Black Widow PFG - the Discussion

**mechman** · **05-03-08, 11:09 AM**

Quote:

tweakophyte wrote:

If I read it correctly, these are all Valspar Flat Ultra White and AAA. Should I assume these are all flat on the spectro? It seems like there are a lot of ways to get very close to the same number. Which Munsell grey do these hit?

One more... does 4:1:1 mean make a 4:1 mix then cut it in half with the Bermuda Beige mix or is it 4 parts plus one part plus one part? In other words, 32oz of BB, 8 oz of AAA, then 40oz of BB or 320z BB, 8oz AAA, 8oz BB?

PS My Java was not working with the lindbloom calc, otherwise I would have converted the color-temp here.

tweak,

Lots of questions!

Yes they are all flat on the spectrums. They tail down a bit in the high reds but it's pretty close to infrared.

Define 'same number'!

I see three very distinct different shades of gray. The 3:1:1 and the 4:1:1 are pretty much the same though.

The Munsell grays are listed here.

The X:X:1's are explained both there in the sticky and in the further investigation part two thread where they were researched and developed. I have tested them with both flat and flat enamel and they produce identical results. The first number is Bermuda Beige, the second is AAA, and the third is Valspar Flat Ultra White in either flat or flat enamel.

Contrary to what you may read elsewhere, there are a number of bases that work with Black Widow - including flats.

And I can say that I've seen no difference between the flat and the flat enamel BW/AAA.

I thought you were sticking with the Do-Able?

**shaolin95** · **05-03-08, 12:14 PM**

ok,so what is exactly a base? Do you mean the Kilz? Told you I know nothing about paints.

**mechman** · **05-03-08, 01:30 PM**

Quote:

shaolin95 wrote:

ok,so what is exactly a base? Do you mean the Kilz? Told you I know nothing about paints.

The base is basically just what you mix the AAA or the HE-558 with. In AAA's case it would be Valspar's Ultra Premium or Signature, Behr 1850, Pittsburgh Paint Speedhide or Grand Distinction, Olympic Premium, Benjamin Moore, etc. in either a flat or flat enamel finish tinted Bermuda Beige. Mix that 4 parts to 1 part Auto Air Aluminum Fine and apply it over a couple of primer coats of Kilz2 or whatever primer you can get. Use a 1/4" nap roller if you can find one - 3/8ths will suffice if you have to. And get a decent one like a Purdy roller cover.

Again the only base that I've tested that does not work is Behr Exterior 4850. I should add that if you can get Dulux, it has been reported to work just fine.

**meck11** · **05-03-08, 01:31 PM**

sherwin wiliams luminious white
should this be flat or satin semi gloss ?

thanks again for the help

**shaolin95** · **05-03-08, 01:46 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

The base is basically just what you mix the AAA or the HE-558 with. In AAA's case it would be Valspar's Ultra Premium or Signature, Behr 1850, Pittsburgh Paint Speedhide or Grand Distinction, Olympic Premium, Benjamin Moore, etc. in either a flat or flat enamel finish tinted Bermuda Beige. Mix that 4 parts to 1 part Auto Air Aluminum Fine and apply it over a couple of primer coats of Kilz2 or whatever primer you can get. Use a 1/4" nap roller if you can find one - 3/8ths will suffice if you have to. And get a decent one like a Purdy roller cover.

Again the only base that I've tested that does not work is Behr Exterior 4850. I should add that if you can get Dulux, it has been reported to work just fine.

THanks a lot, I will try the 4:1 since my PJ has good blacks and contrast already. Do you think I can paint a piece of card board box as a test sample? It would be my practice material lol
I was planning to try it this weekend but probably finding the AAA locally will be a no go...I may have to try with the other mix.

**Harpmaker** · **05-03-08, 03:38 PM**

Quote:

meck11 wrote:

sherwin wiliams luminious white
should this be flat or satin semi gloss ?

thanks again for the help

Flat. It doesn't take very much gloss to be too much and cause hot-spotting (parts of the screen are brighter than other parts) when watching the screen.

