Black Widow PFG - the Discussion - Black Widow

**mechman** · **01-23-08, 07:34 PM**

Quote:

rfisher1968 wrote:

Before they released what the materials was I bought some Aluminum paint and mixed up my own variation. It showed some promise so got my spectrophotometer and measured the L a b values and determined I had a blue push. Today I have changed my base to correct for this problem and hope for a near nuetral conclusion. I will gladly share my results if anybody cares.

We're always interested!

mech

**tradewinds** · **01-23-08, 07:37 PM**

My apologies for being ignorant in not understanding some terms, but I saw reference to DICE and Poker in relation to the PFG testing. What is Dice and Poker? Is it the same Henry 558?

**mechman** · **01-23-08, 07:54 PM**

Quote:

tradewinds wrote:

My apologies for being ignorant in not understanding some terms, but I saw reference to DICE and Poker in relation to the PFG testing. What is Dice and Poker? Is it the same Henry 558?

Dice is HE558. Poker was Black Jack.

mech

**Harpmaker** · **01-24-08, 12:58 AM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Dice is HE558. Poker was Black Jack.

mech

"Black Jack is a brand name, they have a number of products. The particular Aluminum paint by black Jack that Wbassett used has been discontinued and all that is available is what is in individual stores inventory. That is why Henry 558 was substituted."

-Page 5,296 of subsection E; Vol. 375 - Encyclopedia Galactica

**tradewinds** · **01-24-08, 09:13 AM**

Got it. So if someone has better luck finding Black Jack (what type?, number?) locally, it would also work I assume or were tests not completed?

Nevertheless, in my area I doubt I will find even that

**wbassett** · **01-24-08, 09:59 AM**

Quote:

tradewinds wrote:

Got it. So if someone has better luck finding Black Jack (what type?, number?) locally, it would also work I assume or were tests not completed?

Nevertheless, in my area I doubt I will find even that

HE558, Black Jack, what mech is working on, or if a base can be found for the Auto Air Aluminum- everything would be an online purchase anyway. (I want to make a note: HE558 is the only officially recommended aluminum right now. It has been tested with the recommended base paints, Black Jack is a discontinued product and the rest haven't been tested or are being tested now)

Even the popular pearl/poly method elsewhere can't be found locally by everyone and lot of people have to order it online. It is an unfortunate step for BW PFG but well worth it. If a person absolutely can't wait then they can go with an OTS neutral gray or white and that will serve them well, and if they want to upgrade later on they can. Or since they will be priming anyway (this would mainly be for new people setting up for the first time though) they could do what I recommend while they are waiting for the aluminum portion to arrive- use the Kilz2 primed screen area as a unity gain white screen, calibrate and get used to their projector and settings for a few days and see what modes they like and don't like and areas they want to see improved. By the time they are done with that they should have their aluminum paint.

Like I said, some people don't want to wait so if they need a screen quick, they can always use an OTS, I'm not abandoning neutral grays at all. They are still excellent screen options. Besides, a first time setup really should take some time calibrating and getting a feel for what the projector looks like on a white screen. For some people they may decide not to go any further, but everyone really should see their projector on a white screen first to get a baseline of its performance. How else can a person know if it's better or not? Better is subjective too... whites will always take a hit on any gray screen, even commercial screens, but blacks and ambient viewing are much better. Some people like pure whites, some like dark blacks, and some have a need to have lights on at times or even watch during the day. Without a baseline, it doesn't matter if it's Black Widow PFG, a simple OTS gray, laminate or commercial screen... how can anyone know if they made an improvement or not?

That always drove me nuts when people would recommend a gray screen to everyone as soon as they 'walked through the door' so to speak. Of course someone that's new to projectors is going to think it looks incredible, especially if they've never seen a real screen or anything other than their projector shooting an image on their cream colored off white wall. If you're interested in Black Widow, we'll try to help you with that, if you're interested in any other method or even a commercial screen we'll try to help a person there too. We're not locked into just this or any one method or screen.

