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| Projector Screens | DIY Screens Black Widow PFG - the PresentationDiscuss Black Widow PFG - the Presentation in the Home Theater | Audio and Video forum; Black Widow PFG - the Presentation Black Widow PFG
What is Black Widow 'PFG'? It is a revolutionary way of making a screen the 'DIY' way.
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 01-19-08, 05:16 PM
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| Black Widow PFG - the Presentation  What is Black Widow 'PFG'? It is a revolutionary way of making a screen the 'DIY' way. First a very brief history of DIY painted screens and some of the more popular methods and mindsets: For years the debate was White vs Gray. White is easy and the most forgiving. Of course the better balanced a white screen is the more accurate it will be, but unlike a gray screen White is more forgiving and can be off more and not be as noticeable as a gray screen that isn't a well balanced color. Still even with a white screen, the closer to D65 it is the more accurate it will be. The same goes with gray screens, the closer they are to neutral the better and more accurate they are. But what exactly constitutes a 'neutral'? Good Question. There are many parameters but the main ones are the color balance (L*ab and xyY values), spectral curve, and color temperature. For years many have tried to make the 'perfect' DIY screen. One that would perform with ambient lighting but also perform equally as well in a dark and dedicated environment. One of the biggest problems and debates has been what exactly is gray? This has literally been debated for years and rather than explain it all over again the best thing is to refer to the neutral gray thread. As good as a simple neutral gray is, there has always been a desire to improve upon things. The most popular way up until now has been by the use of mica (pearlescent) and poly coatings. The problem is mica by nature causes a color shift. So how can we improve on a well balanced neutral gray without introducing color shifting that mica's and interference pigments are known to cause? By using non-interference pigments instead...
It was found that by adding aluminum based paint (which is a water based paint comprised primarily of aluminum and no other colorants) a gray was created. Aluminum is a very bright and universal element. It has been used over the years as a 'silver' substitute, and has even been used for making mirrors. Needless to say it is very bright and reflective. That and the fact that it is a non-interference substance it was a very interesting element. The results were astounding. First let's look at one of the most neutral Off The Self neutral grays made the conventional way with various colorant pigments.  This is about as neutral as it gets with pigment based colorants. Look at the values highlighted in green. The color balance, temperature, and spectral curve all are well within our desired specifications. Now let's look at what happens to that same ideal neutral when an interference material such as mica is added.  Quite a change from the neutral balance seen before, and this was with just one coating. Next up is one of the most well known and popular DIY advanced screen methods.  Again a major change from our well balanced neutral reference. Black Widow PFG is up next... First a 4:1 mix ratio using Sherwin Williams Luminous White.  It isn't dead on neutral but is a very close near neutral. Look at the spectral curve though, it's still very flat! Next is a 5:1 ratio mix using True Value's Winter Mist, the same as the very first data graphic shown...  So what exactly is Black Widow? It is a gray made using Henry Aluminum roof paint added in the proper ratio to a common base paint. You can't just use anything, it has to be a water based aluminum paint so we went with Henry 558. The original material was a plain water based aluminum paint, but unfortunately it was discontinued. What are the benefits? Well as the Spider says-
That's some pretty bold claims... seeing is believing though. The center of the screen are the two original PFG test panels in a 3:1 and 4:1 ratio. To the left is a known performer, Sherwin Williams Gray Screen, and to the right is a generic general run of the mill N8.5 shade of gray. SW Gray Screen was one of the Kings of Off The Shelf (OTS) grays that provided deep blacks, excellent color reproduction and very white whites. It's no contest between the two. So PFG wins with blacks but what about color? Another good question...  The secret is the aluminum, but the key is not only the lack of color shifting that iridescence cause, but how uniform the aluminum is. To the left is a PFG sample, to the right is a mica based application. The aluminum has a much denser and more uniform coverage as compared to the larger mica flakes. It's also very easy to see reds, blues, yellows, orange and other colors throughout the mica. That is a perfect example of uniformity and lack of color shifting.  What is really amazing is this is a darker screen but doesn't look dull or muddy like most dark grays look. The aluminum is the performance difference. Lights out...  Lights on...  It was these tests that led to the current application that we are now ready to present... Black Widow PFG! The next logical question is how do you make it and how do you apply it. Making it is very simple. For a 4:1 ratio that's mixed with Luminous White take 8 ounces of Henry 558 and add it to a quart of Sherwin Williams Luminous White, stir and apply. That will make 40 ounces of Black Widow PFG LW4:1. For the 5:1 ratio we used Winter Mist for the base. Add 4 ounces of Henry 558 to 20 ounces of Winter Mist. That's less than a quart but enough to paint the average size screen. The reason I went less was because for a 5:1 made using 8 ounces of HE558 you'd need more than a quart of paint (40 ounces to be exact) and a quart is only 32 ounces... make sense?  For a little more though you can get a full gallon of Winter Mist, so making the 5:1 ratio would be like this, add 8 ounces of HE558 to 40 ounces of Winter Mist... guaranteed to be more than enough to paint just about any size screen.