**meck11** · **05-03-08, 03:59 PM**

can matte be used or is it better to use flat
I am new to all of this

**tweakophyte** · **05-03-08, 06:21 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

I thought you were sticking with the Do-Able?

Well, I might have been but I scratched it and that scratch is going to bother me... for sure. If you remember, the doable was just my substrate of choice for my floating screen. It is thick but not too heavy. My plan was that I would most likely paint it.

Doable does seem to be a little better at rejecting ambient light than my 1:1:1 MMud wall. That said, I'm not sure I love it. I still need to figure out if I like going grey or not.

Why do you think I ask so many questions here, anyway?

**muzz** · **05-03-08, 08:05 PM**

Quote:

shaolin95 wrote:

THanks a lot, I will try the 4:1 since my PJ has good blacks and contrast already. Do you think I can paint a piece of card board box as a test sample? It would be my practice material lol
I was planning to try it this weekend but probably finding the AAA locally will be a no go...I may have to try with the other mix.

Luis

A cardboard test panel will be fine IMO, just be aware of curls and such that could affect quality because of distorted viewing angle.

m

**Jodean** · **05-03-08, 10:02 PM**

Am i still the only one that cant paint this stuff without streaks??

Ive left my screen as is for a couple months now, it still bothers me when watching stuff in the snow.

I did paint horizontally the last time to limit the effect...

Just wondering i never saw anyone esle have problems with it....or maybe they dont notice?

Joe

**mechman** · **05-04-08, 12:10 AM**

Quote:

meck11 wrote:

can matte be used or is it better to use flat
I am new to all of this

I prefer the flat enamel/matte since it gives a little better durability.

**mechman** · **05-04-08, 12:15 AM**

Quote:

Jodean wrote:

Am i still the only one that cant paint this stuff without streaks??

Ive left my screen as is for a couple months now, it still bothers me when watching stuff in the snow.

I did paint horizontally the last time to limit the effect...

Just wondering i never saw anyone esle have problems with it....or maybe they dont notice?

Joe

Joe,

There may have been others... but I cannot recall any at the moment. If I recall correctly you have a monster size area that you painted. I really think that you need to have someone with you following behind you doing the back rolling as you are using the HE-558 and it is required when using the 'leafing' aluminum flakes.

Didn't you paint an area larger than your screen size as well? You may want to figure out the exact screen size and just paint that area. I know I talked of driving down and helping you but since then gas has gone up about a buck a gallon.

See if you can get someone to help you do it. If you think it's form previous layers start anew with a couple of coats of Kilz2 first.

**Harpmaker** · **05-04-08, 12:29 AM**

Quote:

tweakophyte wrote:

Well, I might have been but I scratched it and that scratch is going to bother me... for sure. If you remember, the doable was just my substrate of choice for my floating screen. It is thick but not too heavy. My plan was that I would most likely paint it.

Doable does seem to be a little better at rejecting ambient light than my 1:1:1 MMud wall. That said, I'm not sure I love it. I still need to figure out if I like going grey or not.

Why do you think I ask so many questions here, anyway?

I hate to mention this in the BW thread, but why not try the Cream&Sugar#3 mix (assuming you have a True Value hardware and Michael's nearby). It's neutral and is the smallest tad lighter than Winter Mist (meaning it's a VERY light gray), plus it does have some gain from the metallic silver in it. You would only have a financial outlay of about $14 in paint, and if you later want better ambient performance I think you could paint directly over the C&S with BW. If nothing else, it would hide that scratch.

