'Pigment' Free Gray- Initial Development and Testing

[cynical2]

tradewinds wrote:

Thanks for the heads up and continued hard work to get this out Mech. I'll mount the DW if my HT room is completed sooner than the PF will be read and will take it back down and try but the final PFG when the final version is out. Happy Holidays if you don't get much time to post in the next few weeks.

BTW - If the PFG has a 0.4 gain and it is a grey paint, how would a white base help if it will be covered up? I could understand if it was translucent (not sure if that is the right word, I mean like transparent).

TW, I'm not sure where you got that it has a gain of 0.4?? If it's from the spectral reflectance curve, that's not gain on the vertical axis.

Also, there is always a bit of light passing through a couple of layers of paint...so it's best to have a properly prepared substrate (e.g. white).

[tradewinds]

got it. My mistake. Thanks for clarifying.

[mechman]

tradewinds wrote:

BTW - If the PFG has a 0.4 gain and it is a grey paint, how would a white base help if it will be covered up? I could understand if it was translucent (not sure if that is the right word, I mean like transparent).

I have yet to do gain measurements of anything yet but if I was to hazard a guess, and a guess it would be, I'd say it would be around 1 or greater. But that is a guess!

The topcoat that we're experimenting with is a topcoat. The one currently on the table is very dark and that's at a 2oz pfg ingredient to 32oz poly. It is translucent. But that's gonna be much further down the line.

mech

[mechman]

Yes that is a spectral reflectance curve. Although there's not much curve to it! What does that mean? It means that this particular ingredient reflects all the colors equally. Why is that important? In order to view the movie or content the way the director intended your screen should be reflecting colors back the way the projector emits them. There have been numerous paint mixes and topcoats that have utilized mica. Mica which is purchased at craft stores and is generally meant for crafts. We've shown here at the Shack that this mica is not necessarily a good thing. It creates quite the color shift. We did an experiment utilizing a pearlizing medium topcoat over True Value Winter Mountain. This was one coat at 2oz pearlizing medium to 32oz poly. Here are the curves for that.

Winter Mountain alone:



Winter Mountain with Pearlizing medium topcoat (one coat of the topcoat - usually it's recommended to do two! :raped



mech

[wbassett]

tradewinds wrote:

BTW - If the PFG has a 0.4 gain and it is a grey paint, how would a white base help if it will be covered up? I could understand if it was translucent (not sure if that is the right word, I mean like transparent).

Actually there were no gain tests done yet, so we can't say what the gain is. I will step out on a limb and say it's much higher than .4. The aluminum (at least in my test panels) makes it a much brighter screen than you'd expect from something this dark. It is definitely at least a full shade darker than Gray Screen, but just as bright, possibly brighter. I will be completely fair though and say this isn't a magical super high gain screen. I say that because the viewing cone still looks to be very wide, and as we know, viewing cone is inversely proportional to gain, as gain increases viewing cone decreases. My best 'guess' (and until we get actual readings, that's all this is) would be it's at least a 1.0 gain or around there.

[wbassett]

We have to get a tree this weekend, and then I have to track down some cross brace tabs, I am hoping to get at least the base coat sprayed this weekend (or Monday, I took a day off).

[jr1414]

Some pretty impressive curves there!!! Any recent progress? I know it's difficult with the holidays, but I'm really impressed by what I see so far!

[mechman]

jr1414 wrote:

Some pretty impressive curves there!!! Any recent progress? I know it's difficult with the holidays, but I'm really impressed by what I see so far!

Yes. We've learned what not to use! Getting closer to learning what to use.

We've (should really be 'I've' as I think Bill already knew this and Jim more than likely did as well) also learned that you cannot take a non neutral paint and try and mix it up to remedy a 'push'. For example, you mix a couple things together and get a consistent drop in the reds, greens, and blues. You find a base to compensate for this and it does nothing but make things worse. We've experimented with this twice now and it is a no go! Bill has explained here what is required in order to get a neutral gray. It's a very tall order and one in which I think we've proven to ourselves over the last week or so that even the knowledgeable need to be humbled sometimes. And Lord knows I've been humbled these last few days!

