Black Widow PFG - the Discussion - Black Widow

[tweakophyte]

mechman wrote:

Tweak,

I'd hazard a guess that the humidity did in fact cause a lot of the problems. Gumminess? Was the previous coat fully dried?

As for that texture, can you see it while you are seated? That's all that matters. It doesn't matter that you can see it from a few feet away, just how it looks when you're seated.

I believe it was. It had been 24 hours, but it might have been getting damp via the carpet cleaning humidity.

From seating distance you can see what I believe to be issues caused by the texture. It is what it is... I'm going to rest a week or so, but may try the liner paper. Since I'm our of BW I'll need to get some more AAA anyway.

[tweakophyte]

By the way, the colors are much richer (again). I'm very happy with the paint. My first try on the doable was (near) perfect. Too bad that project did not vet out.

Mech, I'm not too worried about the mark. I could DAP it and sand it, then paint over it, but I'm leaving it for now.

[tweakophyte]

Hi-

I will likely be sucking it up and going for BW on another substrate. My BW painting exerience on Doable was near-perfect... nice and smooth, no roller marks, etc. How easy is it to work with the liner paper? How smooth is it? Is it similar to doable in terms of surface texture?

Do you think I'd be better off mounting a substrate like doable or thrifty white harboard (the shiny tile board) to the wall instead? I was thinking I could mount those with some kind of masstick-like glue (liquid nails, etc). That could still cause other issues, of course.

My concerns with the liner paper is that
- I have never used wallpaper paste
- I will need to smooth out the joint, so I still have risk of screwing it up
- I'll still need to fill in some minor imperfections
- I am not familiar with how the liner paper will work with painting.

Thoughts?

[wbassett]

If you have thrifty board or Do-Able (Some people would kill to be able to get a sheet of Do-Able!) and you don't require a screen larger than what a sheet of that would provide... and you have no adversions to mounting it on the wall (I'd recommend french cleats) then I'd go that route. It will definitely be easier that's for sure.

Exactly how uneven is your wall? I have plaster in an old house which always cracks over long periods, so I had no choice. If you don't want to go with another substrate, can you do a skim coat of drywall mud over the intended screen area to smooth things out and get rid of any low spots?

[tweakophyte]

The wall is basically new drywall that did not have a full skim coat on it. They painted it a thick coat of primer. Via me painting it, smoothing it, sanding it (pulling paint off), and repeating ad nausea for the MMud it developed inconsitentcies.

I could go for another skim coat, but I'd probably have to bring in some help. I'm tired of sanding the wall, too and by now there are many layers of paint and primer.

The french cleat method sounds good, too. My problem there is I do not have a table saw to make the 45 deg. cut. How have people been mounting the cleat to doable?

Now that I think of it, how have people been mounting TWH to the wall with liquid nails? Are they just putting up a support to rest the substrate on while the glue sets? Thoughts? (I think I need to pull up a MMan thread.)

In terms of size, I would go the full 89" wide and probably keep the full height. That would give me the most flexibility in terms of placement of the picture and how I might mask it. The wall is already painted BW color, so I don't think I am going for a distinct screen color. I don't see myself painting the rest of the wall black or putting treatments on there.

[mechman]

Tweak,

You can pick up french cleats at HD or Lowes. I believe they're in the hardware department. I'm uncertain if it's actually called a french cleat there though. It may be just called a heavy duty cleat.

[wbassett]

Tritonman actually used carpet runners and they worked great. Check his thread of his laminate screen build... a very similar application so it would work for you too.

The Hangman cleat is real nice because you can get them with a built in level. That way there's no guess work whether it's straight or not. Hint: If the plum is straight but it looks off, chances are the house isn't plum!

My house is around 150-160 years old and that happened to me. I put a shelf up for my wife and the level shows it is perfectly level, but when you look at it the stupid thing looks slightly off! Sounds like you have a newer house so that shouldn't be a problem for you.

Oh, another nice thing about the French cleats is that you have a little bit of wiggle room too as far as moving the screen left or right. That way if it's not perfect with the projected image, you can move it a little. I think you'll fall in love with French cleats!

[tweakophyte]

Yes, the house is 7 years new... and the basement even newer.

