Black Widow PFG - the Discussion - Black Widow

**wbassett** · **07-21-08, 12:06 AM**

Another happy BW user!

Quote:

Just finished the screen yesterday and it looks great. Blacks are Black, Whites are White and the colors are bright!

I had the Valspar Bermuda Beige mixed at Lowes in a quart, added 8oz of AAA fine and mixed it well for my topcoat. I used 3/16 Hardboard for the screen and primed it with Kilz2 primer. I did wet sand before I applied the BW AAA but that was because I used serveral coats to cover up some dark spots on the hardboard and ended up with more orange peel than I wanted.

I'm using a Sanyo PLV-Z4 projector and I've used this same projector on a Firehawk screen and a Da-Lite screen (both gray screens) and this looks everybit as good or better. I do remember being slighly disappointed in the Firehawk, I never got the vivid colors I'm seeing on this screen. Tha's all just an opinion since nothing matters unless you compare side by side but for the price I don't think I would every pick another factory screen again. I can't see anthing I would improve on this screen as it is. Thank you guy's for all the hard work testing and figuring this out!

I've seen it said that people think Black Widow looks so good because they have no frame of reference and haven't seen a good screen before. Many have tried other DIY methods and screens, but it's always nice to see confirmation from someone that has actually used a screen like a FireHawk.

Hearing another happy user always puts a smile on my face.

**tweakophyte** · **07-21-08, 08:34 AM**

Long story, short.

Painting BW on my "floating" piece of doable looked great until the screen fell and knocked a hole in the wall. I'm punting on the "floating" screen, but am moving forward with painting the screen wall.

Last night I spent time sanding the good 'ol orignal MMud. There were always defects in the surface, but you could never see them once you were a few feet away. I figured if I was going to go for BW I should spend a little extra time smoothing the wall some more.

Last night I put on a coat of primer. It is not as smooth or consistent as I was shooting for, and even further away from what the first primed coat of the doable looked like. I also have some roller marks, even though I back-rolled.

- How sandable is Kilz2? Is it worth going over it with a super-fine sanding pad (one of those small, 320 grit 6"x6", 1/8" pads)? This would be to smooth it a little more AND to get rid of the roller marks.

- Should I just go for one more coat of Kilz2 to try to both smooth and get rid of the roller marks?

- Should I try both?

By the way, my full plan is to prime the wall (in process), then paint the whole screen wall with TV Winter Mountain tinted Valspar Ultra. After that I will use my precious last bit of BW over an area that is slightly larger than the actual screen size. Make sense? Thoughts on that?

FWIW, an old shot of my screen wall, which you can see is larger than the size of the pic.

**tweakophyte** · **07-21-08, 06:01 PM**

Nudge... any comments on this?

Quote:

Last night I put on a coat of primer. It is not as smooth or consistent as I was shooting for, and even further away from what the first primed coat of the doable looked like. I also have some roller marks, even though I back-rolled.

- How sandable is Kilz2? Is it worth going over it with a super-fine sanding pad (one of those small, 320 grit 6"x6", 1/8" pads)? This would be to smooth it a little more AND to get rid of the roller marks.

- Should I just go for one more coat of Kilz2 to try to both smooth and get rid of the roller marks?

- Should I try both?

**mechman** · **07-21-08, 07:11 PM**

Tweak,

I'd try to get it as smooth as possible and get rid of the roller marks. Regarding those roller marks, are you adding any water to the Kilz? That might help a bit.

Kilz is sand-able but you have to wait until it's completely dry. Otherwise it'll smudge.

When you're done with all the sanding, throw on another coat of Kilz.

**tweakophyte** · **07-21-08, 09:44 PM**

Hi-

How dry are we talking... 24 hours dry or a 2 week curing period?

Btw, I'm thinking the reason it did not go on as smooth as the doable piece I did so well is the roller cover was not new. Then again, it was only its second use.

**mechman** · **07-21-08, 11:14 PM**

I'd wait at least a day. It's not humid in the room is it?

And you can always try an inconspicuous spot.

**Harpmaker** · **07-22-08, 03:46 AM**

Could have sworn I answered this... just my luck, I probably forget to actually send the post!

I have never sanded Kilz2, but since the desired outcome is to make a FLAT screen I would recommend NOT using sanding sponges or holding the sandpaper in your hand alone. Use a sanding block. What happens when trying to sand down bumps with a flexible sanding surface (pad or hand) is the tops of the bumps get taken down, but not the sides of the bump; also the bottoms of the bump area also tend to get dished out as well, creating new bumps or adding valleys (think of this on the almost-microscopic level).

I would recommend "open coat" sandpaper since it is designed not to "load" (the spaces between the grains of grit filling with sanded material) as fast as normal sandpaper. An even better idea might be to use 220 grit drywall cloth. This is an open mesh sanding screen that allows the sanding dust to escape and not interfere with the process. Go slow and use a light touch making sure to have an oblique angled light on the wall while sanding so you can see your progress.

**tweakophyte** · **07-22-08, 08:37 AM**

Harp... you described my sanding process well. I did what I could with an old 320 grit sanding thing (it is a thin rubbery piece of material)... it did not do much. I decided to put another coat of Kilz2 on. This moring the screen wall looks better.

There are a few spots with what might be described as roller marks. The marks are not ridges like you would get from pushing to hard (they never were). They are more like textured areas where the grain of the paint laid slightly different. Is that the same thing as roller marks? As you can see in the pic above, the wall is brightly lit from above with two 75 watt floods... very revealing for this type of work.

For some reason the Kilz2 did not go on as easily as it have when painting the doable. It has been very dry here in CO, so I'd imagine it's drying/thickening rather quickly. Water might have been good but I did not have any... you know how that goes. The roller cover also became very matted down. Again, I think it is related to the thickness of the primer and the humidity. Experts agree?