We are still plugging away, we are right on track, and I hope we'll have something soon. The main thing we're waiting on now it seems is for me to have some time to putz with it.

mech

[cynical2]

Yep, we knew that it doesn't make sense to mix a non-neutral with a neutral to get a neutral...

Unfortunately...to tie this post to the new thread mech created together...this was predicated by another result that didn't (and still doesn't) make sense to us. We mixed two neutrals and got a non-neutral.

So, we need a bit more experimentation to settle on the best base possible....

And, yes, I fully take the blame for the failed non-neutral + neutral experiment...

One really positive thing that came out of it is that Lowe's mixed a non-Valspar color for that experiment, based on their computer database, and nailed it. That gives us confidence moving forward that we can go to them and have them create almost any color, and it will be accurate (even if it's not their own color). Obviously, it's only one data point...but it's a start. Over time, we'll come to understand the robustness/accuracy of their system more and more.

[jr1414]

Thanks for the update. Looking forward to improving results as you go forward!!!

[muzz]

Geeeeeeezzzzzz, I haven't been around in months, and when I do finally come back, I see the same guys trying to create the "Optimal" screen without results...

This is becoming an epidemic!!

You guys are nuttin' but a bunch of slackers I tell ya!!

Keep up the good work guys, I'm waiting to see what I should paint next, as I'd like to upgrade my BM-"Pebble Beach"/Behr Poly topcoat soon!!

Happy Holidays!!

Gary

[wbassett]

muzz we're almost ready to present it in its entirety.

There were a couple of road bumps in the developing stage but we pretty much have all that worked out. First the main component ended up a discontinued product and even so, it wasn't readily available everywhere. We found a replacement and then had to test it with a few bases. Some were a bust, but there are a few that are looking very good.

One thing that will make this very different than other methods is once presented (besides the performance), it will be a completed DIY application and won't require being revised over and over again, so that's the reason it seems like it's taking so long, but trust us... we are busy working on things behind the scenes.

Mech has also started working on a new optical coating too!

[muzz]

Excellent news Bill !

I'm looking forward to updating my Grey + Poly solution.
I don't really like Greyish Whites, and although some things look really white(things that are large and white), I know that they really aren't.

It's done it's job, I now want something a bit better.

Happy Holidays.

Gary

[mechman]

Well it hasn't been fun! But just to keep things in the open, I'll try and give a synopsis.

As we're all aware, it started out with Bill finding that wonderful stuff that made Sherwin Williams Gray Screen look silly. Better blacks, better whites, etc. Unfortunately that particular 'mix' is available for only two of us. And it's been awhile since I checked so it may now only be available to Bill. The other problem is it has been discontinued. So we set off trying to find something else to use. All the while keeping the original in the back of our heads to use as a 'Home Theater Shack exclusive' if need be. We have enough available to mix and send out, at cost, several hundred screens.

We did end up finding an alternative. Unfortunately it is in my hands and I may be moving a bit slow with it, I guess. I first painted up a small sample to get a spectro reading of it and that's where the spectral reflectance curve came from.



Don't know if this means anything to you or not but it means a lot to us! So we found a 'dead on' neutral pfg. Now what to mix it with? Well the logical answer would be to mix it with a neutral right? Well it didn't work as well as we thought it would. We also tried SW Luminous White and a couple paint matches that we thought would work. The list?

Sherwin Williams Luminous White
Sherwin Williams Soothing White
True Value Winter Mist
True Value Violet Disguise
True Value Decorative Motif
Behr Clear Matte Poly

The numbers? They're here.

If you look at them, the best outcomes seem to have come from Luminous White and Winter Mist. Luminous White isn't a problem as I bought a gallon of that. Winter Mist on the other hand is. I bought a quart of it for testing way back when and I am out. And it's a real pain in the posterior to get to my True Value store so I've been looking for a good substitute that I can get at Lowes. Lowes can match just about anything but Winter Mist in my neck of the woods. Actually from what I've found out, they can match it. They just didn't know it!