**mechman** · **05-04-08, 12:38 AM**

Quote:

Harpmaker wrote:

I hate to mention this in the BW thread, but why not try the Cream&Sugar#3 mix (assuming you have a True Value hardware and Michael's nearby). It's neutral and is the smallest tad lighter than Winter Mist (meaning it's a VERY light gray), plus it does have some gain from the metallic silver in it. You would only have a financial outlay of about $14 in paint, and if you later want better ambient performance I think you could paint directly over the C&S with BW. If nothing else, it would hide that scratch.

This is good advice!

It is a much lighter gray.

**Jodean** · **05-04-08, 10:50 AM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Joe,

Didn't you paint an area larger than your screen size as well?

Just a 2" extra border.....

It doesnt bother me that much to redo it. maybe after awhile. But if i watched snow scenes or your hockey.....then i probrably would....its really noticeable with a white picture.

**percept** · **05-14-08, 04:12 PM**

just wondering if there were any further developments on this or if the OG formula still reigns supreme. I just got my 2 bottles of AAA and plan on doing the painting soon. I also had a few questions with regards to the bases. Does any one base perform better than the other? I think I've read that Home Depot has bermuda beige in the system and it can be mixed with a base of behr 1850. Is this as good a formula to use as the valspar base? Thanks in advance for the help.

**mechman** · **05-14-08, 09:17 PM**

No more developments. It's a finished product.

As for bases, the best I have worked with is definitely the Valspar in both Signature and Ultra Premium. The Pittsburgh Paint comes in up top as well. The Behr 1850 works fine if that's all you have available to you. Do any perform better than others? No. The only differences I noted was the differences in color matching - both Lowe's and Menards are better than Home Depot near me - and the difference in application. Both of the Valspars and the Pittsburgh rolled very nicely.

**cynical2** · **05-16-08, 05:20 PM**

Quote:

percept wrote:

just wondering if there were any further developments on this or if the OG formula still reigns supreme. I just got my 2 bottles of AAA and plan on doing the painting soon. I also had a few questions with regards to the bases. Does any one base perform better than the other? I think I've read that Home Depot has bermuda beige in the system and it can be mixed with a base of behr 1850. Is this as good a formula to use as the valspar base? Thanks in advance for the help.

I'll leave mech and Bill to answer your questions about BW, and they know a lot more about it than me. But, I did want to say WELCOME to the SHACK!

**mechman** · **05-16-08, 07:06 PM**

Well just when I call it done.....

My friends in the UK have given new hope to getting a much lighter version of Black Widow! They've sent me a sample of a new Aluminum product which has the identical spectrum as AAA albeit much lighter.

Here are the numbers

AAA

152 155 157
0.308 0.326 32.6
63.8 -0.69 -1.42

The new Aluminum

194 196 198
0.309 0.327 55.1
79.1 -0.51 -1.28

That's much improved luminance wise!!! Now if I can find a suitable substitute here...

we'll be at N9 easily I would guess! And, from the looks of things, it should mix just fine with Bermuda Beige!!

**percept** · **05-16-08, 07:47 PM**

Quote:

cynical2 wrote:

I'll leave mech and Bill to answer your questions about BW, and they know a lot more about it than me. But, I did want to say WELCOME to the SHACK!

thanks. ive always been more of a lurker as i dont have much to contribute. ive been reading up for the past few years, and i still feel like i know nothing.

**Prof.** · **05-17-08, 08:04 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Well just when I call it done.....

My friends in the UK have given new hope to getting a much lighter version of Black Widow! They've sent me a sample of a new Aluminum product which has the identical spectrum as AAA albeit much lighter.

Here are the numbers

AAA

152 155 157
0.308 0.326 32.6
63.8 -0.69 -1.42

The new Aluminum

194 196 198
0.309 0.327 55.1
79.1 -0.51 -1.28

That's much improved luminance wise!!! Now if I can find a suitable substitute here...

we'll be at N9 easily I would guess! And, from the looks of things, it should mix just fine with Bermuda Beige!!

Sounds interesting mech..

I might have to hold off on my screen until we know what that aluminium is..

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