My next step is to paint the whole wall with Valsper Ultra tinted to TV Winter Mountain (N8). It's the next step in my plan. I'm also hoping the paint will lay a little better than the Kilz2 has been. Maybe that will help with the inconsistentcies?

Thoughts?

Okay... here's the real potential issue. The screen wall was never perfectly smooth. It's got large areas, that with the right light and up close (not super close) you can tell are not flat (kind of like Harp desrbied). It also has areas with inconsistent texture. With the MMud, it never effected the picture... we're talking defects that people sweat about on these forums could not been seen in years of viewing.

So now I'm sweating...

How will BW with its aluminum bits fare on my imperfect wall? What should I look for after painting the Winter Mountain? I've only got enough BW for one coat or so, so I want to get to a point where I can make a good call.

Thanks,

**Harpmaker** · **07-22-08, 01:40 PM**

Tweak, now you know why I spray!

There are those that can roll unthinned Kilz2, I'm not one of them. I only tried it once and it seemed to be rolling out like it was peanut butter, in fact, peanut butter would have probably rolled better.

I'll take the blame for 90% of that failure, but the unthinned Kilz2 that I have is really thick paint. I can't imagine trying to roll it in a very dry climate...

I really would recommend getting the wall in shape before applying any kind of finish paint. The thing about surface imperfections is that they seldom go away by simply covering them with more paint or finish. This is especially true for film coatings like rolled or brushed paint. The paint film will tend to mimic the contour of the surface it is applied over.

I really don't know how much texture difference it takes to become apparent with BW, I have only sprayed smooth hardboard panels with it. My guess would be that it would be not much different that painting the same surface with a semi-gloss paint. If you think a semi-gloss would show the imperfections in the wall, BW probably would too. This is not a proven theory, it is only a guess on my part.

**mechman** · **07-22-08, 05:05 PM**

Tweak,

What kind of problems are we talking about here? Is it texture from rolling paint? Roller marks? Indentations on the wall? If it's texture from rolling using a low nap roller, I doubt you'd have any problems. Any roller marks should be sanded lightly and then apply BW. If you have large indentations, fill them with joint compound or spackle, if you wish, sand it smooth and re-prime.

Can you show us what the problem is with a photo?

You could always swing the cat over your head and hail Gryzboken!

**tweakophyte** · **07-23-08, 12:05 AM**

Okay... I've got a few things going on. One is varying roller texture. The other is underlying defects in the wall itself. The last thing is the shaded roller-marks (the left side of shot 93). They are not marks from pushing too hard, but rather texture differences or something... I think related to the paint not laying well in the roller.

Attached are a couple of examples. Again, most of these were there with the MMud and it never bothered me.

In #81 you can see a lot of the defects. If you can't see them, look at some of the other shots and then they'll be a little more obvious.

**tweakophyte** · **07-23-08, 12:12 AM**

By the way... I decided to move forward and paint the winter mountain coat. In the worst-case scenario I will suck it up and get yet another substrate to paint (probably thrifty white hardboard), but this time I will mount it on the wall. Base case is the winter mountain will hide some of the defect by virtue of being grey.

So far it looks like it is hiding the roller marks better than the Kilz2. That's why I think it is more texture/grain related. The Valspar paint went on much nicer than the Kilz2. Still, it could have been MUCH thinner. My roller cover ends up looking like an almost empty roll of paper towells because it gets so matted down from the paint.

If I decide to use my last precious bit of BW on the wall I will definitely thin it. I guess it really is that dry out here. Last time I painted it was not as hot and dry (it's been in the mid-to-high 90s plus a 100 degree day last Sat.

**mechman** · **07-23-08, 12:23 AM**

Don't look that bad to me at all tweak! Paint it up! Did you see the ding I put in my sprayed screen? Much worse than anything you've got! I lightly sanded and sprayed three more coats IIRC. Three sprayed is probably the equivalent of one rolled by the way!

I think your fine.

Here's what the ding looked like:

**tweakophyte** · **07-23-08, 12:26 AM**

Ahh... I feel much better. Let's see how the winter mountain sets up tomorrow or so.

PS You're still on my chit list.

Soon... I swear!

**wbassett** · **07-23-08, 02:37 PM**

Two words... Liner Paper!

**tweakophyte** · **07-23-08, 02:49 PM**

Quote:

wbassett wrote:

Two words... Liner Paper!

Is that for me? What is it and how would I use it?

**tweakophyte** · **07-23-08, 02:52 PM**

By the way, here are shot of the winter mountain from this morning. There were only a few very light roller marks that I could see, along with the texture variations and the wall warts.

**wbassett** · **07-23-08, 04:29 PM**

Quote:

tweakophyte wrote:

Is that for me? What is it and how would I use it?

Liner paper is used to cover rough walls or things like cinder blocks, groved paneling or other surfaces with imperfections prior to painting. It works like a charm. Check the link out, if I can make a screen out of that wall, then you'll have no problems at all!

Of course if you want to get a substrate to paint that's also a very easy solution, but if you want to use the wall check into Liner paper. Home Depot doesn't have it, at least not my local Home Depots, but Lowes does.

**tweakophyte** · **07-23-08, 05:04 PM**

Ahhh... I remember reading that thread. It does seem it would add another layer of PIA to the process for me. Using the wallpaper paste is scary enough, but then that air-bubble thing would freak me out.

Btw, I bought a whole thing of that red DAP to do what you say in that thread and still have imperfections. At least it is threatening to rain, so my humidity level might be reasonable... it has been scary dry here.

Thanks for the idea.

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