SW Soothing White
227 227 229
90.3 0.29 -0.83
0.312 0.327 76.9

TV Winter Mist
220 220 220
87.8 -0.06 0.03
0.313 0.329 71.7

PFG - Winter Mist 5:1
188 190 188
76.8 -0.96 1
0.313 0.332 51.2

PFG - Soothing White 5:1
186 187 182
75.6 -1.11 2.08
0.315 0.335 49.2

PFG - Luminous White 5:1
197 199 195
80 -1.25 1.89
0.315 0.334 56.7

Luminous White
247 247 242
97.1 -1.05 2.3
0.315 0.334 92.7

Mech's PFG material
182 181 180
73.7 0.17 0.63
0.314 0.33 46.3

PFG - Luminous White 6:1
213 215 214
85.9 -1.21 0.31
0.312 0.331 67.8

Pearl Silver (NOT RECOMMENDED!)
190 191 188
77.1 -0.75 1.49
0.315 0.333 51.7

Pearl Silver w/PFG topcoat
136 136 133
56.6 -0.58 1.61
0.316 0.334 24.5

Violet Disguise EasyRGB
239 236 240
93.8 1.76 -1.62
0.312 0.325 84.8

Violet Disguise from Lowes
238 235 240
93.5 1.56 -1.8
0.312 0.325 84.1

PFG - Violet Disguise 4:1
183 189 194
76.4 -1.07 -3.34
0.304 0.322 50.5

PFG - Violet Disguise 3:1
178 184 190
74.6 -1.11 -3.43
0.304 0.322 47.6

PFG - Luminous White 4:1
189 192 193
77.6 -1.13 0.99
0.309 0.328 52.5

Decorative Motif EasyRGB
242 239 239
94.7 1.02 0.31
0.315 0.329 86.9

PFG - Decorative Motif 4:1
183 189 195
76.4 -1.17 -3.44
0.304 0.322 50.5

The Pearl Silver and Pearl Silver with PFG Topcoat were some very interesting numbers don't ya think?!?

So that's basically where we're at now. Waiting for me to get off my behind and get more stuff mixed up, sampled and painted on panels. And then there's the whole photo's spectro readings of the screen itself that Smokey has advised me about.

Sorry folks but this isn't going to be something we just throw out there without trying it out. I hate making mistakes. I do make a lot of them, and I hate it!

mech

[Sonnie]

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

[mechman]

Sonnie wrote:

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

Watch it mister!!!



mech

[muzz]

NFL Playoffs are coming!!

The Patriots won't be playing next week, as they have a bye....

Hopefully this will be ready B4 they hit the field, as I have folks coming over to watch the game in HD Glory at a buck 15!!

[mechman]

muzz wrote:

NFL Playoffs are coming!!

The Patriots won't be playing next week, as they have a bye....

Hopefully this will be ready B4 they hit the field, as I have folks coming over to watch the game in HD Glory at a buck 15!!

Well I finished the readings of all the samples Bill sent. And I also bought another gallon of SW Spatial White. My Lowes cannot match Winter Mist for some reason or another. They're checking on why it's in some store databases but not theirs. A quick call to Bill got me a gallon of Spatial White though. I looked at Pebble Beach but it was too dark. We want something lighter. Spatial White is 224 224 223. My plans are to get two 4:1 and two 3:1 panels done by tomorrow and get all my readings and photos by Tuesday. As for when you'll get a quart, . If it all tests out good, hopefully I can get some out by the weekend.

FYI folks, muzz agreed to be a 'beta' tester for us last Friday night in the chat room. Friday Night Chat has it's privileges! We may need another.... it'll have to wait until Friday though!

mech

[Harpmaker]

Are you adding white paint to the PFG material to tone down the metallic sheen of the PFG, even out the color, or what?

