Black Widow PFG - the Discussion

**benven** · **02-01-08, 12:02 PM**

Quote:

wbassett wrote:

From what I see you're only using .27 ounces of the Pearl Silver for a quart of the main mix. That's why you don't see a color shifting. That's less than 1% of the entire main mix. The other 'popular' pearl/poly topcoating mix uses 2-4 ounces of craft grade mica. That's 6-12% of the entire mix, and a significant difference. And if you agree that is a big difference, BW PFG uses a whopping 20% of the aluminum component for a 40oz mix. I'm positive if we had 20% mica/pearl in any mix it would be unwatchable.

As far as aluminum over mica- One is a non-interference, the other an interference method, which is another factor and why I was so interested in it.

With lighter colors micas are a bit more forgiving but color shifting is still there. When things go darker color shifts are more apparent.

This is just a fact of what mica (pearls) do. It's why they are used by artists. Non-interference materials are opaque and do not allow light to pass through them, so the light is not refracted. Mica is a trade off that's been used for years. It makes for a brighter image, but causes color shifting. Aluminum (non-interference) also creates a brighter image but doesn't have the classice mica rainbow color shift effect.

Thanks Bill. I guess I should have explained myself a bit better. I should have stated....what is the difference between aluminum and silver mica when put into a paint mix or media? The refractive properties of coated mica flakes and the reflective properties of aluminum must change. I have no scientific proof of this. But using common sense, when mica flakes are mixed into a paint or some other media, how do their properties change? The refractive properties would have to b e different? mech has stated he did not see the prism effect with the mica powders I have used. I assume the reflective properties of the aluminum flakes change. Maybe this requires more discussion/investigation.

And yes, my bad mech, I shouldn't have hijacked this thread

**wbassett** · **02-01-08, 12:21 PM**

Quote:

Harpmaker wrote:

Thanks for the reply Bill. I want to be clear that I'm not being argumentative either, really, I'm just trying to understand this correctly.

Great treatise on iridescence!

Perhaps Texas Instruments is simplifying the matter too much, but their explanation of how a single-chip DLP projector works ( http://www.dlp.com/tech/what.aspx ) says, in both text and graphic, that the DLP chip is struck by only red, green and blue light (the light that passes through the color filters on the color wheel), thus only red green and blue light hits our screens using such a PJ, and only one color at a time. It is the "persistence of vision" of our eyes that makes us see the full visible light spectrum. As I'm sure you know, it is the same phenomenon that lets us watch a CRT television without seeing the even and odd scan fields, but rather one image that doesn't flicker.

If what T.I. says is true, I don't understand how iridescence can come into play with such a PJ.

You have MUCH more experience with this stuff than I do, and if you say iridescence is a problem I believe you.

The next time I have my PJ in my "lab" I'll do some testing and see if I can work this out so I finally "get it".

What they say is true but you have to keep in mind we see a complex image that is produced by the projector. In order to see the image and colors, mirrors are turned on and off to control the pixels, and the color wheel sends the light. To get a color other than red, blue, or green it rapidly passes light through different color segments. Our eyes combine it into the 'color'.

The reason I talked about iridescence was you asked about the prism effect of mica. I see what you were getting at now though.

I really don't think the type of screen you are talking about is feasable, and definitely not by any DIY means that I know of. I suppose a person could play with Red, Green, and Blue transparant films laid over top of each other, but I'm not sure how well that would work. Translating transparant sheets to a translucent paint would bext to impossible to control the outcome on our level.

Also it seems like this type of screen if it worked would be exclusive to DLP projectors would it not?

Might make an interesting thread if you want to start one up and check into it.

**wbassett** · **02-01-08, 12:45 PM**

Quote:

benven wrote:

Thanks Bill. I guess I should have explained myself a bit better. I should have stated....what is the difference between aluminum and silver mica when put into a paint mix or media? The refractive properties of coated mica flakes and the reflective properties of aluminum must change. I have no scientific proof of this. But using common sense, when mica flakes are mixed into a paint or some other media, how do their properties change? The refractive properties would have to b e different? mech has stated he did not see the prism effect with the mica powders I have used. I assume the reflective properties of the aluminum flakes change. Maybe this requires more discussion/investigation.

And yes, my bad mech, I shouldn't have hijacked this thread

One thing to note is the Micro Pearl seems to be a much finer size of flakes as compared to the craft paint pearls. I think that is the biggest factor right there, better quality.

Even mixed in paint, unless the paint is a heavy clay based paint, or loaded with Ti02, it will have some translucent properties to it, at least on the outer surface. If it didn't, then it would just cover the mica and what would be the benefit of mica, aluminum or anything mixed with the paint itself? But paint does allow light to penetrate to a point. Aluminum will reflect the light back without any of it passing through the aluminum flake. Mica is translucent and allows light to pass through it, and when the light passes through the mica it gets refracted. That's what causes the sparkles of colors we see.

