in front of the screen. Look thru your camera's manual and see if you can set up a custom white balance. Don't use a sheet of white paper or a tissue to do the white balance either. Those things are usually bleached which would cause the camera to push blue in it's photos. If you had a sample of DW or something like that, that would work. The photo does look over saturated though. Your original shot looked much better. Key is don't zoom out all the way or in too much, white balance using the pj's white, iso as low as you can go (I only go to 100), and leave the shutter and aperture set at auto. If your camera could meter shots you could have it take three shots at one f stop and then one up and down from that. Ahhhhh this is probably getting too deep...

mech

**cynical2** · **08-16-07, 11:57 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Smoke offers good advice, as always! It took me quite awhile to figure out the zoom thing - to get a good rectangular screen. I still screw it up sometime but mainly when I'm zooming in to show something. I think you should white balance the camera with a a projected white light onto something white in front of the screen. Look thru your camera's manual and see if you can set up a custom white balance. Don't use a sheet of white paper or a tissue to do the white balance either. Those things are usually bleached which would cause the camera to push blue in it's photos. If you had a sample of DW or something like that, that would work. The photo does look over saturated though. Your original shot looked much better. Key is don't zoom out all the way or in too much, white balance using the pj's white, iso as low as you can go (I only go to 100), and leave the shutter and aperture set at auto. If your camera could meter shots you could have it take three shots at one f stop and then one up and down from that. Ahhhhh this is probably getting too deep...

mech

Thanks, mech.

I noticed the "F-stop" option that I could scroll through in manual mode...went from something like 2.8 all the way up to 8.0 (don't quote me on the numbers). What the heck does that mean (and what does it do to the photo)?

And when you set the white balance...I have an 8 x 10 sample of DW laminate. How exactly should I set up the white balance shot? Do I stand really close to the DW, or do I zoom in from where I am taking the screen shots from?

Yes, I am a photography idiot, too.

**mechman** · **08-17-07, 08:26 AM**

Quote:

cynical2 wrote:

Thanks, mech.

I noticed the "F-stop" option that I could scroll through in manual mode...went from something like 2.8 all the way up to 8.0 (don't quote me on the numbers). What the heck does that mean (and what does it do to the photo)?

And when you set the white balance...I have an 8 x 10 sample of DW laminate. How exactly should I set up the white balance shot? Do I stand really close to the DW, or do I zoom in from where I am taking the screen shots from?

Yes, I am a photography idiot, too.

No worries Jim! I'm still a camera idiot too!

F-stop, in a nutshell, is the setting of a lens aperture. Or more detailed, it is the ratio of the focal length of a lens or lens system to the effective diameter of its aperture. It is one of the ways to control exposure. If you remember the f-stop setting for the pic you took. You'd want to lower it one or two f-stops.

White balance - An 8X10 piece of DW would be perfect! When you set it, you should see nothing but the DW when looking through the viewfinder. I'd stand really close as opposed to zooming in.

Hope this helps.

mech

**cynical2** · **08-17-07, 08:56 AM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

No worries Jim! I'm still a camera idiot too!

F-stop, in a nutshell, is the setting of a lens aperture. Or more detailed, it is the ratio of the focal length of a lens or lens system to the effective diameter of its aperture. It is one of the ways to control exposure. If you remember the f-stop setting for the pic you took. You'd want to lower it one or two f-stops.

White balance - An 8X10 piece of DW would be perfect! When you set it, you should see nothing but the DW when looking through the viewfinder. I'd stand really close as opposed to zooming in.

Hope this helps.

mech

Thanks, mech. So...do I do a manual white balance when the room is dark for the dark shots (I'm assuming no) and then with the light turned on for the ambient shots (I'm assuming yes)?

Or do I just set the white balance with the lights on and then use that white balance setting for both dark and ambient shots?

I have no idea what the F-stop value was in the previous shots, as I didn't use that option then.

Mech, here's an interesting link...hmmm. You may want to look at it...you may learn something that you can share with people (who shall remain nameless) that could benefit from any input you may have after perusing said link.

Seriously, I find the myriad of controls on my camera a bit overkill, and I can read the manual to understand what each one does individually. But, when it comes to the right combination of all of those different parameters for a given shot, I just don't have the knowledge/experience to put it all together.

So, your (and Smoke's) comments are appreciated...anything that can help me wrap my arms around the seemingly simple task of taking pictures of a projector screen is quite helpful.

Well, I better head out the door. As I mentioned, I'll be out of town for 9 days, but should still be on the forum (assuming I have internet access at the timeshare)...

Is it wrong that my wife is loading the car while I am on HTShack? Some would answer a resounding "YES", while others understand the addiction.

