Looking for Screen Paint Solution

**Panny82** · **11-28-07, 11:23 AM**

For the life of me I can not find what EasyFlex is, is it a additive you add to the behr 1050 paint?

**wbassett** · **11-28-07, 11:48 AM**

Quote:

Panny82 wrote:

For the life of me I can not find what EasyFlex is, is it a additive you add to the behr 1050 paint?

EasyFlex is more of a tint ratio system than anything. It is based on Behr paints and custom tints.

Tiddler is the one that came up with that method but is no longer on this forum so those threads aren't being updated by him anymore.

The idea was to mix neutral or near neutral gray shades. It was a noble effort but personally I feel unless a person only has a Home Depot available to them or just prefers Behr products over any other brand of paint, there are many OTS (Off The Shelf) neutral and near neutral grays already identified and available. If Home Depot is the only store a person has access to, they also have some OTS grays that can be used. If you opt for an EF application you would have to contact Tiddler for any new tint mixes.

From a KISS perspective (Keep It Simple) OTS is the easiest way to go.

We are also completing a master list of spectrophotometer and spectral curve graphs of all DIY methods as well as commercial screens. We understand that not everyone is interested in DIY so the commercial side is also being tested and reviewed.

**Panny82** · **11-28-07, 12:05 PM**

wbassett, do you have any recommendations for paint, I have access to pretty much any type of paint. It will be a large screen 140+in. Pretty much the same exact setup of this post. The only diffrence is I have the Panny PT-AX200U and it will be completely dark while watching movies and while I game i might have a small light on. I would like a happy medium between whites and blacks. Any ideas?

**mechman** · **11-28-07, 12:17 PM**

I'd like to add that EasyFlex was not a neutral or a near neutral for that matter. And the addition of the pearlizing medium topcoats has a negative effect upon the base coat. We've done a bit of research on micas and we cannot recommend going down the EasyFlex or the pearl/pearlizing paths.

mech

**wbassett** · **11-28-07, 12:24 PM**

The AX200U can definitely handle a screen that size that's for sure.

What are some of your other parameters like your room size, how far back the projector will be, will it be ceiling mounted? Things like that.

Based on what you are saying, something like Winter Mist might be right up your alley. It's a light gray in the Munsell N9 range and is one of the most neutral OTS gray listed. You could go a bit darker, even to an N8 depending on how far back your projector is and what the fL end up being.

Martin Senior has a nice looking gray in the N8.5 range called 80-4 Plum Luster that is 219 219 219, L*ab of 87.4800 -0.4200 0.2800, xyY of 70.9897 0.31265 0.32987.

Let us know more about your setup and what brands of paint you prefer or have access to and we can start working from there.

**Panny82** · **11-28-07, 12:25 PM**

One sec with my specs.

**Panny82** · **11-28-07, 12:35 PM**

My room size is 13ft wide and my projector is going to be about 20ft back which can be changed if you guys think it would be better. I have a ceiling mount for it and plan on mounting up their. As for brand of paint I am willing to get what ever you guys think would be best.

Martin Senior has a nice looking gray in the N8.5 range called 80-4 Plum Luster that is 219 219 219, L*ab of 87.4800 -0.4200 0.2800, xyY of 70.9897 0.31265 0.32987.

Are these the numbers I would give the person mixing my paint, if so which ones would I need to tell him.

**wbassett** · **11-28-07, 12:50 PM**

When you say base coating, are you refering to a two step method, a base color and some sort of optical coating or a base primer and then the actual screen?

Using poly provides a protective layer which flat paints benefit from, but from a gain perspective poly alone does very little. Gain itself is often misunderstood, what you are looking for is to get your screen fL within recommended specifications for a particular setup. If the fL are too low, then something that boosts the gain will be needed or a brighter projector (in your case not an issue) or smaller screen. Too much gain is not a good thing.

With that in mind, unless you really need poly, it adds a color shift to things and I would stick with a durable and cleanable paint that doesn't need it.

Also check out this thread on neutral grays, specifically the posts dealing with gray screens with total light control and How to Determine if Gray is for You.

Since you are also interested in a painted screen option, if you haven't looked at the DIY Screen Painting 101 thread that is also a good one to read through for some tips on painting a screen.

**wbassett** · **11-28-07, 01:15 PM**

Quote:

Panny82 wrote:

My room size is 13ft wide and my projector is going to be about 20ft back which can be changed if you guys think it would be better. I have a ceiling mount for it and plan on mounting up their. As for brand of paint I am willing to get what ever you guys think would be best.