... and you can think of it this way... If a person is buying a commercial screen, unless they have a local HT shop that carries the exact screen they want and has it in stock, they have to wait for that to show up too!

**tonyvdb** · **01-24-08, 10:26 AM**

I just want to say that I tried the suggestions here in this thread and it was very noticeable. I was using Behr paint "silver screen" and thought it was really good but after doing the repaint as described here the picture was noticably better.

**mechman** · **01-24-08, 10:51 AM**

Quote:

tradewinds wrote:

Got it. So if someone has better luck finding Black Jack (what type?, number?) locally, it would also work I assume or were tests not completed?

Nevertheless, in my area I doubt I will find even that

Both Bill and I have been unable to find a 'suitable' mate for Black Jack. Everything tried so far has pushed blue. And then the fact that it is discontinued. And I have no more to test.

I wouldn't recommend it. Stick with HE558.

mech

**wbassett** · **01-24-08, 11:11 AM**

Honestly we only tested two things with Black Jack. Seeing that it was discontinued and whatever is on the shelf is all there is it didn't seem worth spending much time on it. I'm sure we could have found something, but why bother with something that is basically unavailable?

**wbassett** · **01-24-08, 11:15 AM**

Quote:

tonyvdb wrote:

I just want to say that I tried the suggestions here in this thread and it was very noticeable. I was using Behr paint "silver screen" and thought it was really good but after doing the repaint as described here the picture was noticably better.

Tony that's great to hear! Any screen shots by chance?

**bidzer** · **01-24-08, 11:38 AM**

Quote:

tonyvdb wrote:

I just want to say that I tried the suggestions here in this thread and it was very noticeable. I was using Behr paint "silver screen" and thought it was really good but after doing the repaint as described here the picture was noticably better.

I'm in the exact same boat. I have a Polywall Behr Silverscreen screen and wanted to see how much an upgrade the PFG would give me.

I was going to Poly the Silverscreen to see how it performs. Screenshots wold be awesome Tony.

**wbassett** · **01-24-08, 12:48 PM**

Bidzer I've had a UPW screen, Behr Silver Screen, Designer White, SW Gray Screen, a custom gray... and a grunch load of test panels (not as many as mech though!).

Silver Screen does lean a little blue, some are fine with it, some have problems. It also can depend on the store variance too. One thing to point out is even Behr doesn't call this a neutral gray...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trash talking SS, just pointing out even the manufacturer calls it a 'Blue Neutral Family Range' color. (Whatever that is- neutral is not a color, blue is a color

) You have to keep in mind Behr is selling paint for home owners, not a screen paint... and a true gray is considered ugly to most people, so they make it more visually appealing. It's not a bad option and falls within the acceptable DIY screen range, but there are better simple OTS options out there.

Don't go solely on what I say or anyone for that matter, look at everything as a whole and make your own decision.

Here is data on Behr Silver Screen.

And here is one of the Black Widow data charts again...

This makes it a little easier to see that there is a slight blue push with Silver Screen. For some it may not be a problem, for others it could be.

Anyway, I was one that had some problems with SS. It looked good, but something was always slightly off with the color balance. I'd calibrate, try to adjust, and get one thing fixed but then something else would be off.

Sherwin Williams Gray Screen just seemed to work better for me and my tastes. With that said, I saw an improvement going from Silver Screen in a flat finish to Gray Screen in a matte finish, and BW PFG blows Gray Screen out of the water in my opinion. Trust me on this too, as the person that found Gray Screen and as much as I love it (and Winter Mountain) this is better. Color reproduction is just as accurate but have a bolder look, Whites are just as white as GS (and GS has some pretty impressive whites), shadow detail is better and there is more depth and a 3D look- especially with HD content, and there is no contest with blacks.

Here's a secret... the darker your blacks look the whiter your whites will look.

PFG does not increase CR, that's impossible, but it does help with not only perceived Contrast Ratio, but I feel it more accurately shows what the projector is producing.