**mechman** · **08-17-07, 10:23 AM**

Quote:

cynical2 wrote:

Thanks, mech. So...do I do a manual white balance when the room is dark for the dark shots (I'm assuming no) and then with the light turned on for the ambient shots (I'm assuming yes)?

Or do I just set the white balance with the lights on and then use that white balance setting for both dark and ambient shots?

I have no idea what the F-stop value was in the previous shots, as I didn't use that option then.

Mech, here's an interesting link...hmmm. You may want to look at it...you may learn something that you can share with people (who shall remain nameless) that could benefit from any input you may have after perusing said link.

Seriously, I find the myriad of controls on my camera a bit overkill, and I can read the manual to understand what each one does individually. But, when it comes to the right combination of all of those different parameters for a given shot, I just don't have the knowledge/experience to put it all together.

So, your (and Smoke's) comments are appreciated...anything that can help me wrap my arms around the seemingly simple task of taking pictures of a projector screen is quite helpful.

Well, I better head out the door. As I mentioned, I'll be out of town for 9 days, but should still be on the forum (assuming I have internet access at the timeshare)...

Is it wrong that my wife is loading the car while I am on HTShack? Some would answer a resounding "YES", while others understand the addiction.

LOL! My wife would kill me!

Page 69 tells you how to do the white balance manually.

You would use the projector, projecting a white image (I use the DVD PLUGE with White from the DVE calibration disk), hold the DW sample in the white light from the projector, and then with the camera:

1 Set to [ ] (White Set) and then
press >.
2 Aim the camera at a sheet of white paper
or a similar white object so that the frame
on the center of the screen turns white
and then press >.

It'd be better if you just looked at page 69 - the cut and paste did not work very well.

mech

**Tiddler** · **08-17-07, 01:33 PM**

Camera operation not withstanding, are you happy with the screen?

Did it meet or beat your expectations?

I guess I will have to wait 9 days for the answer, Eh!?

**cynical2** · **08-17-07, 01:56 PM**

Quote:

tiddler wrote:

Camera operation not withstanding, are you happy with the screen?

Did it meet or beat your expectations?

I guess I will have to wait 9 days for the answer, Eh!?

Heck no! You can just read post #98...I'm extremely happy with it. I just wish I could work a camera well enough to show it off the way it oughta be.

BTW, now I'm on the interstate in West Virginia, on HTShack while my wife is driving...I hope my behavior today isn't a recipe for divorce! :raped:

**mechman** · **08-17-07, 06:52 PM**

Jim,

By the way, do not use a piece of paper as the manual suggests! Use the DW! I've probably said it several times already but papaer is bleached. Causing a manual white balance to push blue.

mech

**<^..^>Smokey Joe** · **08-17-07, 08:05 PM**

Don't get hung up with white balance unless you are using ambient shots, but even then as a comparison thing maybe one shouldn't adjust settings except for exposure time.

If the screen image is in balance, there is no reason to adjust camera white balance, is there?
(although each brand of camera has slightly different ideas about colour; a chap at the uni where I work is doing a Phd on CCD varibility)

I personally would open the f stop all the way, get as much light in as possible.

The exposure time is the varible as it depends on the light level coming off the screen in the still image.

Remember most times we takes shots for basic comparison, so you want as little varibles as possible.

If you do some projector colour balancing and returned to that scene, what colour balance setting did you set in the camera to compare the next shot? Can you get back to where you were? And will it look right with the projector image different?

just some things to think about.

**mechman** · **08-17-07, 08:23 PM**

Smokester I never thought I'd find something that I'd disagree with you on. :raped: Here's a couple shots to consider:

Non balanced shot:

Balanced shot:

In order to get accurate color representation you need to be white/gray balanced. These shots were both taken at ISO 100 and auto aperture/shutter. My e-500 does an excellent job getting the image to disk with regards to exposure. Color balance on the other hand...

According to the metadata for the above shot focal length was 18mm - on a 14-45mm lens, shutter at .6s, and f3.8. I'll attempt this again while opening the aperture all the way but methinks it'll be overexposed.

Hey Jim! Take a look! I still don't have the zoom thing down yet - notice the ever so slight arc at the top and bottom!

mech

**<^..^>Smokey Joe** · **08-17-07, 09:51 PM**

You are possibly right, but my point was, can you get all back to the same colour balance next time?
Will the next scene require a different colour balance?

If you went and calibrated and ended up with different settings than before, Bulb aging effect for example. The colour balance would change I would think.

It isnt the fact that it is out, but adding another varible by doing it. Do you understand?

You could be colour balancing the image inaccuracies that you are balancing with your eyes.
Or the dominant colour frequency?

Now my Video generator has arrived, I will do some accurate shot experiments.(when I get time)
Logic says that if the whole path is correct no correction is required for a shot with no ambient light.