Right now Sherwin Williams Luminous White and True Value Winter Mist are the only recommended base paints. We have tested a wide variety of paints to use as a base and none of them come close to meeting our specs as these two do. When we identify more they will be listed but that will not be a 'change' to the way to make Black Widow, just open up more options for people to use to get the same performance but with other paint brands. How is Black Widow PFG applied? It's just like painting a wall. No special rollers or rolling techniques are needed. Just a good quality low nap roller. Prime the surface with a good primer, my primer of choice is Kilz2, but any good quality white primer will work. Mix up your Black Widow, and roll it on... it really is that easy. Stay away from foam rollers though. They sometimes cause bubbles to form and when the bubbles pop a bright spot is formed. If you see a bubble, don't panic, just roll it out and move on.
 Coming up next are some actual Black Widow shots and even a first hand account of making a full size screen and how it performs. We are also working on making this even easier, but the concept and performance won't be changed at all. The only down side is HE558 may not be in your local store but ask the stores that carry Henry products, ACE said they could get it and other stores may be willing to order it as well. Where to purchase The place where muzz and I purchased our gallons was here. Ace Hardware is supposed to be able to order it as well. Although Harpmaker's Ace said he would have to buy 4 gallons. If you live in a warmer climate, it may actually be stocked on the shelves of Home Depot, Lowe's etc. We'll add to this list as we hear of more places. mech "Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein "If all else fails, spin the cat."- Grzboken | |||||||||||||||||||
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| 01-19-08, 06:04 PM
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| Recommended Materials Attention: This post will be updated with alternative aluminums and the tested and recommended properly balanced base latex paint to be used with that brand of aluminum. These items will not be interchangeable since they are tested and color balanced to the specific brand. Right now only Henry 558 Water Based aluminum is the tested and recommended aluminum base. We are working on more brands. ADDITION by Jim (cynical2): AAA has now been tested and is our first alternative mix for Black Widow. To jump down to the BW-AAA presentation, click here. Thanks to mech for tireless testing (I really don't know how he gets it all done!), Brian (member bidzer) for being the BW-AAA guinea pig and demonstrating that the testing in mech's "lab" translates into a great screen, and Ben (member benven) for bringing this particular aluminum additive to our attention! Note that the remainder of this post and the several following posts are regarding the Henry product, not AAA. For Henry 558 the only two base paints that passed the testing and are the ones recommended are Sherwin Williams Luminous White and True Value Winter Mist. Note on Winter Mist, get Lowes to use their Matchrite software to look it up and have them make it. They have a computerized system that more accurately matches the intended color value from the company fandeck. True Value often uses older mechanical dispensers and they don't typically have a dedicated paint staff, rather employees quickly trained and work various departments throughout the store. You will get a better quality paint with Valspar and a more accurate color match. Black Widow PFG made with Henry 558 HE558/Luminous White 4:1- Use one part Henry 558 to four parts Luminous White HE558/Winter Mist 5:1- Use one part Henry 558 to five parts Winter Mist More brands coming and this post will be updated as things are identified and tested. ______________________________________________________________________ It seems there are some questions/concerns/comments about the availability of the aluminum portion of Black Widow. We want to stress you can't grab anything, we spent time to test and check color balance before presenting BW. Henry 555 is solvent based, not water based. It is not recommended to use it with water based latex paints. Behr Silver Metallic is definitely not the same thing. It is mica based and defeats the whole purpose of using a non-interference such as aluminum. It may look good to some people, but aluminum performs better than the pearls and mica and looks nicer. As good as the pearls look, this really is better. As I mentioned, we are currently testing some other sources for aluminum, but they will not be a replacement, rather a suppliment and people can then go with what is easiest to obtain. The color balance (if used with the recommended base paints) will be the same and the performance will be the same. We are just looking for ways to make this easier and more attainable. Now, with that said... HE558, Black Jack, what mech is working on, or if a base can be found for the Auto Air Aluminum- everything would be an online purchase anyway. (I want to reiterate: HE558 is the only officially recommended aluminum right now. It has been tested with the recommended base paints, Black Jack is a discontinued product and the rest haven't been tested or are being tested now) Even the popular pearl/poly method elsewhere can't be