Black Widow PFG - the Discussion - Black Widow

**Prof.** · **01-20-08, 09:46 PM**

Quote:

wbassett wrote:

That opens a whole can of worms!

Guessing that is...

We will have gain readings done but mech's waiting on his block of reference magnesium.

Augh..Go-on you guys, be a

take a wild stab

**mechman** · **01-21-08, 10:44 AM**

Quote:

Prof. wrote:

Augh..Go-on you guys, be a

take a wild stab

Anywhere from 0.8 to 2.0!

mech

**wbassett** · **01-21-08, 10:51 AM**

Prof I will say seriously that there is some viewing cone so that means there is gain, but how much, we can't say right now until it's tested.

**tradewinds** · **01-21-08, 11:45 AM**

Great jobs guys and thank you. I assume an Designer White substrate will work for this or are you using something else that is better recommended? Thanks.

**mechman** · **01-21-08, 12:19 PM**

I used hardboard for my panels. I believe muzz painted his wall. Don't quote me on that though!

mech

**tradewinds** · **01-21-08, 02:54 PM**

wow, I checked all the places listed on Henry's site and no one around me here even know's about this manufacturer. If anyone plans on buying these in bulk and willing to ship, let me know. Thanks.

Seems the minimum is 1 gallon

**benven** · **01-21-08, 03:44 PM**

It would be interesting to make up some PFG with the Auto Air Aluminum (AAA

) product. I still have some left over. Although, I would have to use the Behr 4850 white paint as the base. This paint is awesome guys. I think it would be as good if not better than the other white paints you have tried. The good thing about using the AAA is it does help with spraying as it was designed to be sprayed. Just a thought, Or is that 2 thoughts?

**<^..^>Smokey Joe** · **01-21-08, 03:49 PM**

Looking good guys, with the correct measurements of importance now being done it shows how good and how bad some early work was.

The most colour uniform screens have a unity gain of one. The moment you have gain you risk colour shifts off axis and in some cases on axis. ie a wide 35degree viewing angle and a high gain will appear non uniform across the width.

The spectrum for a perfect screen is perfectly flat. For those unaware, these spectrum readings are how the material responds to light as radiation. The material or surface needs to equally absorb or reflect the viewable spectrum no matter what the source.

The PFG screen spectrum looks good, however being a perfectionist I think some areas need attention. The result from the mix appears to create a curve, convex in relation to the reflected light. Slightly more dropoff at the Blue end of the spectrum.
The issue of this is because of how a PJ creates it's light and reflected difference at different percentage luminances. Ie creating the 11 point black to white ramp.
Because the PJ spectrum of light is lumpy in nature (even at D65) the effect of a non flat spectral surface is minor shifts in peceived colour balance as the PJ stimulas is raised and lowered. In effect with the Blue end spectral reflective response dropping away the perceived center weight of seen blue colour will shift to the left and right as the simulas ramps up and down.
It is our perception of the resulting colour shift that is important.

The base shade of TV mist is possibly too flat and/or the 588 has a minor convex curve to it which is hard to see. I suspect the 588. To compensate have a look for a shade which is slightly high Blue, low Green and high Red. B230,G228,R230 for example.
If you get the idea a slight concave nature.
The resulting spectrum mix with the 588 would in theory result in a flatter appearence.

teehee another 20 hours homework for Mech

**tradewinds** · **01-21-08, 04:05 PM**

Reading the Henry 558 PDF docs said it replaces ProGrade #818 AquaBrite and Henry #229 Aluminum Emulsion. I wonder if those are easier to obtain and if it is the same product?

**Prof.** · **01-21-08, 05:15 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Anywhere from 0.8 to 2.0!

mech

Good one Mech..

**Harpmaker** · **01-21-08, 05:20 PM**

Quote:

tradewinds wrote:

Great jobs guys and thank you. I assume an Designer White substrate will work for this or are you using something else that is better recommended? Thanks.

