Further Investigations...

[Harpmaker]

I think this will be germane here.

From Wikipedia [Color Theory]
When mixing colored light (additive color models), the achromatic mixture of spectrally balanced red, green and blue (RGB) is always white, not gray or black. When we mix colorants, such as the pigments in paint mixtures, a color is produced which is always darker and lower in chroma, or saturation, than the parent colors. This moves the mixed color toward a neutral color—a gray or near-black. Lights are made brighter or dimmer by adjusting their brightness, or energy level; in painting, lightness is adjusted through mixture with white, black or a color's complement.

It is common among some painters to darken a paint color by adding black paint—producing colors called shades—or lighten a color by adding white—producing colors called tints. However it is not always the best way for representational painting, as an unfortunate result is for colors to also shift in hue. For instance, darkening a color by adding black can cause colors such as yellows, reds and oranges, to shift toward the greenish or bluish part of the spectrum. Lightening a color by adding white can cause a shift towards blue when mixed with reds and oranges. Another practice when darkening a color is to use its opposite, or complementary, color (e.g. purplish-red added to yellowish-green) in order to neutralize it without a shift in hue, and darken it if the additive color is darker than the parent color. When lightening a color this hue shift can be corrected with the addition of a small amount of an adjacent color to bring the hue of the mixture back in line with the parent color (e.g. adding a small amount of orange to a mixture of red and white will correct the tendency of this mixture to shift slightly towards the blue end of the spectrum).

[mechman]

No need to check wikipedia when it's all here.

Today's readings

Essential Gray

167 161 158
0.321 0.334 36.2
66.7 1.26 2.60

So that pretty much stayed the same. Curing had no effect upon it.

Now all the 4:1s

Essential Gray
160 159 159
0.314 0.329 34.8
65.6 0.36 0.13

LA White Clay

180 186 192
0.303 0.322 48.8
75.3 -1.37 -3.45

LA Sterling

175 178 181
0.308 0.326 44.4
72.5 -0.59 -1.51

Cappucino

183 189 192
0.305 0.324 50.1
76.1 -1.36 -2.51

Sugar Blossom

191 195 198
0.307 0.325 54.1
78.5 -0.73 -2.12

Ivory 1

186 192 196
0.305 0.324 52.2
77.4 -1.32 -2.85

I think it's pretty safe to say they aren't gonna shuffle much! Outside of Essential gray I have no other bases.

As I have started working on my Elite Screen review, work on this will probably slow to a crawl. I do have plans to attempt a few other things. But they may have to wait until next week. What other things? A redder base or just add a drop or two of red to the base until I get it evened out and then color match if I have to. I may need a drop or two of green as well... I'd really hate to do all that though as I'm not a major proponent of mixing your own paint. It makes the difficult more difficult. I'd prefer to find a good color match!

mech

[Harpmaker]

mechman wrote:

As I have started working on my Elite Screen review, work on this will probably slow to a crawl. I do have plans to attempt a few other things. But they may have to wait until next week. What other things? A redder base or just add a drop or two of red to the base until I get it evened out and then color match if I have to. I may need a drop or two of green as well... I'd really hate to do all that though as I'm not a major proponent of mixing your own paint. It makes the difficult more difficult. I'd prefer to find a good color match!

Perhaps you could add the color correcting drops, keeping notes of course, then when you have it neutral, mix up the same base and color drops, but without the AAA, and spectro it so you have values to run through EasyRGB.

[wbassett]

mechman wrote:

Today's readings

Now all the 4:1s

Essential Gray
160 159 159
0.314 0.329 34.8
65.6 0.36 0.13

That looks like a very good balance and temp wise it's 6450.7. That is also something interesting to note... Going solely on the RGB that would look to be about as neutral as they come, and I bet it has a pretty flat spectral curve graph too... and even though the temp is well within neutral toleralance specs, you'd think based on the RGB alone it would be a lot closer to 6503. That does prove how all the numbers need to be looked at together to get the full picture of the color balance. All and all this is a very nice looking balance... and very neutral on all the specs.

Mech you said this one has excellent blacks and white look as good as FG right? If so, this is very interesting... It's slightly darker than an N6.5 but performs color and white wise more like an N8... that's what I want to see and hear!

If this performs well, sounds like this is the AA 4:1 mixer base. Not much need to mess around with it. 5:1 is the next ratio to nail down. Great work!

[mechman]

Harpmaker wrote:

Perhaps you could add the color correcting drops, keeping notes of course, then when you have it neutral, mix up the same base and color drops, but without the AAA, and spectro it so you have values to run through EasyRGB.

My intentions exactly!

mech

[mechman]

wbassett wrote:

That looks like a very good balance and temp wise it's 6450.7. That is also something interesting to note... Going solely on the RGB that would look to be about as neutral as they come, and I bet it has a pretty flat spectral curve graph too... and even though the temp is well within neutral toleralance specs, you'd think based on the RGB alone it would be a lot closer to 6503. That does prove how all the numbers need to be looked at together to get the full picture of the color balance. All and all this is a very nice looking balance... and very neutral on all the specs.

Mech you said this one has excellent blacks and white look as good as FG right? If so, this is very interesting... It's slightly darker than an N6.5 but performs color and white wise more like an N8... that's what I want to see and hear!

If this performs well, sounds like this is the AA 4:1 mixer base. Not much need to mess around with it. 5:1 is the next ratio to nail down. Great work!

Ask and ye shall receive!