found locally by everyone and lot of people have to order it online, same as with BW. It is an unfortunate step for Black Widow PFG but well worth it. If a person absolutely can't wait then they can go with an OTS neutral gray or white and that will serve them well, and if they want to upgrade later on they can. Or since they will be priming anyway (this would mainly be for new people setting up for the first time though) they could do what I always recommend anyway while they are waiting for the aluminum portion to arrive- use the Kilz2 primed screen area as a unity gain white screen, calibrate and get used to their projector and settings for a few days and see what modes they like and don't like and areas they want to see improved. By the time they are done with that they should have their aluminum paint. Like I said, some people don't want to wait so if they need a screen quick, they can always use an OTS, I'm not abandoning neutral grays at all. They are still excellent screen options. Besides, a first time setup really should take some time calibrating and getting a feel for what the projector looks like on a white screen. For some people they may decide not to go any further, but everyone really should see their projector on a white screen first to get a baseline of its performance. How else can a person know if it's better or not? Better is subjective too... whites will always take a hit on any gray screen, even commercial screens, but blacks and ambient viewing are much better. Some people like pure whites, some like dark blacks, and some have a need to have lights on at times or even watch during the day. Without a baseline, it doesn't matter if it's Black Widow PFG, a simple OTS gray, laminate or commercial screen... how can anyone know if they made an improvement or not? ... and you can think of it this way... If a person is buying a commercial screen, unless they have a local HT shop that carries the exact screen they want and has it in stock, they have to wait for that to show up too! Waiting a couple of days for the aluminum to arrive is well worth it. "Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein "If all else fails, spin the cat."- Grzboken | |||
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| 01-20-08, 12:38 AM
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|  Re: Black Widow PFG Well...... I have this screen in action, have been for that last few days. I think it's fabulous myself. I could NOT find the Henry 558 locally, even though I went to their website and found local distributors, maybe you guys will have better luck, but I ordered it online after MANY hours of frustration.... It was pathetic..... I have personally taken more pics than I care to mention, getting a really good screen shot(REAL, LIKE WHAT YOU REALLY SEE), is a nightmare in itself, ESPECIALLY on LIGHT backgrounds..... Reason? White Balance White balance can take up a whole LARGE thread in itself, and be MANY pages in itself.. Alot of views will be LESS affected by this than others, but some shots are SEVERELY affected,I'm trying, and I have 2 cameras here...... Facts are this, LARGE white areas look a bit bluish, I MUST get a Whibal, and even then it'll change per shot. Like I said, WB is a big deal in regards to NON DOCTORED SHOTS. ALL of the shots you see, are NOT doctored AT ALL, not touch-ups, etc.... is what it is (hopefuly!!). There IS software available to correct WB on shots.... I think thats a VERY debateable subject,, but I know that it's WIDELY accepted for corporate,and sometimes HT shots.. I have NOT retouched any of my pics, although I could for the WB issue.... I just feel it's a bit weak, and REFUSE to do that. hence the problems I have stated.. Whatever..... My Projector is a Panasonic AX100U, with over 1900 hours on it, so I USUALLY use he "NORMAL" setting, I think it's the 3rd from brightest, the pics shown are using that setting. I don't lie, what you see is a FAIR, but NOT perfect rendition of what I see here, any questions LMK. Pics to come... | |||
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| 01-20-08, 01:05 AM
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| Re: Black Widow PFG I'd like to start out this post by saying that I've looked at and reviewed a lot of panels and paint mixes since coming on board here at the Shack, and this one is the best diy screen paint for ambient light viewing that I know of! There is another that I know of but benven hasn't released his formula yet for comparisons. Shopping What you're looking for is this:  And this is what it looks like when opened:  Application Notes Some application notes that I'd like to add are that spraying is currently under review. Harpmaker agreed to beta test spraying for us and is still working on it. As for the nap of the roller I'd keep it 1/4" or less. I used foam rollers on my original test panels and had bubbles form to which Bill has alluded to the problems this can create. So stick with the 1/4" or less nap roller. I haven't had any trouble with panels created with these. Nor has our other beta tester, muzz, who has already replaced his screen with Black Widow! Watch for roller marks! Make sure you go over the screen when your done once more with the roller. Roll from top to bottom overlapping an inch or two each time. This helps to lay the aluminum flakes properly. Do not apply pressure when doing