Martin Senior has a nice looking gray in the N8.5 range called 80-4 Plum Luster that is 219 219 219, L*ab of 87.4800 -0.4200 0.2800, xyY of 70.9897 0.31265 0.32987.

Are these the numbers I would give the person mixing my paint, if so which ones would I need to tell him.

Those dimensions would give you 13fL of brightness with a 140" diagonal screen (that takes into consideration bulb age, brand new it would be brighter but this gives an indication more accurate to the brightness over the life of the bulb). So you're already fine in that department since the mininum recommended fL for a light controlled room is 12fL of brightness. Like I said though, you will be brighter than that out of the box but you'll be fine, it shouldn't be too bright and cause eye fatigue.

The numbers I posted are the color balance values that show it is a very neutral gray. If you want that particular shade, all you need is a local Martin Senior store or someone that sells their paint and tell them you want 80-4 Plum Luster, preferably in a matte finish, but one that is durable and cleanable.

Also you probably will want a gallon of it, a quart will be pushing it to do a 140" screen. You won't need the whole gallon, but it's better to have a little more than you need than run out. Even though things are computerized, there usually is a slight variance between paint batches.

**Panny82** · **11-28-07, 02:08 PM**

You think going with a light grey will help on being to bright also. I just got done throwing a coat of Kilz 2 on the wall and I will be putting up another before I have to lay down (3rd Shift). I get my projector tommoro and plan on playing with it. I got a calibration dvd to try to tune it. I read on your sticky painting 101 about paint brands and you really did not lean one certain way with a grey color. I am wondering if since you wrote that sticky have you found one that stuck out over the rest. The main reason I want to go with a little grey is. I figure the panny is very bright and shooting that on a white screen in a completely dark room. I am worried about how my blacks might suffer and how bad the whites are going to blind me. Thats why I am trying to find a happy medium to get the best of both worlds per say.

**wbassett** · **11-28-07, 02:16 PM**

You're definitely on the right track. Kilz2 is an excellent unity gain white reference screen. From there you can play with screen sizes to see what works best and you like best. Calibrate it and sit back for a few days/week and watch movies and any other content you would be using it for to get a good feel for its performance. If there is something you don't like, like say blacks don't look black, then you might be a candidate for a gray.

Also put up some type of border for a black reference even if it's just a temporary border using something like black hockey tape. Believe it or not that stuff works great for a temp setup and having a black reference will help with your perceived black levels and give you an idea what it will look like all dressed out.

Don't forget to recalibrate if you decide you want something other than the white Kilz2. Calibration makes a huge difference when going from a light shade to a darker one.

**mechman** · **11-28-07, 03:05 PM**

I spun this off as a new thread.

mech

**cynical2** · **11-28-07, 03:51 PM**

Hi Stryker, Welcome to the Shack! I'm the OP for the thread that you originally posted in.

I want to concur with what mech and Bill have mentioned...my original paint selection was made before some of the knowledge that we now have existed, and knowing that the EF with pearl topcoat solution is non-neutral, it makes more sense to simply select a neutral off-the-shelf (OTS) grey. You can see a red push in some of the early shots in my thread...like some from MIB II. I was eventually able to calibrate my pj out of the issue by going into the individual color controls and compensating, but it makes sense that overall you'll have a better experience if you start neutral, and in turn don't have to use your pj to make up for a screen that's non-neutral. There's just no reason to introduce the deviation from neutrality in the 1st place, given the data that we now have.

I can tell you that I've since repainted my screen to True Value "Winter Mountain"...it's another neutral, a bit darker shade than the Winter Mist that Bill mentioned.

You'll love the pj and the image it will deliver on a neutral screen. You've made a good choice with the Panny...and I'd encourage you to shoot on the Kilz for a few days at least, to give you an idea of what a simple flat white screen will give you. You may decide that you like a white screen, since you're in a light controlled room. There are plenty of low-light modes on your pj that will allow you to obtain good black levels without blinding whites on a white screen. In fact, at least one mode won't deliver enough brightness for a screen the size of yours (at least to my eyes it's not bright enough...I think it's called "Cinema2").

One comment about mounting from the ceiling...my room is in the basement, directly below my family room. I initially ceiling-mounted my pj, only to find that since I was tied to a floor joist of the family room, every time someone walked above (or in the case of my kids, jumped around) the area of the pj, the image would shake. I ended up building a shelf for the rear wall of the room to avoid the issue. That wall isn't coupled to the HT ceiling (fam rm floor) structure at all, so I now get absolutely no image shake...no matter what's going on above me. Not sure of your situation, but wanted to mention it since I saw you're planning to ceiling mount.