Aside from the phenomenal blacks and ambient performance, one of the best traits of this screen is it isn't prone to color shifting like mica is. That's not being negative, that's just the nature of pearls. By definition iridescence is color shifting by refracting light. Aluminum is a non-interference material meaning it doesn't 'interfere' or refract the light hitting it- therefore no prism effects or color shifting.

An interesting thing to note too is so far nobody has reported any hot spotting and some of us are hitting this with some pretty bright projectors. So far from 1000 lumens up to 2000 lumens. For those with projectors that aren't as bright they may want to use the white base over the Winter Mist base, but we plan on getting more testing on different bases too.

**tonyvdb** · **01-24-08, 01:12 PM**

Quote:

wbassett wrote:

Tony that's great to hear! Any screen shots by chance?

I will see if I can find time to do that in the next day or so (I have to finish working helping my 14 year old daughter with her science project first)

I did waiver off the actual recommendations as I used Behr Ultra pure white eggshell as a base and added the Behr silver paint that they sell. My projector is only 800 lumens so I hoped that the slightly reflective nature of eggshell would help. Maybe I should have gone with flat?

**tradewinds** · **01-24-08, 03:03 PM**

Quote:

wbassett wrote:

Sherwin Williams Gray Screen just seemed to work better for me and my tastes. With that said, I saw an improvement going from Silver Screen in a flat finish to Gray Screen in a matte finish, and BW PFG blows Gray Screen out of the water in my opinion. Trust me on this too, as the person that found Gray Screen and as much as I love it (and Winter Mountain) this is better. Color reproduction is just as accurate but have a bolder look, Whites are just as white as GS (and GS has some pretty impressive whites), shadow detail is better and there is more depth and a 3D look- especially with HD content, and there is no contest with blacks.

Here's a secret... the darker your blacks look the whiter your whites will look.

This is very helpful comparison for someone who looks at all types of shades and surfaces.

Quote:

they may want to use the white base over the Winter Mountain base, but we plan on getting more testing in that area too.

Where did Winter Mountain come from with BW PFG? I thought it was Winter Mist, I am getting confused again

**wbassett** · **01-24-08, 03:13 PM**

Sorry about that, I meant to say Winter Mist, just had the other on my mind I guess! I corrected that.

**riskpeep** · **01-24-08, 03:56 PM**

Would it be a correct assumption to believe that the addition of aluminum brings up the gain of the underlying white paint (while at the same time making it look gray?)

The reason for my curiosity is to wonder what would happen if one were to mix this aluminum paint with a matte polyurethane and put it on a DW or FG panel. It would seem to me that by mixing the aluminum directly in with the underlying color coat as in the formulation you're testing, the effect of the aluminum is diminished as the aluminum particles will be competing with, and in some cases behind white pigmentation particles.

In the case of aluminum in polyurethane, over-top a white or gray base, though, it would seem that you'd get some deeper light penetration and the aluminum's effect wouldn't be diminished at all. This could give you a higher gain white or gray screen. Not to say that you should be seeking gain for gain's sake, but you might get the benefits of both worlds then. The deeper blacks of a true gray screen, along with the whiter whites and color neutrality of an aluminum coated screen.

I'm in no position to test this theory, but the engineer in me really wonders, and since no one has mentioned it, I thought I'd suggest it and see what you think?

**wbassett** · **01-24-08, 04:27 PM**

Quote:

riskpeep wrote:

Would it be a correct assumption to believe that the addition of aluminum brings up the gain of the underlying white paint (while at the same time making it look gray?)

Correct.

The reason for my curiosity is to wonder what would happen if one were to mix this aluminum paint with a matte polyurethane and put it on a DW or FG panel. It would seem to me that by mixing the aluminum directly in with the underlying color coat as in the formulation you're testing, the effect of the aluminum is diminished as the aluminum particles will be competing with, and in some cases behind white pigmentation particles.

This is actually being tested, but initial reports are that it's messy, hard to roll.

In the case of aluminum in polyurethane, over-top a white or gray base, though, it would seem that you'd get some deeper light penetration and the aluminum's effect wouldn't be diminished at all. This could give you a higher gain white or gray screen. Not to say that you should be seeking gain for gain's sake, but you might get the benefits of both worlds then. The deeper blacks of a true gray screen, along with the whiter whites and color neutrality of an aluminum coated screen.

