'Pigment' Free Gray- Initial Development and Testing

[cynical2]

mechman wrote:

Review viewing cone in the Gain and other Interesting Topics thread and then check back here on Sunday or so!

I apologize but I am a bit busy for the next day or two...

mech

[mechman]

cynical2 wrote:

nag!

mech

[muzz]

I won't be off axis at all, unless I am on my other computer, and if I am over there, then I am not really paying attention that much to the quality, or the programming...and that is not a very often scenario.

My Leather sofa is almost as wide as the screen, directly in front of it, so 3:1 WOULD work here.

I think I've only added a couple of chairs once or twice since I set this up...

I probably wont use it anyway, considering that there IS a SLIGHT chance that someone would want to watch from a chair over there.

[mechman]

I'll be adding more to these threads over the next week or so. Spectral reflectance curves, magnifications, some zoomed in cropped images to highlight certain areas.

When will this be disclosed? I'm not 100% certain. Soon I think. Here's the dilemma we're facing. We've come up with a rollable DIY screen paint which, in our minds, is better than anything out there right now for ambient lighting. The only way to get one of the ingredients is to order a gallon. Of which you would use only 8oz for a 4:1 LW mix to add to a quart of Luminous White. Kind of excessive don't you think? Not to mention my Sherwin Williams store does not stock Luminous White by the quart so you'd need a gallon of that as well.

So what we're mulling over is selling it pre-mixed at cost to HTS members only. And maybe members with 5 posts only! It would probably end up costing somewhere in the neighborhood of $15 plus shipping. It would cost in excess of $45 to get all the materials alone.

I think at this point in time we're waiting for the beta testers to try it out and report back.

mech

[muzz]

Yep- Look at the muddy whites of the FG in comparsion to the 4:1 mix........

Thats the problem I have with Grey!!

[cynical2]

mech, I know there's a bazillion combinations that can be tried...but I wonder if you tried putting DW next to the dice? I remember when you tested DW vs FG the whites also made the FG whites look dirty. You made a comment about how you hated testing a screen with good whites against the FG, 'cause the whites look so much better.

My expectation is that the whites of PFG fall somewhere in between DW and FG, with blacks equivalent to or slightly better than FG and much, much better than DW. But, I was wondering if you actually pulled out the DW to see if that's the case.

The "I'm not an idiot" disclaimer: To be clear, I fully understand that we normally do screen comparisons against references of similar shade...and I agree that's the most appropriate approach. However, PFG has much better whites than any other screen we've seen that is this dark, so it just got me thinking about exactly how white the whites are compared to known screens with excellent whites. PFG has such a wide spectrum of color that it can reproduce, it's almost like you need to think of it in a different way (for example, the whites are as good as a simple N9 "grey paint" screen, and the blacks are as a good as good as a simple N7 "grey paint" screen.) I'm just thinking aloud...not sure what the actual range would be. I'm sure there's no way that the whites would be as good as DW, since it is lighter than N9, plus has measurable gain.

[muzz]

I agree Jim, that was my thought as well.

It's pretty clear to me that the PFG produces whites closer to what a white screen would, but with colors closer to what a grey screen would.

I'd like to see PFG 4:1 vs DW just to get a closer feel for the difference.

Forget the usual thinking, this is a whole new territory!!

Good Job Guys!!

G

[mechman]

cynical2 wrote:

mech, I know there's a bazillion combinations that can be tried...but I wonder if you tried putting DW next to the dice? I remember when you tested DW vs FG the whites also made the FG whites look dirty. You made a comment about how you hated testing a screen with good whites against the FG, 'cause the whites look so much better.

My expectation is that the whites of PFG fall somewhere in between DW and FG, with blacks equivalent to or slightly better than FG and much, much better than DW. But, I was wondering if you actually pulled out the DW to see if that's the case.

The "I'm not an idiot" disclaimer: To be clear, I fully understand that we normally do screen comparisons against references of similar shade...and I agree that's the most appropriate approach. However, PFG has much better whites than any other screen we've seen that is this dark, so it just got me thinking about exactly how white the whites are compared to known screens with excellent whites. PFG has such a wide spectrum of color that it can reproduce, it's almost like you need to think of it in a different way (for example, the whites are as good as a simple N9 "grey paint" screen, and the blacks are as a good as good as a simple N7 "grey paint" screen.) I'm just thinking aloud...not sure what the actual range would be. I'm sure there's no way that the whites would be as good as DW, since it is lighter than N9, plus has measurable gain.

They are not as good as DW. I will add more to this later as well after I wake up. I have to work a midnight shift tonight. But thanks for pointing that out to me! I had to edit my comment to the best diy screen paint for ambient lighting.

[Harpmaker]

It sounds like PFG mixes for bat caves is another area that needs testing, but it isn't the main thrust behind the initial mixes.

[mechman]

Harpmaker wrote:

It sounds like PFG mixes for bat caves is another area that needs testing, but it isn't the main thrust behind the initial mixes.

I think it would be pretty much impossible to come up with a grayish screen that would have better whites than DW. But I am always open to ideas! And there will be new ideas arriving at my doorstep this week as well as yours!

mech

[Harpmaker]

mechman wrote:

I think it would be pretty much impossible to come up with a grayish screen that would have better whites than DW. But I am always open to ideas!

Not better whites, just matching what DW gives. It might be possible to create a PFG mix that would do this while giving some ambient light tolerance.

And there will be new ideas arriving at my doorstep this week as well as yours!

mech

Looking forward to it!

H.