Let us know how things progress, and take lots of pics! We'll be happy to help you through the process. It's still fresh in my mind.

Jim

**Panny82** · **11-28-07, 04:17 PM**

Thanks for the info Jim, I did read that you got vibration after I bought the ceiling mount. The space above the ceiling where i am going to mount the projector in a closet so I might get lucky. I want to say wow on your theater room it really turned out awesome. I will be very lucky if mine turns out as good. I am just working with paneling right now which I just got done mudding all the cracks and putting a coat of Kilz2 on. Pretty lam screen for now but after reading though the threads. I find that it is more important to start with a color and play with the size before making the screen. I plan on framing mine with 2x4's and centering it on the wall. So my screen will be raised 4in out away from the wall. And then using either black paint or fabric to fill the recessed area. I will post pics as I go to give you a better idea. Do you think I should still use a border around the screen itself. Maybe raise it above the screen at least a inch to stop the light or is that not an issue.

**cynical2** · **11-28-07, 04:35 PM**

Thanks for the kind words, Stryker. Yep, you may be OK with a closet above...a lot will depend on the direction your joists run, and what else is above the joist that you'll be attaching your mount to.

I'm not sure that I completely followed your description of the screen construction...some pics will definitely help. A border around the screen serves two important purposes...one is to handle light spillover. A typical installation will run an image that is slightly larger than the screen area, with a bit of spillover. A border that absorbs light makes it very difficult to see that spillover, while running the picture this way (slightly oversized) covers any very very minor imperfections in the shape of the projected image (edges that aren't completely straight, slight keystoning, etc). I typically have ~1/4-1/2" spillover onto the border, and it's almost impossible to detect unless (1) the image is extremely bright, and (2) you are looking for it.

Secondarily, a "deep black" border also provides a reference to the viewer that's in close proximity to the screen. It provides a boost to the perceived contrast ratio, making whites and colors appear brighter.

Unless there is good reason not to do it, I would definitely recommend a border...the size (width) of it really is driven by aesthetics. With a 140" screen, I would think that 3+" would "look right"...but there is no hard and fast rule. At a minimum, you want to provide plenty of width for light spillover, and the wider you make it (generally speaking, and up to a reasonable width), the more it will help offset the perceived image on the screen.

Jim

**rubbersoul** · **11-28-07, 10:18 PM**

Just wanted to add my two cents in this thread. I saw a product at the New York Home Theater Show for the do it yourself screen guy.
Check this site http://www.theaterthings.com

The product produced a great picture and it is not expensive.

**Panny82** · **11-29-07, 07:51 AM**

What do you guys think of that screen Goo paint. What males that paint any different than a neutral white or grey? And what makes their topcoat any different than poly? Has anyone analyzed their paint to see what makes it so special.

**wbassett** · **11-29-07, 09:25 AM**

Quote:

Panny82 wrote:

What do you guys think of that screen Goo paint. What makes that paint any different than a neutral white or grey? And what makes their topcoat any different than poly? Has anyone analyzed their paint to see what makes it so special.

Goo Systems is good but can be a bit difficult to apply without streaks. It is definitely the most famous commercial screen paint out there because it is one of the first commercial screen paints that was available. It got its Genesis on AVS and started out much like many of the other DIY paints, and then went commercial. To answer your question, no it hasn't been analyzed yet. I've contacted a lot of the commercial screen paint companies and a couple have provided samples for review, and some never responded.

One thing I'd like to state is when it comes to the commercial screen paints and commercial screens, our goal is not to reverse engineer them. First they typically use professional grade products that we can't get, and in some cases the companies actually have labs and factories where they develop their own polymers that are used for their products. Secondly, it really wouldn't be right to do something like that.

Now, I don't see any problem with verifying reported gain and getting the color balance of commercial products. That way we can look at the physical properties as well as the performance and have a better way of rating screens. Just like in DIY and the way I approach things, if you have two grays that are both say a Munsell N8 shade, and both have the same gain, how do you determine if one is better than the other? The color balance. I have said many times that we can use a wide variety of colors for a screen, but the closer to D65 neutral, the more accurate the screen will be at reproducing the colors presented by the projector. I'm sure a person would not want a screen that shifted the entire color spectrum. Sure most of the time it can be compensated for at the projector, but not always. It's a lot like using your zoom and Keystoning to correct things. Yes it can be done, and as long as it isn't anything major most people won't see any degradation in Picture Quality, but it isn't optimal. Why add variables to the process?