I think if a major amount of micro pearl were used then you would start seeing the iridescent effect begin. Like I said, I believe it's because this is a finer particle size that is the real key.

Can you see from the 10X shot of the Pearl Silver though that if that was added at a higher concentration than what you used color separation definitely would show up? Not a slam or anything, just my observations. Ben I am almost thinking you could drop the Pearl Silver from the main mix and not even notice. That might be a topic for the CG thread though.

There are some companies that make a Ti02 coated mica, but honestly, I'm not really sure what the benefit of that is over getting a high quality paint that is already rich Ti02.

**Harpmaker** · **02-01-08, 01:46 PM**

Hi Bill,

You're misunderstanding me, but rather than continue to talk about this in this thread I'll start a new one.

**sharkane** · **02-07-08, 07:46 PM**

So look for that to be coming in the next few weeks... the prototype worked, so now it's time to build the real McCoy.[/quote]

Hi, wbassett. I been away from this forum for several months while researching and trying to organize the purchase of my first projector. Hopefully my Epson Powerlite HC 1080UB should be coming in today.

I've been trying to decide how to go screenwise (since I can't afford to buy a manufactured one) and have been intrigued by the notions of Wilsonart laminate, pvc vinyl and painting.

As an American currently living in Australia I do find that much of the great advice given on these fourms is not really applicable to me with regards to material availablity.

If my Epson can handle it, I would like to build a screen 12 to 14 foot wide which, if the projection calculator on Projector Central is correct, would give me a screen height of between 6.7 and 8 feet.

I can get Wilsonart laminates here but the biggest size is 12 ft. by 5 ft. (too small for my screen.)

I looked into the pvc vinyl from Dazian but for the size I want I would be paying about $1400 plus the shipping cost from New Jersey to Sydney Australia.

Suddenly a sheetrock wall painted white or this aluminum is looking pretty good.

Which brings me to Black Widow PFG. Some questions for you, if you don't mind.

What are you guys painting this on to. The Wilsonart laminate?
Sheetrock? Canvas?

I will re-read these forums posts, but since most of your successful results seem very product specific, it may be that I'm back to square one or reduced to expensive experimentation myself. (or have my friends in L.A. ship those massive paint cans to me).

Thanks, wbassett and I look forward to seeing how the new screen build turns out.

Kane

**wbassett** · **02-07-08, 08:06 PM**

Welcome to the Shack kane!

I wouldn't paint laminate, it's just too expensive to use as a substrate. Other than that, anything you can paint you can apply this to.

Can you get either Henry HE558 down there or Creatix Auto Air Aluminum fine? That's really the key, if you can get it. Dick Blick sells AA Aluminum, but I don't know if they ship to Australia, but don't see why they would not. if you can get it, next question is what brands of paints do you have available, or can your local stores call up color matches for Sherwin Williams or True Value? If not, could they contact them and ask for the color code?

**sharkane** · **02-07-08, 09:08 PM**

Hi, Bill.

I'll have to see what's available here. I haven't been off the computer since I first read this thread.

Hardware store can do matches so if I can't get the actual products I can get the color codes from here and match it.

As Mech or you or one of the others said, my best bet is probably to see how the Epson looks on my white wall first.

Off to call the audio store about my projector. It's been two weeks since i ordered it. epson says no problems with supply, but I don't know why it's taking so long since there are only 12 outlets in the whole country.

As Prof. says "Home theatre....the never ending story."

I'll let you know what I find out.

Kane

**mechman** · **02-07-08, 09:59 PM**

Kane,

I know that <^..^>Smokey Joe is researching aluminum a bit in New Zealand. You may want to pm him.

mech

**Prof.** · **02-07-08, 10:25 PM**

Hi Kane and welcome on two counts..

Katoomba is nice country...watch out for the bushfires though!!..

Stealing my motto eh!!...

I'm also looking at the possibility of making up a Black Widow, but as you mentioned none of the brands suggested are available here..

My feeling is that we will have to find a close base paint, perhaps getting a US paint matched to a local colour..and then experimenting with various silvers of local brands (none of the mentioned ones being available here again) using standard paints, craft paints, artists paints etc..

**Prof.** · **02-07-08, 10:29 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Kane,

I know that <^..^>Smokey Joe is researching aluminum a bit in New Zealand. You may want to pm him.

mech

Mech..Paints that are available in New Zealand are rarely available in all States of Australia!

**wbassett** · **02-07-08, 10:33 PM**

Prof/Kane... Dick Blick does ship over seas, granted it would probably cost four times what the Auto Air costs though

The other question would be... would they send aluminum paint and would it clear customs?