this! It helps to have a halogen work light, or some other bright light, at a 30 degree angle from the screen shining onto it. This also helps to find any errors in your rolling. Another item I'd like to caution folks about is handling the screen after it has dried. Care should be taken as we have seen some smudging. At this time it appears to be worse on screens that are sprayed. I had to create quite a bit of friction with my finger to create a smudge on my rolled screens. We're currently investigating a good topcoat that won't yellow over time and won't decrease the performance of the screen. I'm hoping to continue work on it this week. As of right now the Behr 780 matte polyurethane seems to work fine. However it has been known to yellow over time. I'm currently investigating proportions of Valspar Clear Coat Protectors in the flat and satin finishes to figure out which will work best. They introduce virtually no color shifting. Musings So I'm sure folks will wonder why 4:1 and 5:1? Why not 3:1? Well the 3:1's produced a very grainy picture and what appeared to be roller marks on the panel. While I'm not a painter by trade, I can assure you there aren't any roller marks. I believe it's just from higher concentration of aluminum. I've done some work on these and have gotten them straightened out. When it's finalized I'll add it to the top post and to the thread. mech mech Got questions? Start a thread.  | |||
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| 01-20-08, 01:15 AM
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| Re: Black Widow PFG I also want to reiterate that I can't smudge my panels without applying an abnormal amount of pressure and friction, so much that it would damage any screen except for a laminate screen. Rolling doesn't seem to be a problem and I just wanted to add that so people didn't think this was a problem even with a rolled screen. Keep in mind any painted screen can be damaged with excessive scrubbing or abrasive cleaners. The only virtually indestructible screen that I know of and have personally tested (and I really mean I abused it! From freezing to soaking in water for days...) is laminate. I will be spraying a screen very soon on the new light weight screen I am working on so we will get this working as a sprayed option. "Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein "If all else fails, spin the cat."- Grzboken | |||
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| 01-20-08, 01:21 AM
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| Re: Black Widow PFG A couple more spectral reflectance curves: This one is of all three plotted in one chart  And then the original HE558 spectral curve  Also a big hearty  to Smokey Joe for helping me with all this! mech mech Got questions? Start a thread. | |||
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| 01-20-08, 04:40 AM
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| Re: Black Widow PFG Quote:
As I mentioned, aluminum has been used for many things, even mirrors, so it adds a highly reflective property without the color shifting we see with pearls and iridescence. We can make a darker gray that makes blacks look better but the highly reflective and uniform properties of aluminum let it remain a bright screen and able to produce whites and vivid colors that are typically reserved for much lighter shade screens. Blacks and brightness aside, it gives better detail and image sharpness as well as more depth. I know I showed this screen shot before, but take a look at it again and look at the reds and orange's closer... they really come to life and have a vibrance and depth I haven't seen on any other DIY screen including the laminates I have tested. I've used/tested a variety of painted and laminate screens and I will be replacing my own personal screen with one of these. As part of that I will be documenting a screen build from the ground up. This screen will be just as unique and revolutionary as the Black Widow PFG paint that will be going on it. Right now the prototype is light enough that I can literally lift it (53"x93") with my pinkie. I am adding cross bracing to stiffen the frame up more and that will add some weight, so after adding the supports I'd say I probably will have to use my index finger instead of my pinkie In other words we're moving from the days of big heavy 60lb DIY screens and frames down to less than 20lbs, something Grzboken himself would be proud of So look for that to be coming in the next few weeks... the prototype worked, so now it's time to build the real McCoy. "Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein "If all else fails, spin the cat."- Grzboken | ||||
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| 01-20-08, 05:12 PM
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| Re: Black Widow PFG I think this screen does a good job with ambient lighting, here are a couple of shots.. Without light: http://s168.photobucket.com/albums/u...t=IMG_1516.jpg With 75 watt table lamp to the left of the camera- easy reading light: http://s168.photobucket.com/albums/u...t=IMG_1517.jpg This pic isn't too bad for a 1900 hr bulb:  This screen smokes my old Pebble Beach/2 x PTC http://s168.photobucket.com/albums/u...t=IMG_1331.jpg | |||
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| 01-20-08, 05:41 PM
