'Pigment' Free Gray- Initial Development and Testing

**mechman** · **10-23-07, 06:12 PM**

As Bill stated above:

Quote:

The main ingredient was discontinued. Mech went looking for some and couldn't find the one gallon buckets and when the website was checked, that part number was nowhere to be found. I've been talking to the company for two days now, at first they weren't sure if it was discontinued or not, but today they called back and said it was. So that's bad news.

We haven't yet found anything readily available to us yet. I could've bought large quantities of the old stuff but I don't need that much of it laying around! I already have a garage that's starting to look like a paint store!

We're all still looking in our spare time and when we find something suitable, we'll let you know.

Now that I'm back from my hunting trip I'll devote a little more time to the search.

The key to this is availability. There's three of us in separate areas looking. So if all three find it, it will hopefully be available to all. And then we can do some testing of it...

I'll do some spectro readings and take a bunch of pictures.

Maybe I should just buy up what's around....

mech

**E-A-G-L-E-S** · **10-23-07, 09:00 PM**

Well, If you'd like I would be more than willing to look locally as well. If so, just let me know what to look for.

**Chance** · **10-25-07, 06:14 AM**

Me as well, my screen progress is currently on suspend.
And I am already growing tired of my kilz2 primer screen.
Let me know if you'd like to spare some of your current mix for some $.

**mechman** · **10-25-07, 03:28 PM**

It will be done when it's done. I've got some measurements that I'm getting caught up on, Bill's had a personal tragedy to deal with as well as he's traveling for work, and Jim is currently getting up to speed with where we're at and where we want to be. Additionally we're working on this on the side.

Paint your screen either Gray Screen or Winter Mountain for now if you cannot wait. You can always paint it again later.

It may be some time before this thing is worked out. We're not gonna throw something at you that pushes green as is way out of the neutral threshold. That would be irresponsible.

mech

**wbassett** · **10-25-07, 11:10 PM**

I'm going to make another call to the company, I am finding the base everywhere I go around here. Either there is a ton of it in stock still, or it could be a regional thing, or as Jim found out it could depend on state codes and zonings.

**E-A-G-L-E-S** · **10-26-07, 01:03 PM**

wbassett....that's why I offered my help. If it is in supply all around me(I have tons of H.D.'s, S.W.'s, T.V.'s, etc.) that could help you guys, no?
So I will throw it out again as it seems my first offer was taken as a slight or something.
If you wish to tell me what base to look for I'd be more than willing to look.

I appreciate all the work you guys are doing and the Winter Mist has been great, but if I can help why not.

**mechman** · **10-26-07, 01:22 PM**

Quote:

E-A-G-L-E-S wrote:

So I will throw it out again as it seems my first offer was taken as a slight or something.

Matt,

It wasn't taken as a slight at all. I am a bit short at times. I apologize for that and feel free to call me out on it anytime in the future!

I was just trying to relay what was going on as short and to the point as I could.

As for looking for it in your neck of the woods, that'd be up to Bill. Personally I'd have no problem with it at all.

mech

**texfrazer** · **11-04-07, 01:17 AM**

Hey all,

As I am ramping up having my projection wall repainted due to a 3 hour water leak, I am extremely interested in this possibility. As it stands, I was looking at Winter Mist/Mountian, but this looks awesome!

I completely understand the desire for all of the testing, etc. before giving product names, but I am more than willing to do a little leg work searching for the base. I live in Atlanta, if that helps.

Thanks for all the work you guys do - I am learning a ton!

**mechman** · **11-30-07, 06:10 PM**

Just an update. We're getting real close on this! There may be more than one option as well as many different mixes. It will be easy though. I'll be doing some testing and panel painting on Monday!

And by the way, out of all the tested DIY methods so far this one appears to be the one that may replace my trusty sheet of Fashion Grey laminate! It appears that good!

mech

**wbassett** · **12-01-07, 02:01 AM**

yeah told ya mech! I'll probably be replacing my screen too.

**tradewinds** · **12-04-07, 11:58 PM**

I may be wrong, but I assume this can be rolled on a sheet of DW laminate? That is what I have now still rolled up in the box, or should I be returning this and using something else for a 101" screen?

**tradewinds** · **12-05-07, 12:00 AM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

so far this one appears to be the one that may replace my trusty sheet of Fashion Grey laminate! It appears that good!

mech

mech, when you take the next round of pics, can you do one with the FG laminate also? Just curious. Thanks.