You know... I'm looking at my wall and just wishing the pull of the paint had not created such an extreme texture.

I am going to ask a question that has already been asked... What if I wanted to give it another shot and sand down a little of that texture. Do you guys like that yellow, 320 grit sanding sheet (like a 5"x5" thin pad) or one of those sanding sponge things? Do you prefer wet or dry when using it? Btw, I got into trouble last time with a sanding pad that was too wet and pulled the paint.

The main question is do you think it's worth it to sand and try again? I'd like to avoid resorting to a skim coat.

(PS... my AAA will be here on Monday.)

[mechman]

Tweak,

I got the Doable sample today! Thanks!

As for the sanding, I hate it! I'd do anything to avoid it. But that's me. I believe that your last attempt would have been a success had everything not lined up against you - the carpet cleaning and the rain. The texture that you showed in those pictures wasn't that bad in my book. But I've only painted panels and my laminate.

The big question is if it's screwed up again do you want to re-do it? Me? I'd go get another sheet of Doable. It's only $10 isn't it?

[tweakophyte]

mechman wrote:

Tweak,

I got the Doable sample today! Thanks!

I told you I'd get to it eventually... I was going to ping you on Monday. By the way, the other sample is my BW... How'd I do? Let me know how they spec out.

------------

I watched some shows last night and had a calibration session... using Avia I turned my contrast way up and brightness way down on my Panny AX200u. Does that seem right? I am really enjoying this paint. I was concerned about it being "too grey", but now I wonder why you guys are spending your time trying to find a lighter version of BW.

Besides the environmental issues that contributed to the gumminess, I think I might have over worked the paint a little, too. Some of the high spots from the gummy roller texture have sparklies. It feels like I can see that one spec of aluminum that I worked to the surface.

I also realize that I really like the look of my screen wall being all wall. It is a really clean look, imo. That is why I want to avoid putting another laminate or other material up... and that is why I am thinking of sanding "just one more time" and putting another BW coat on. Btw, now that the whole screen wall area is covered with BW, the areas that are not in the beam of the PJ are SUPERBLACK, so I get that enhanced contrast feeling without having to put up any velvet.

That brings me back to my question...
Since my goal is to remove the rough spots created by the paint, what should I use to sand and what should I expect by sanding? Should I wet sand, and if so, how do I not get the paint wet and pull it off?

[tweakophyte]

PS... Doable is inexpensive... now up to about $16. It can be a pain to find a decent sheet and haul it home and downstairs. Then I'd have to mount it and again, I am really liking the all-wall look.

[Harpmaker]

Keeping in mind I have never done this. If I were to sand a painted wall to level it for painting, I would use a 220 grit drywall screen (available at Lowe's and HD) and would try it without water to start with. Regular sandpaper will load (gum up) too fast and you would have to use a lot of it.

Even if the 220 grit seems to leave too course a surface for painting, I would still use it to do the bulk of the leveling and then switch over to 320 grit paper just to smooth the wall for painting.

Use sanding blocks; just using your hand would probably do more harm than good as far as leveling a surface goes. You might be able to get away with using a 320 grit sponge at the end, but as a rule soft-backed sanding techniques (just your hand, or a sponge) and FLAT surfaces don't go together.

Go slow and have as much ventilation as possible during the sanding. A bit of water on the wall while sanding would help with the dust, but I don't know how it would affect the wall.

Breathing protection is a MUST!!! I personally, would invest in a good respirator (looks like the bottom half of a gas mask, about $30) and not use the "hospital mask" type.

[tweakophyte]

Hi Harp-

Do sanding screens come in any finer grades? It feels like 220 grit is aggressive for me just wanting to hit the high spots of the paint. I'm listening, but paranoid the 220 will put me in a situation where I need to prime or skim again before I put the next coat of BW on. Will I need to buy a sanding screen appartus too?

I do want to get this right, so please push back.

[Harpmaker]

tweakophyte wrote:

Hi Harp-

Do sanding screens come in any finer grades? It feels like 220 grit is aggressive for me just wanting to hit the high spots of the paint. I'm listening, but paranoid the 220 will put me in a situation where I need to prime or skim again before I put the next coat of BW on. Will I need to buy a sanding screen appartus too?