**Prof.** · **02-07-08, 10:47 PM**

Short answer Bill...NO..
As I mentioned recently, you can't ship any canned paints into Aus. or post between States in Aus., without a special permit, reserved for importers and distributors..
Within Australia, you can road deliver paints between States but it can get expensive for just a couple of cans..

Kane who is in New South Wales and me in South Australia, would need to be able to access the same brands of paint to maintain the correct colour base, plus the same alum. additive..

**cynical2** · **02-08-08, 04:15 PM**

Quote:

Prof. wrote:

Short answer Bill...NO..
As I mentioned recently, you can't ship any canned paints into Aus. or post between States in Aus., without a special permit, reserved for importers and distributors..
Within Australia, you can road deliver paints between States but it can get expensive for just a couple of cans..

Kane who is in New South Wales and me in South Australia, would need to be able to access the same brands of paint to maintain the correct colour base, plus the same alum. additive..

Prof, here's an Australian place to get Auto Air...it ain't cheap at about $40 (+shipping, I assume)...but should be enough for 2 screens. Maybe you and Kane could split it (if it's cost effective to mail paint to each other)???

**<^..^>Smokey Joe** · **02-08-08, 09:17 PM**

Out of interest I have just received some aluminium raw product in several forms.

My initial tests have shown that because it is so powerful there is no need for a pre tinted product. ie using white with the raw ali I have pulled it down below N7 range(visual). I am current at aprox 5% product with white base resulting with a level aprox N8~N9.

I have yet to do some spectrum readings, if I get time this weekend I'll post the results.

Looking to have some potential already.

**Prof.** · **02-08-08, 09:42 PM**

Quote:

cynical2 wrote:

Prof, here's an Australian place to get Auto Air...it ain't cheap at about $40 (+shipping, I assume)...but should be enough for 2 screens. Maybe you and Kane could split it (if it's cost effective to mail paint to each other)???

WOW!!!...Thanks for that Bill..and they are based in Adealide!!

Which of the three types would you recommend?..I presume the fine one..

I take it that you're mixing it with the base colour, so it could still be rolled on?

I will be doing a trip to Adelaide shortly to pick up a few things, so I could get it at the same time and save on the freight cost..

Thanks again for that.

**Prof.** · **02-08-08, 09:55 PM**

I just looked back at one of your earlier posts and I see you say to use the fine, so that answers my question about that..

Now all we need is the right white base colour, either of the shelf here or an acurate mix formula..

**cynical2** · **02-08-08, 11:43 PM**

Quote:

Prof. wrote:

WOW!!!...Thanks for that Bill..and they are based in Adealide!!

Which of the three types would you recommend?..I presume the fine one..

I take it that you're mixing it with the base colour, so it could still be rolled on?

I will be doing a trip to Adelaide shortly to pick up a few things, so I could get it at the same time and save on the freight cost..

Thanks again for that.

Hey, wait a minute...I'm not Bill!

Not that I mind you confusing the two of us, but he may take it as an insult.

Anyway, I'm glad that helps! I'll step back and let Bill and mech take it from here, as far as what you should use for the base, etc. I know mech is still doing a lot of testing with it...not sure if there's a final recommendation as to what base works best.

BTW, are there any brands on easyRGB.com that you can get Down Under?

Jim

**mechman** · **02-09-08, 06:37 AM**

Quote:

<^..^>Smokey Joe wrote:

Out of interest I have just received some aluminium raw product in several forms.

My initial tests have shown that because it is so powerful there is no need for a pre tinted product. ie using white with the raw ali I have pulled it down below N7 range(visual). I am current at aprox 5% product with white base resulting with a level aprox N8~N9.

I have yet to do some spectrum readings, if I get time this weekend I'll post the results.

Looking to have some potential already.

I have some raw aluminum powder as well. I found that it acts as the Auto Air does, blue push. And then there's the whole problem of taking advantage of the aluminum - not coating it with paint, getting it to the surface.

It'll be good to see your results!

mech

**mechman** · **02-09-08, 06:39 AM**

Quote:

Prof. wrote:

I just looked back at one of your earlier posts and I see you say to use the fine, so that answers my question about that..

Now all we need is the right white base colour, either of the shelf here or an acurate mix formula..

Prof.

Keep an eye on the Further Investigations thread. That's where all my work with Auto Air Aluminum is being documented.

mech

**Prof.** · **02-09-08, 09:41 PM**

Quote:

cynical2 wrote:

Hey, wait a minute...I'm not Bill!

Not that I mind you confusing the two of us, but he may take it as an insult.

Anyway, I'm glad that helps! I'll step back and let Bill and mech take it from here, as far as what you should use for the base, etc. I know mech is still doing a lot of testing with it...not sure if there's a final recommendation as to what base works best.

BTW, are there any brands on easyRGB.com that you can get Down Under?

Jim

I do apologize for that oversight Jim...and I pass on my thanks to you..

I checked the esyRGB site and didn't find any brands that are available down here...

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