**mechman** · **12-05-07, 12:01 PM**

A lot of test panels have been rolled. I do not like spraying in the garage in the winter. I don't think my dog would appreciate it.

When I do take the screen shots there will be comparisons of a lot of things. The problem though right now is there are so many different ratios that we have to check. And then what to mix it with... I think we're getting close! If we could've devoted 7 days a week, 24/7 on this, it would have been done a long time ago. But it looks like the stuff I'm doing will be delayed further as the third snowstorm of the year is bearing down on my area for the weekend.

My back hurts already!

*I'm hoping to have some screen shots soon!* I'd love to say by such and such date but I can't right now.

I'd see a problem painting over a laminate.

mech

**wbassett** · **12-05-07, 12:12 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

...snip
I'd see no problem painting over a laminate. ...snip

Other than the waste of a great screen and a very expensive substrate just for painting.

**mechman** · **12-05-07, 12:15 PM**

Quote:

wbassett wrote:

Other than the waste of a great screen and a very expensive substrate just for painting.

Man my English is going down the tubes lately! And yes! It would be a waste of arguably the best white DIY screen out there!

mech

**tradewinds** · **12-05-07, 12:20 PM**

What's the best substrate to roll on for that size screen?

**wbassett** · **12-05-07, 12:59 PM**

You can do a 100" diagonal screen with many substrates. The problem comes into play for larger screens that are over 100" because that exceeds the 4'x8' size of the typical sheet. You can eek out 100" because it is actually 49" wide, but that will be using the entire width of the sheet as the screen height, so you won't be able to attach it to a border. What most people do in that case is mount the substrate to the wall and then build the frame around it.

If that is the plan, it is usually easier and cheaper to just paint the wall itself. If the wall is uneven, that can be remedied too. Here is one way to do it.

Other options would be to use painter's canvas or BOC and paint that. Right now I am working on a tutorial to make a quick and easy BOC screen that can be used as is or painted.

Unless you want to back light your screen like some people have done, or make a 'floating' screen... or if there is a reason you can't use the wall (like you rent and can't paint the wall itself), using a wall as your screen surface is probably the easiest and most economical way to go.

If you go with a substrate, 1/8" hard board will work, but it is a bit flimsy and bows unless it is attached to a frame or directly to the wall. Laminate will too though. 1/4" is much stiffer, but the weight is also much more. Some people have used MDF and with that the weight really starts to skyrocket.

An alternative if you are going to be painting would be a sheet of sanitary panel like Parkland Polywall. Many have used that as either a white screen as is, or as a substrate to paint. The key is to make sure it is a smooth surface. You don't specifically need Parkland if you are going to paint. Most home renovation centers carry this between $10-$15 a sheet. Again, make sure it is smooth, some are textured, but the back side is usually smooth. Prime it since it is a plastic material. That will make sure your screen paint has something to bite into and adhere well and will help prevent peeling down the road.

Here is another relatively inexpensive and light weight option... paneling. I have used smooth surface paneling scraps as test screen panels and they have worked out well. Most paneling has grooves though to simulate the slotted tongue and groove look, but the backside is always smooth. I have to give a disclaimer though, I've never used paneling for a full size screen but I don't see why it wouldn't work and be just as light weight as any other plastic substrate.

Pretty much if you are going to paint, anything will work if it is smooth and prepped right. The only restriction is the screen size. If you only need a 100" diagonal or less screen, there are more viable options than you could ever use... if you want a larger screen, finding substrates over 4' wide can be difficult or even impossible without special ordering. Depending on where you live I should say.

DW really is an outstanding screen though. Any particular reasons why you may be changing your mind from using it?

**Sonnie** · **12-06-07, 01:58 AM**

I was just thinking... my screen is 97" diagonal, which means it should be 48" high x 85" wide. I can paint something and mount it inside my border trim, thereby eliminating part of that border trim depth on the inside edge.

So yeah... what would be the best material to paint... 1/2" MDF maybe? I could paint it and then hang it.

**Sonnie** · **12-06-07, 01:59 AM**

And when is this stuff going to be ready?

**wbassett** · **12-06-07, 02:39 AM**

Very soon.