I do want to get this right, so please push back.

No problem; as I said, I never sanded a painted wall (or even drywall), but I did sand a test piece of BW Winter Mist/HE558 5:1 to help Riff with his project. I used standard sandpaper (which loaded as I said above) and *I* thought 220 grit looked about right; anything courser left scratches I didn't think would fill with a coat of paint. I also tried a 320 grit sanding sponge I had handy (wasn't going for flat ) and the surface of the paint (I was trying to not sand through to the primer) actually began to look polished, it was getting a shine to it that the paint didn't have before.

To be on the safe side, you could start sanding with 320 grit paper (no, drywall screens don't come any finer than 220 grit that I know of) and if YOU think you could benefit from a duller surface, then go to the 220 grit screen, or 220 grit sandpaper (depending on how much you are going to sand).

If you do try the sanding screen, it might be a good idea to have a scrap piece of wood handy to sand with the screen first. The idea is that a new screen (even holds true for most sandpapers) will have sharper corners on the individual pieces of grit and sanding something for a few moments will knock them down to their "normal" cutting ability - otherwise they might leave deeper scratches than you would expect from 220 grit. This actually applies to any grit of paper.

To be fair, and so you know where I'm coming from; I use 220 screen in finishing hard maple Celtic harps. It is the last step in sanding the bare wood and the first step after applying the first coat of nitrocellulose lacquer. The drywall screen was something I discovered while taking the harpmaking course and it was the answer to a problem my instructor had been trying to solve for years! After nitro lacquer has been sprayed it dries to the touch in a very short period of time, and can be lightly sanded in several hours (thought it won't fully harden for up to several weeks!). The problem is that while lacquer is still in it's "plastic" stage it wants to "pill" when sanded with regular sandpaper. Not only does it tend to load sandpaper rapidly, but the "sanding dust" wads together to form little balls that get between the paper and the lacquer surface and the cutting action all but stops. It's a royal mess. The sanding screen solved that problem! Any pills that form just fall through the holes in the screen. The 220 grit screen is used between coats of lacquer to knock down any dust nubs or whatever that settles on the lacquer before it dries. After the lacquer is thick enough (about 10-12 coats) it is sanded with finer and finer grades of paper and then finally buffed to a high gloss finish with a buffing wheel.

I don't think you would have to use the regular screen-holder. I would just wrap a screen around a piece of 2x4 or other flat, solid hand-holdable object.

Obviously, if you're not going to be sanding enough to create a lot of dust you wouldn't need the respirator I mentioned before; but it wouldn't hurt.

[tweakophyte]

I got the sanding screen and tried it on my test panel, which I use to roll off excess paint when I am rolling. I think I will try it on my screen-wall late this week. Depending on how that goes, and if I can resist over sanding, I'll go for a "final" coat of BW.

Anyone think I should prime one more time after sanding?

[mechman]

I wouldn't bother priming again.

Here's the numbers for your original BW on doable. Figured I throw them out there for all to see!

190 191 189
0.313 0.332 51.9
77.2 -0.72 0.88
6447.2

46 degrees away from 6503! And it required no syringes! That's what I'm talking about!

[tweakophyte]

I got 2 new bottles of AAA yesterday. Anyone notice the labeling has changed? It still says 4000 series on the bottle, water based and fine, but it is mostly black. I'm wondering if I got really old bottles or really new bottles.

I should also note that where it says "aluminum" it is black and white, not grey, and the other labels lack the rainbow colors in the text.

[Harpmaker]

tweakophyte wrote:

I got 2 new bottles of AAA yesterday. Anyone notice the labeling has changed? It still says 4000 series on the bottle, water based and fine, but it is mostly black. I'm wondering if I got really old bottles or really new bottles.

I should also note that where it says "aluminum" it is black and white, not grey, and the other labels lack the rainbow colors in the text.

Any chance of some photos of this?

[Harpmaker]

There is a guy over at "the other place" from Germany than wants to know if there is a paint brand/color he can get that is close to Bermuda Beige? The closest he has found is Dulux Elysée at about 249, 215, 190. He can get AAA locally!