[mechman]

I'll get some pics of comparing Silver Fire, Poker, and DW up. I was just checking out the difference between poker and dice. In my setup, the LW/dice 4:1 has better blacks than LW/poker 4:1. I had the Silver Fire panel up there as well. SF always makes me wonder what folks are thinking trying to mix their own gray! Out of the three primary colors that is. It's ridiculous!! Anyways as you're probably aware, my SF panel pushes a purply blue rather hard. And I hate to say it but the Poker mix appears similar to it. Now what do you think Dice would look like when compared to something that pushes that hard of blue? When comparing whites?

It's all relative. We're looking for a gray ambient light type screen paint that's easy to mix (or acquire) and easy to apply (no need for a Wagner spray gun). I rolled all my sample panels (I recommend a 1/4" nap roller - not the foam ones). I think we've identified a good one!

For folks who do not have ambient light issues, go get a sheet of Designer White Laminate. I have yet to see anything out perform it.

A lot of what we're basing this all on is the numbers. And all of the DIY mixes we've seen, outside of benven's (where o' where art though Ben?), have been showing color shifting. We've had three separate Silver Fire samples, all with very different pushes and then we have a S-I-L-V-E-R panel (which was probably the best spray job out of all I've seen at AVS ) which pushes red.

I think we're in the home stretch on this one! And then there's topcoats!

mech

[mechman]

Harpmaker wrote:

Not better whites, just matching what DW gives. It might be possible to create a PFG mix that would do this while giving some ambient light tolerance.

Don't get your hopes up on dice to do this! But we'll see what the UPS driver brings this week!!

mech

I couldn't wait for the formula to be released, so I Googled "Aluminum Paint" and ordered some. I'm betting its not the right stuff, but if it shows me "In Person" that it works I will wait for the real formula to be revealed.

GOOD WORK!!!!!

[jr1414]

I too, am growing impatient. Not that I don't appreciate the amount of time and effort and knowledge, just anxious to see what follows from your results. What would one need to do to be a beta tester???? Really curious what this might be able to do in my room with some ambient light!!!

[mechman]

Well we apologize for the delay! But as stated previously, we want to make absolutely sure that this is for real. The beta testers either have or should have shortly, their 'ingredient'. I'm hoping they have time when it arrives to get it done quickly!

I know that Harpmaker is spraying. I'm not sure about muzz. muzz may or may not have his already, harp's should get there Friday.

I know that Bill is frantically putting together the 'release' thread. At least he's asking for more measurements from me a lot! lol! Watch for a new thread from muzz or harp when they're done! Me? Unless something better comes along (doubtful), I'll be spraying a new screen come spring!

While we're at it, I know that rfisher would prefer to experiment with this. What about you James? Would you prefer to buy a pre-mixed version at cost from one of us?

mech

[muzz]

Well, unfortunately I was sent an email that told me it was SHIPPED on Friday..., well I asked for a tracking # over the weekend, and just got the tracking # this afternoon B4 a meeting...

UPS didn't get it until 1/7 @ 6:18 PM !!

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHH

Man, I hate that garbarge.. don't LIE to me!!!

My scheduled delivery date is Monday the 14th....

I could have walked there and picked it up in person quicker!

Gonna try and run out for a few panels B4 the weekend is out..

I'll be stirring and rolling here.

[Harpmaker]

Believe me folks, I'm as anxious to see PFG in the flesh as the rest of you! I will get to making the test panels literally as soon as possible after receiving my shipment of Dice.

My first test mix will be Winter Mist/Dice 5:1 since I already have the paint.

I'll make a test panel with SW Luminous White/Dice 4:1 as soon as I get some LW.

My screen photos will be ugly (taken in my shop, not my home theatre), but they will hopefully convey the results. BTW, my shop is the total opposite of a bat cave; white walls and ceiling with a natural cement floor. No windows, but 960 watts of fluorescent lighting in a 20x24 foot room. I almost have to wear sunglasses to work in it.

H.

[jr1414]

The pre-mixed at cost would b the way for me. I've got a Graco Airless Spray gun, so I'd be spraying as well.

mechman wrote:

Well we apologize for the delay! But as stated previously, we want to make absolutely sure that this is for real. The beta testers either have or should have shortly, their 'ingredient'. I'm hoping they have time when it arrives to get it done quickly!

I know that Harpmaker is spraying. I'm not sure about muzz. muzz may or may not have his already, harp's should get there Friday.

I know that Bill is frantically putting together the 'release' thread. At least he's asking for more measurements from me a lot! lol! Watch for a new thread from muzz or harp when they're done! Me? Unless something better comes along (doubtful), I'll be spraying a new screen come spring!

While we're at it, I know that rfisher would prefer to experiment with this. What about you James? Would you prefer to buy a pre-mixed version at cost from one of us?

mech

I really don't prefer to experiment, I just thought it was the fastest way to test the new formula. I would gladly buy some. I also have a spectrophotometer to take measurements with. Just let me know.

[muzz]

This place is like a ghost town these days..

Hurry up UPS!!!

[mechman]

We are patiently awaiting harp's opinion. I'm thinking it will come today. Jim is busy with 'poker' at the moment. Me? I like craps!

mech

[muzz]

Craps is the only game I play!!

[mechman]

I'll have some new shots later. Ambient light shots. Watch for a new thread!

mech

[Harpmaker]

I'm truly sorry to disappoint those waiting for my report, but Mr. Murphy and his Law (you all know him right?) hasn't just been busy, he's set up camp in my backyard.

H.