That's a lot of the original concept- trying to balance whites and deep blacks while mantaining color accuracy.

I'm in no position to test this theory, but the engineer in me really wonders, and since no one has mentioned it, I thought I'd suggest it and see what you think?

A lot of us are engineers too or in a technical field.

Hopefully you can see there has been a lot of testing and data readings done before presenting this. We didn't want to just throw something together and guess at the recommended paints to use.

I renamed the original thread when this was in development from 'Pigment Free Gray- A New Gray Screen' to 'Pigment Free Gray- Theory and Testing'

Sometimes theory discussions can get way off the beaten path for a presentation thread and is usually more than the average person looking for a screen is interested in. Sure there are some charts and tech talk in here but it's just enough to explain what this is and why it works.

You nailed it though... Aluminum is bright and reflective but doesn't refract light so it doesn't break it down like mica can and cause a prism affect.

**mechman** · **01-24-08, 06:36 PM**

HE558 mixed with poly as a topcoat was a bust. I do, however, reserve the right to change my opinion once it warms up and I can recheck it with my hvlp gun properly.

This is the one and only picture I have of that endeavor. It has been re-primed with Kilz2. The left side was rolled using a popular method. It ended up just plain ugly. Numerous inconsistencies. The upper right was done with a Preval sprayer. That actually showed some promise!

mech

**tradewinds** · **01-28-08, 03:34 PM**

Muzz, are you using the WM or the LW base in the PFG mix? I noticed on the other thread you mentioned the following:

Quote:

I went slightly different, my mix is Benjamin Moore Chantilly Lace, @ 4.5:1

Note sure if you were referring to BW PFG.

**muzz** · **01-28-08, 04:13 PM**

Chantilly Lace is the Benjamin Moore Color that is a decent match for SW Luminous White.
I like Ben Moore paints, and prefer to use them.

I did use it for the BW, instead of Luminous White.

Still testing, and awaiting a new bulb, as mine has over 2K hours on it.

**mechman** · **01-28-08, 05:29 PM**

tradewinds,

I think we're gonna pull the recommendation for LW as we've gotten wonky readings from two separate sources. Winter Mist, however, gives us dead on neutral readings from two separate sources!

mech

**tradewinds** · **01-29-08, 12:49 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

tradewinds,

I think we're gonna pull the recommendation for LW as we've gotten wonky readings from two separate sources. Winter Mist, however, gives us dead on neutral readings from two separate sources!

mech

cool...on my earlier post I did ask about this but didn't realize the LW was bad enough to be pulled. Now I have to drive a long ways to get the WM...

No problem though, I'm glad you guys pulled it before I purchased.

**Harpmaker** · **01-29-08, 02:26 PM**

Quote:

tradewinds wrote:

cool...on my earlier post I did ask about this but didn't realize the LW was bad enough to be pulled. Now I have to drive a long ways to get the WM...

No problem though, I'm glad you guys pulled it before I purchased.

Hang on a second Tradewinds. I can save you the gas money and driving time by sending you a sample of WM for your local SW store to match. Just PM me a mailing address.

**tradewinds** · **01-29-08, 02:28 PM**

Harp, I appreciate the offer very much, but believe me I would not have my SW store match anything. I took in a piece of GOM fabric for them to match and the machine gave some weird color. I had to wait there hours for them to match it the old fashion way...by eyeballs

**Harpmaker** · **01-29-08, 03:37 PM**

Quote:

tradewinds wrote:

Harp, I appreciate the offer very much, but believe me I would not have my SW store match anything. I took in a piece of GOM fabric for them to match and the machine gave some weird color. I had to wait there hours for them to match it the old fashion way...by eyeballs

To be fair, fabric can be tougher to match than a flat paint. I do understand though.

The offer still stands.

Before you drive all that way to the True Value store, make sure you have the formula for Winter Mist with you! Some stores don't have it, or look up the wrong tint values (been there!

).

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