Then again it could possibly depend on the camera, some are better than others when pushed.

**cynical2** · **08-17-07, 10:33 PM**

Mech, smokey...thanks to you both for your further input regarding screen pics. Hopefully, I can find a good methodology for my Panny FZ-20 when I get back. I'm in southeastern Virginia (hometown of Michael Vick and Allen Iverson

) now...stopping at the in-laws for the night. We head to the Outer Banks of North Carolina tomorrow (where the Wright Brothers had the first successful flight).

Hopefully, the condos in NC have decent internet access...

**mechman** · **08-17-07, 10:41 PM**

Smokester,

I do a gray/white balance before every shoot using a WhiBal card.

All shots are taken in RAW format and then processed in Adobe Bridge using the Whibal card as my reference. You can see some videos and learn more about it here. Check out some of the tutorial videos, he even goes into Yxy and what not. We have a really good thread on this stuff here.I understand what you're getting at but if you have a neutral reference (the WhiBal card) the issue is moot. As it doesn't matter what the camera does with the color because as soon as I tell the Adobe that card is my neutral gray, it all comes out right.

Like I said, I do one before every picture session using the projectors light as the light source - that is what you're taking a picture of. Ambient light has little effect upon the picture in my tests with doing shots of ambient/no ambient and processing with ambient/no ambient reference shots.

In the real world you should take a reference shot every time your light changes. But when taking screen shots, it takes a bit of time I'd guess for the light to change.

Now back to Jim and others who don't have a WhiBal card. In the world of photography, I know of no other way to get as close as possible for an amateur without a WhiBal card (or something like it) to get accurate color balance. If you calibrate do another white balance. If it's been a week or so since you did it last, do another. Same thing applies to nature or family shots. If the sun is out you could do a white balance (most don't they leave it at auto). When the clouds arrive you should re-do it again. Anytime the light changes.

Screenies are a gray area if you ask me. And all I have to go on is my trials and what works best. I do a WhiBal shot before every review. The one above was for the first round of shots of the Da-Lite screens. I'll be taking more shots next week and before I start there'll be another reference shot taken at the start.

Good golly I'm starting to babble me thinks!

I'm gonna stop here smoke cause I believe I've rambled enough for this post! Sorry bud!

mech

**mechman** · **08-17-07, 10:46 PM**

Oooops one more bit of a ramble... bear with me!

One thing I'd like to add is that there's a probably a difference in the way a camera does a white/gray/color balance as opposed to the way I do it with the WhiBal card. I'd assume the WhiBal would be more accurate with reference to the way different manufacturers build their cameras and the type of ccd's (as smoke mentioned) they use and their accuracies.

I'm done now... I promise!! And there was much rejoicing!

mech

**mechman** · **08-17-07, 10:49 PM**

Quote:

cynical2 wrote:

Mech, smokey...thanks to you both for your further input regarding screen pics. Hopefully, I can find a good methodology for my Panny FZ-20 when I get back. I'm in southeastern Virginia (hometown of Michael Vick and Allen Iverson

) now...stopping at the in-laws for the night. We head to the Outer Banks of North Carolina tomorrow (where the Wright Brothers had the first successful flight).

Hopefully, the condos in NC have decent internet access...

Sorry for hijacking your thread!

mech

**wbassett** · **08-17-07, 11:30 PM**

Quote:

<^..^>Smokey Joe wrote:

You are possibly right, but my point was, can you get all back to the same colour balance next time?
Will the next scene require a different colour balance?

If you went and calibrated and ended up with different settings than before, Bulb aging effect for example. The colour balance would change I would think.

It isnt the fact that it is out, but adding another varible by doing it. Do you understand?

You could be colour balancing the image inaccuracies that you are balancing with your eyes.
Or the dominant colour frequency?

Now my Video generator has arrived, I will do some accurate shot experiments.(when I get time)
Logic says that if the whole path is correct no correction is required for a shot with no ambient light.

Then again it could possibly depend on the camera, some are better than others when pushed.

Smokey I think that by using the Whibal card it is keeping everything consistant. It's not really adjusting the colors or tweaking them to look better than they really are, rather making the image look like what is actually seen. The video tutorials on the Whibal site are very informative about what it's doing.

**Tiddler** · **09-09-07, 08:42 PM**

If I recall correctly you used a single coat of Behr Matte Polyurethane with one 2oz. bottle of Folkart Pearlizing Medium mixed in it. Is that correct?

Do you have any hot spotting problems?

Do you find there is a restricted viewing cone?

How would you say the top coated screen surface compared to the flat UPW surface?

Based on your experiences with the base gray and pearl clear coat would you recommend the addition of the Pearl Clear Coat or should people just go with the flat gray with maybe a poly top coat?

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