Gain is another item that sometimes is a tricky thing. Some companies have their own way of testing that are not the same as industry standards. Goo Systems reports some very high gains, but when tested and compared to other commercial screens it didn't appear to have the amount of gain that was reported.

Quote:

Projector Central's Screen Shootout wrote:

Despite its 1.8 gain rating, the CRT White screen we tested had no discernible gain. It measured at 100% relative to the standard white board, making it the fourth brightest of the white screens reviewed. However it was only 23% less bright that the first place Studiotek 130, so it holds it own quite well against products many times its cost.

To read the entire review, go here.

I am not being negative towards Goo Systems, just pointing out some of the reported issues and reviews.

There are probably more commercial screen paint companies out there than most people realize.

In no particular order or ranking:

Prices range from under $100 to well over $200. For some, the idea of getting something that isn't trial and error like DIY can sometimes be, the money is well worth it.

From the samples I do have, I can say there is a difference between house paints and some of these commercial offerings. I don't want to make a blanket statement and say all of them are top notch and specially designed, some may very well be virtually identical to what's being done in DIY. For example, eBay has a couple of 'commercial' screen paints that may or may not be anything different than what you find in the forums. (I say 'commercial' because since they are being sold for profit they fit the definition of a commercial product). The eBay products very well could be specially designed paints and polymers just for screens, but I can't say with certainty.

Rosco also offers paints used in the stage and theater community and they have a very interesting white paint called Rosco's Off Broadway White White. The company actually acknowledges its use as a screen paint, and it is unique when compared to house paints. First it is a vinyl based paint that comes in a matte finish and is cleanable and very durable. Second, you can get a gallon of it for a little under $30.

Now for a statement that could get me in some hot water... Why mix and guess? Some of these commercial screen paints are testing very well and a few are very reasonably priced as compared to other DIY methods. If you spend $40-$60 on house paints and craft paints and then have to mix and measure everything, each step adding variables and human error, and there is a commercial product, base and optical top coating for $85 to $100 it almost seems like a wash.

A couple reasons why people do DIY though, one is many have no idea there are more options than Goo Systems, and at $185 for a quart for the optical top coating, they may have some reservations. Other's swear by it though, all I can say is it will be tested and reviewed but first there is a lot of unfinished work that needs to be completed.

Another reason is some people like the idea of making something from scratch. I know I do and that's part of the fun and pride of things. Others though just want a screen and not a screen hobby and that too is understandable. Then some may have blown their budget on a projector not realizing how much a screen can cost and turn to DIY for a quick alternative. Many end up staying with their DIY screens, and some move on to a commercial offering down the road.

In the end there are many options available both in DIY and commercial. One of the things we are trying to do is weed through things and do some actual testing that includes performance verification and double checking specs that are given. There is a lot of work to do but we are getting there!

**mechman** · **11-29-07, 10:29 AM**

Quote:

wbassett wrote:

Now for a statement that could get me in some hot water... Why mix and guess? Some of these commercial screen paints are testing very well and a few are very reasonably priced as compared to other DIY methods. If you spend $40-$60 on house paints and craft paints and then have to mix and measure everything, each step adding variables and human error, and there is a commercial product, base and optical top coating for $85 to $100 it almost seems like a wash.

I think this was proven with the Silver Fire experiments. Three samples from three different people and three completely different results. The important end result is all three are not happy with Silver Fire and are looking for, or using, alternatives.

My Silver Fire mix:

Two other's mixes:

mech

**wbassett** · **11-29-07, 11:04 AM**

Excellent punctuation mech.

Before anyone gets upset, mech and I are not saying that SILVER can't be done, just that it's not an easy application. Mech did a shoot-off between SILVER and Designer White and there are pros and cons to each application, but to make another point, there are pros and cons between commercial screens too.

The OTS method is very easy and provides solid performance and is extremely cost effective, the increase in performance from them to complex applications is a topic of a lot of debate. My point is when it hits a certain price level for DIY, if there is a commercial option that tests well that is around the same cost to the user, that will be an option we will point out.

Designer White is an outstanding DIY method for a white screen and it is a very neutral/near neutral white. It does have a size limitation though, so at that point a person would most likely be looking at a painted option.

Back to topic though and sorry about getting slightly off topic Stryker...

Continue on with what you are doing now. Calibrate to the Kilz2 and get a feel for the projector and anything that you might want to improve. Seriously, without getting a baseline you'll never know if you made an improvement or not... or worse if you would have been happier with a regular white screen...

Once you get some time to evaluate things and have a baseline, tell us what you think and we'll go from there. Sounds like a pain I know, but trust me, it's worth it in the long run.

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