When I sprayed my Black Widow mixes the first time, I used some TWH (melamine coated hardboard); the second round I used regular hardboard that had been primed with Kilz 2. The Kilz 2 primed HB gives slightly brighter colors in my limited testing, but this could also be due to a change of spraying technique for that panel as well. The paint sticks to Kilz 2 MUCH better than to the TWH, and I would suspect the same would hold true for the laminate.

The bottom line is you can spray your DW if you want to. I don't know about rolling.

H.

**Prof.** · **01-21-08, 05:21 PM**

Quote:

wbassett wrote:

Prof I will say seriously that there is some viewing cone so that means there is gain, but how much, we can't say right now until it's tested.

Aaah...Now we're talking..
So we are definitely talking higher than 1.0..A little viewing cone loss wont bother me..

**mechman** · **01-21-08, 05:36 PM**

Quote:

<^..^>Smokey Joe wrote:

teehee another 20 hours homework for Mech

Have you met my wife? She wants to meet you.... well not so much meet....

On a serious note, we did try what you proposed with Violet Disguise - 239 236 240. If you go and look at the master list it gave us fits! All three of us (Bill, Jim, and myself) thought it would be ideal, and yet it failed...

mech

**mechman** · **01-21-08, 05:38 PM**

Quote:

Prof. wrote:

Aaah...Now we're talking..
So we are definitely talking higher than 1.0..A little viewing cone loss wont bother me..

But my reference white showed up a few minutes ago!

mech

**mechman** · **01-21-08, 05:44 PM**

Quote:

tradewinds wrote:

wow, I checked all the places listed on Henry's site and no one around me here even know's about this manufacturer. If anyone plans on buying these in bulk and willing to ship, let me know. Thanks.

Seems the minimum is 1 gallon

Yep. We're not happy about that, but what can we do? We had originally thought that we could buy a bunch of this stuff and sell it at cost to members. But that opens us up to tax issues and a whole slew of other issues. However if someone were to buy a gallon, I'm sure they could find some folks willing to buy the excess from them at cost. You could always label it as BBQ sauce when you ship it!

mech

**mechman** · **01-21-08, 05:51 PM**

Quote:

benven wrote:

It would be interesting to make up some PFG with the Auto Air Aluminum (AAA

) product. I still have some left over. Although, I would have to use the Behr 4850 white paint as the base. This paint is awesome guys. I think it would be as good if not better than the other white paints you have tried. The good thing about using the AAA is it does help with spraying as it was designed to be sprayed. Just a thought, Or is that 2 thoughts?

Believe it or not Ben, I'm still putzing on this stuff! That's the one down side to owning the spectro! LOL! Rather than make Bill or Jim mix it up and send it out it's easier just for me to be the tinkerer. Bill and Jim are the idea guys. I'm their soldier!

But I am tinkering with some other things that have been tried before and some that haven't. Where they'll lead us...

But I do know this. I have a heckuva lot of respect for you guys who've done this without a spectro! You guys are amazing and my hat is off to you!

mech

**<^..^>Smokey Joe** · **01-21-08, 06:30 PM**

Mech ahhh didnt see that in the list before, I see ....interesting.

I have found some local brand Silver metallic and aluminium testpots in the garage from earlier experiments. My silver Metallic is lighter than the 588, I through some into some white and Magnolia(a violet tinted white)at 4:1 ratio and so far in mix pots is looking ok.

Have to wait to the base coats(white) dry and go hard, a day or so, before I apply some mix.

Oh I have already experimented a whiles ago with layers and light penetration.
Your base shade adds to the combined spectrum as light will hit 5 layers of paint and return. I feel you should always do atleast 2~3 base coats and 2 topcoats.
A consideration not to be forgottern and maybe a way to tweak total result

**mechman** · **01-21-08, 08:30 PM**

Well I'm at 2 coats of Kilz2, 1 coat of EF08, 1 coat of Kilz2, and 2 coats of WM5:1. I've got six coats... the stuff was giving us fits for trying to find a match.

mech

**benven** · **01-22-08, 07:35 AM**

Quote:

<^..^>Smokey Joe wrote:

The most colour uniform screens have a unity gain of one. The moment you have gain you risk colour shifts off axis and in some cases on axis. ie a wide 35degree viewing angle and a high gain will appear non uniform across the width.