[wbassett]

The Aluminum base by itself (at least what I have) isn't suitable for a screen by itself. Applied it looks like brushed Aluminum and is way too shiny for a screen. When I added it to white, I got gray, but not a typical gray like a paint made with color pigments, hence the temporary name 'Pigment Free Gray'... And yes I understand anything added to a base to change the color is a pigment, but my point was that this isn't an ordinary gray by any means. First Aluminum is a non-interference material, meaning it doesn't color shift like mica does (that's the nature of mica and pearls). Second it brings out the shadow details, blacks and still remains a very bright screen without hot spotting, at least I haven't seen any with my 1700 lumen projector. What I have is a gray that's around an N6.5 to N7 in shade but performs like an N9 screen as far as brightness and vivid colors. Mech's base is coming out a bit lighter in shade, but we're doing some more testing on that source.

Mech also did some of his now infamous microscope photos and we all can attest that this is the most uniform looking metalic screen we've seen of all known DIY methods. That's not bragging or hype, soon we'll post all the testing and data in a finalized thread for everyone to see and review.

We know this seems slow, but we're making sure this works right out of the gate and doesn't need constant modifications. As I mentioned, once this is done and presented, it will be a finished screen. I'm a big fan of consistancy and ease. Anyone that's followed my threads over the past year and a half knows that once something is researched and presented it's solid and doesn't change. The OTS grays are one example... the only changes have been that we've expanded the list of available Off The Shelf Neutrals. Laminates... solid as granite. We've found a better replacement for Fashion Grey but FG is still an excellent screen, just ask Mech. Other than that, no changes.

So what I am saying is this may seem slow to some, painful to others, but we're almost done and like I said, when it's done it's done and trust us, it will be worth the wait of a couple more weeks.

That said, we're not stopping there. Mech has already started work on an optical top coating that if you can believe it, doesn't appear to shift the color of the base screen. It's also metalic based but we still have to test it. Our theory is this will be a more advance method that should increase performance even more, but it still needs testing. One thing at a time... when you rush you skip steps and then have to go back and correct things and we're trying to avoid that.

Anything worth doing is worth doing right... and if it takes some extra time, we're not going to take short cuts just to speed things up and dump another DIY method on everyone and then change it after people already started using it. That tends to get people upset.

[cynical2]

The other comment that I think is worth adding is that some people may say, "Experimenting is what DIY is all about...just release the info telling everyone the current status, ingredients used, etc. Then, we can all go off and experiment with the formulation."

While in theory it would be nice to do that, and it would surely make some people happy, it would also open the floodgates for people claiming that they tried it and it "doesn't work". IMHO, this will be an important step in the progress of DIY screen performance, and it just isn't worth jeopardizing the credibility of the solution by jumping the gun.

Mankind has done without this solution for almost 2 million years, and it's worth it to wait a few more weeks to make sure that a robust solution is released. There have been challenges along the way, but I can attest to the fact that Bill and Mech have worked their tails off on this for months...and they're doing everything they can to get it out as soon as humanly possible...but making sure they do things right.

[Harpmaker]

Thanks for the detailed reply!

Don't worry about the slightly inaccurate name, as you just proved, it's easily explained.

Take all the time you need to get a stable, available formula; just don't take more than the time you need.

To modify your most excellent tagline "Make everything as fast as possible, but no faster."

I think you are barking up the right tree with PFG, and it has the potential to become THE DIY screen paint for some time to come.

Carry on McDuff!

[wbassett]

I'm not worried about the temporary name

Someone did point it out and kinda made a small issue out of it. I was explaining so nobody else would take it wrong.

[mechman]

For those of you still following this thread, I just finished a boatload of testing and screen shots. The testing (screen readings) is posted in the Data and Testing Definitions and Intro thread.

The screen shots will be posted starting tomorrow.

mech

[wbassett]

And not to mention we're this close "" to a final presentation. Just one more round of things to check out and then all this waiting will be over! Great way to start 2008