We ran into some trouble with availability of the main ingredient and had to find a suitable replacement. Jim found one and the spectro tests and spectral curve is one of the flattest we have seen in anything so far. Then we had to find a white base that was also neutral or closer than other whites out there and wouldn't skew it too far out. Now we're doing some more test panels and going into the final stage. We just did not think it was responsible to jump the gun and present something and then have to tell people they couldn't get the most important ingredient. (It was discontinued, so it was worse than being a regional item) Or worse, present something and then after some in depth testing discover there is a major push or problem with it and have to tell people not to use it or make a change right after presenting it.

So things started out on a rush of excitement, but then we stepped back and had to make sure this was something that people could get and make, as well as verify the specs and performance. All in all it may seem like a long time, but this was introduced at the beginning of October and now we're almost done. That's a much faster pace than it would take a commercial endeavor as well as most other DIY applications, many which still undergo major changes even shortly after being introduced.

Anyone that knows me knows I am pretty solid on things. The only change in the laminate screen world is that we took some new readings and found a better option than Fashion Grey, not that FG is bad, we just found something that has a better color balance and we formally have said that. It took a year though to dethrone FG and anyone that has used it for a screen will still have a great screen.

The same philosophy goes with the OTS neutral and near neutral grays. Since they were introduced, the list of identified and tested neutrals has not wavered or gone through monthly mix adjustments. They were solid last year and are solid this year, the only difference is a few more were added to the list from different manufacturers.

PFG will be the same. When it is unveiled in the next few weeks it will be a finished DIY application and I do not foresee any changes being made to it a month later or even a year later. People wanted something more advanced so that was researched. After this, we plan on working on optical coatings (actually that work is already underway) as well as making frames and borders easier and more professional looking.

Like I said, 2007 has been a great year and 2008 will be better and more interesting!

**wbassett** · **12-06-07, 02:46 AM**

Quote:

Sonnie wrote:

I was just thinking... my screen is 97" diagonal, which means it should be 48" high x 85" wide. I can paint something and mount it inside my border trim, thereby eliminating part of that border trim depth on the inside edge.

So yeah... what would be the best material to paint... 1/2" MDF maybe? I could paint it and then hang it.

MDF is wickedly heavy. It will work but to me is heavier than it needs to be, especially the 1" thick stuff. For a 97" screen there are many options, but from talking to you your biggest hurdle is getting that border off that was put on with Liquid Nails! I have done some wood work and saw the wood break before the Liquid Nails gave way. That's some pretty strong and permanant stuff.

The screen I will be making as a tutorial for the PFG thread will be a cloth screen that is painted. I will be using BOC, but anything that can be painted can be used, canvas, MDF, 1/4" hardboard, sanitary panels, even paneling could work. Over 100" diagonal though is when the options start to get slim and fast. Sonnie when you're ready to change screens I don't think you'll have a problem getting a substrate in that size.

**tradewinds** · **12-06-07, 09:53 AM**

Quote:

wbassett wrote:

DW really is an outstanding screen though. Any particular reasons why you may be changing your mind from using it?

The truth is I have not tried the DW as it is still in the box. My PJ is a Infocus 7210 and since it is bright without an iris I was hoping to get better PQ with some ambient light on while watching sports. My HT room has dark walls, ceiling and floor.

**mechman** · **12-13-07, 03:24 PM**

Here's the reflectance curve of our tested product:

I (not wbassett or cynical2 - they're much more realistic than I

) was really hoping to have something done or closer to being done by Christmas. Unfortunately just about everything went wrong around the house this last week and I've just about gotten my head back above the water!

Tradewinds - you may want to keep that DW around as from what little (not nearly enough testing yet) I've seen of a new topcoat we're trying out, it will need a bright white screen as a base.

Sonnie and others waiting... sorry for this prolonged delay but we want to cover all the bases on this and not release something on wild claims with no proof or science behind it. I think we're shooting for early to mid January now - barring any unforeseen events such as I experienced in the last week.

Your patience is appreciated!

mech

**Sonnie** · **12-13-07, 05:27 PM**

**tradewinds** · **12-13-07, 05:33 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Tradewinds - you may want to keep that DW around as from what little (not nearly enough testing yet) I've seen of a new topcoat we're trying out, it will need a bright white screen as a base.

Thanks for the heads up and continued hard work to get this out Mech. I'll mount the DW if my HT room is completed sooner than the PF will be read and will take it back down and try but the final PFG when the final version is out. Happy Holidays if you don't get much time to post in the next few weeks.

BTW - If the PFG has a 0.4 gain and it is a grey paint, how would a white base help if it will be covered up? I could understand if it was translucent (not sure if that is the right word, I mean like transparent).

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