The spectrum for a perfect screen is perfectly flat. For those unaware, these spectrum readings are how the material responds to light as radiation. The material or surface needs to equally absorb or reflect the viewable spectrum no matter what the source.

Hi Smokey, does your statement also hold true for gray screens? Yes, gray is a shade of white. For instance, if you start off with a white paint that has unity gain, ie a Lambertian surface. You then add a pigment or pigment free particles to it to get a shade of gray. You are "absorbing" more light than reflecting. ie a non Lambertian surface. Therefore, your gain automatically goes down and you have a gain of less than 1. That is unless you add "gain" to them to bring them up to 1. In which case, even though you have a measured gain of 1 you needed a little boost to get there. So, are you risking colour shifts with most gray screens?
We won't even talk about off axis viewing because a gray screen with gain, IMO, ins't all that great off axis. That's part of the reason I ditched CGIII, gain of 1.8, for a lower gain, lighter shade of gray screen.

**bidzer** · **01-22-08, 08:55 AM**

What is the best material to use the PFG on? Should I buy a tileboard from Lowes? I have a polywall screen now with Behr Silverscreen. I just ordered a SP-7210 and I'm worried that the Silverscreen will be too dark for it.

Thanks

**tradewinds** · **01-22-08, 09:00 AM**

Something strange.....I contacted DoItBest.com and here is the reply:

Quote:

Greetings

Thank you for shopping doitbest.com! Unfortunately, I was unable to
locate that item in our system. I apologize for any inconvenience.
Please let me know if I can be of further assistance. Have a great
week!

xxxx xxxxx
doitbest.com

xxxx.xxxx@doitbest.com

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 4:13 PM
To: products@doitbest.com
Subject: Henry 558 Aluminum Roof Coating

Hi,
I saw on your website you carry Henry 555, however I need Henry 558
Aluminum Roof Coating. Please advise if you are able to ship this
product.

Thank you.

I have a contact number Home Depot gave me to somewhere in my state (non Home Depot), I'll call and see what they can do.

**tradewinds** · **01-22-08, 10:00 AM**

Also, which of the base would be better to get, LW or WM? I couldn't help but notice that the WM comes closer to 65K and seems to have a more balance curve. Am I just looking into this too much on something I would not notice at all between using LW or WM?

Thanks.

**bidzer** · **01-22-08, 10:30 AM**

Winter Mist/Dice 5:1 looks like a good one to me as well. I ould just like to find out what the best material to put this on other than my wall :-)

**wbassett** · **01-22-08, 11:20 AM**

Quote:

bidzer wrote:

What is the best material to use the PFG on? Should I buy a tileboard from Lowes? I have a polywall screen now with Behr Silverscreen. I just ordered a SP-7210 and I'm worried that the Silverscreen will be too dark for it.

Thanks

Polywall will work. I would prime it first even though you already have SS on it. you want to start with a clean white base anytime you start a new project.

If you don't want to reuse your polywall, then yeah anything will work, hard board, MDF... whatever you feel comfortable with.

What is the lumen rating of the SP-7210?

**wbassett** · **01-22-08, 11:35 AM**

Quote:

tradewinds wrote:

Also, which of the base would be better to get, LW or WM? I couldn't help but notice that the WM comes closer to 65K and seems to have a more balance curve. Am I just looking into this too much on something I would not notice at all between using LW or WM?

Thanks.

Both those 'curves' really are very flat compared to other things out there. the 5:1 Winter Mist version comes in as neutral, and the 4:1 Luminous White is a very close near neutral. Further out would be what we'd call 'Acceptable' and then outside that zone would be questionable or unusable methods. Both of these are well within specs for a screen.

So yes, LW would be perfectly fine to use and those bumps are partly the software that made the chart. I'm not saying it's is a laser flat straight line and the software screwed it up, just that with different graphing software you probably wouldn't see 'jaggies' but a smoother line. It still wouldn't be as flat as a surveyor's laser level but trust me these are very flat spectral responses.

Advertisement