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| Re: Black Widow PFG I went slightly different, my mix is Benjamin Moore Chantilly Lace, @ 4.5:1 This was an EZ job. I mixed the 558 paint by hand (as specified by the label),and combined the 2 products the same way.. I used a 1/4" Nap roller Piece of cake, awesome results. | |||
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| 01-24-08, 07:48 PM
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| Re: Black Widow PFG - the Presentation A discussion of Black Widow PFG can be found here. Also, if you're interested in a bit of the history of of the PFG mix, you can find that in the Initial Development and Testing thread. | |||
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| 02-20-08, 07:03 PM
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| Re: Black Widow PFG - the Presentation Black Widow - Auto Air Aluminum Fine Most of the work done investigating this version of Black Widow can be found here. The Base The base determined to give us the most neutral mix is PPG - The Voice of Color Bermuda Beige (427-2).  The final spectro numbers for this mix are this: 186 186 186 0.312 0.329 49.1 75.5 -0.06 -0.08 Which according to the Lindbloom color calculator gives a screen temperature color of 6503!  The other base that was determined to be good as well was PPG - The Voice of Color Bare Beige (327-2).  The final spectro numbers for this mix are this: 186 187 187 0.312 0.329 49.6 75.8 -0.25 -0.05 Which gives us a final screen color temperature of 6548.2 Our recommendation, unless something changes with the numbers is to stick with the Bermuda Beige for now! Bermuda Beige can be acquired at any PPG store, Lowe's, or Ace Hardware. These stores should have these colors in their database. This version requires a mixture of 4:1 at this time although further investigations may lead us to different ratios. For example, we have yet to try the Auto Air in a 3:1 mixture. More than likely it would require a different base color. Application is similar to the HE558. Thin it to a soupy consistency - I use a plastic fork to judge this. If the paint drops right out from between the tines, it's thin enough. I've never had to add more than 4oz per quart of anything to thin it out properly. Roll it on with 1/4" or less nap rollers. Foam rollers were not tried with this mix to see if they gave the same bad results that they did with HE558. So we'd recommend staying away from them for now. It is very helpful to have some type of a light off to the side shining on the screen at an angle (20-30 degrees) in order to see any roller marks. When you're done applying it's advisable to go back over the whole screen rolling from the top down to eliminate roller marks and to get the aluminum flakes to lay flat (the flakes are called leafing aluminum flakes). Overlap each pass a couple inches. For folks rolling larger screens, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have a helper follow you along, doing the back rolling as you go. On all of the panels there are two coats of Kilz2 primer and two coats of Black Widow. 40oz. of the mix should be enough to do two coats on at least a 106" screen. The spectral response curve:  mech wbassett- A recap: So there are no questions as to the base that was used and recommended:  The tint is PPG - The Voice of Color Bermuda Beige (427-2) and Lowes can do an excellent color match of PPG paints directly from their color library. They also sell Olympic Paints, which is made by PPG, so they are very familiar with PPG products and color codes. As for the Aluminum used for the BW AAA, as stated it is Createx Auto Air Aluminum Fine.  For the darker Black Widow that is in the N7.5 range of gray, it is very simple: Mix 8 ounces of the Createx Auto Air Aluminum Fine with a quart (32 ounces) of Valspar Interior Flat Enamel, mix thoroughly, and apply. I personally use a drill with a squirrel cage mixer. mech Got questions? Start a thread. | |||
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| 02-27-08, 01:12 PM
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| Re: Black Widow PFG - the Presentation For those of us outside of the United States: 1 quart = ~ 946ml or just shy of a liter 1 ounce = ~ 29.5ml So you'd need 236ml Auto Air Aluminum to a quart of paint or 250ml Auto Air Aluminum to a liter of paint. mech mech Got questions? Start a thread. | |||
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| 04-13-08, 12:50 AM
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| Re: Black Widow PFG - the Presentation A couple more to add! BW/AAA 4:1:1 and 3:1:1 - Bermuda Beige : Auto Air Aluminum fine : Valspar Flat Ultra White in flat enamel finish. 4:1:1  3:1:1  And also the BW/AAA 3:1  Here is a pic of the Valspar Flat Ultra White in flat enamel finish.  mech Got questions? Start a thread. | |||
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| 06-11-08, 06:29 PM
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| Re: Black Widow PFG - the Presentation One new and one not so new versions of Black Widow. For those of you in Australia there's been an Australian version for some time. Dulux Half Ellen is the match for Bermuda Beige. I haven't tested any samples from Australia yet. And we now have a UK version. Form my good friend custy: Quote:
S0907 spectro reading:  And the UKBW spectro reading:  mech Got questions? Start a thread. | ||||
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