Yes it was a lot better black wise than FG and whites were on par with FG or slightly better. I really wish I would have gotten some screenies before the panel curved. Didn't you tell me once before not to use foam panels for paint mixes! I am trying to flatten it though. Regardless, it is a satin mix and it needs to be matte. Find me a good color match that Lowe's will have of this. Obviously it cannot be Essential Gray.

On another note, the Elite screen looks good!

mech

[wbassett]

mechman wrote:

Yes it was a lot better black wise than FG and whites were on par with FG or slightly better. I really wish I would have gotten some screenies before the panel curved. Didn't you tell me once before not to use foam panels for paint mixes! I am trying to flatten it though. Regardless, it is a satin mix and it needs to be matte. Find me a good color match that Lowe's will have of this. Obviously it cannot be Essential Gray.

On another note, the Elite screen looks good!

mech

Foam boards bite! I had one I sprayed curl up like a pork rind!

This looks like a winner. It is ever so slightly down in red, but that can be a good thing though. All in all, all specs match our neutral tolerance specifications, so we have a neutral AAA 4:1 mix! I think this needs a full test panel done (no rush) and if it then passes the screenie and calibration test, it goes up on the BW PFG thread as a second way to make a Black Widow.

Lowes can match SW can't they? Or did they have a bad DE on this one? I'll look around though for a match.

It is a very interesting thing to note, RGB shows Red up a click, but the spectral curve actually shows it down a click...

I think this is going to be my new light weight screen when the weather breaks and I can spray it.

[cynical2]

mechman wrote:

Find me a good color match that Lowe's will have of this. Obviously it cannot be Essential Gray.

Mech, here's the closest I can find for Essential Grey matches. Neither of these are huge sellers in the states, to my knowledge, so I have no idea if Lowe's mixes these. I've got some thoughts on other things to look at, too...which I'll also try to do tonite.



The Servistar would definitely be my 1st choice if they do both, given the 9 point R to B spread (vs 11 for the Dutch paint). Ess Grey is 9 points, and the R-B balance will dominate the behavior.

[cynical2]

wbassett wrote:

Foam boards bite! I had one I sprayed curl up like a pork rind!

Thanks for the visual!

[mechman]

wbassett wrote:

Lowes can match SW can't they? Or did they have a bad DE on this one? I'll look around though for a match.

In theory they can... Take a look at the first post and see what EasyRGB says my Essential Gray match was supposed to be!

EasyRGB

188 184 182

My Lowe's match

167 162 158 to today 167 161 158

I may sing their praises as to their color matching abilities, but they may also understand just what I need!

Whatcha think about using the foam board for a torus screen? Seemed to have curved equally and evenly. Again, this would be for someone else to investigate!

mech

[wbassett]

lol- Poster foam board...

First, you have to get it big enough. Second, you're curve is the same as my one foam board, but the other foam board curled up like a cheese puff curl... or like I said, a pork rind!

[mechman]

And I did have time to tinker a bit more...

Valspar Flat Ultra White

248 248 242
0.316 0.335 93.5
97.4 -1.04 2.88

We'll call this FUW from now on!

FUW 4:1

208 214 218
0.305 0.324 66.6
85.3 -1.38 -2.91

FUW 5:1

212 218 222
0.306 0.325 69.6
86.8 -1.36 -2.54

LW 4:1 (Auto Air)

199 204 208
0.306 0.325 59.9
81.8 -1.29 -2.46

LW 5:1

203 208 211
0.307 0.325 62.7
83.3 -1.29 -2.15

There's some more for you to digest while I go watch a movie with the lovely missus! And on the Elite screen as well!

mech

[mechman]

I forgot to add that HCFR 2.0 was released a little over a week ago. I hope to get some readings with that soon as well! Hopefully they fixed their calculations!!

mech

[wbassett]

Good news on the HCFR 2.0, and yeah, let's hope they fixed some of the wonky stuff.

[benven]

Is the satin base helping bring up whites? I would think so. Let's see what a nice flat white base looks like. I would find it hard to believe that the whites are looking at about an N8 with that dark a screen.

[mechman]

benven wrote:

Is the satin base helping bring up whites? I would think so. Let's see what a nice flat white base looks like. I would find it hard to believe that the whites are looking at about an N8 with that dark a screen.

Satin - possible. Could be the aluminum as well. White being reflected back as white, not refracted. I think it was the satin that caused the hot spots. It's all speculative though until I get a matte. What are your thoughts regarding flatt and matte? Was the use of flat mainly due to the addition of satin poly to most mixes? I always wonder why they didn't just use water. Well I shouldn't say that, I realize adding poly does create a more translucent mix. But for thinning, water would be best.

I was gonna have them color match it to a matte quart today. And then test a 4:1 with that. If it stays neutral then I'll do a panel.

Did you see the numbers for the two flat white bases above?

mech

[wbassett]

mechman wrote:

Satin - possible. Could be the aluminum as well. White being reflected back as white, not refracted. I think it was the satin that caused the hot spots. It's all speculative though until I get a matte. What are your thoughts regarding flatt and matte? Was the use of flat mainly due to the addition of satin poly to most mixes? I always wonder why they didn't just use water. Well I shouldn't say that, I realize adding poly does create a more translucent mix. But for thinning, water would be best.

I was gonna have them color match it to a matte quart today. And then test a 4:1 with that. If it stays neutral then I'll do a panel.

Did you see the numbers for the two flat white bases above?

mech

Seeing that we haven't seen any hot spotting with either the HE558 or Black Jack 5168, I'll go out on a limb and say if there is any hot spotting it's from the satin finish increasing the sheen.

I say unless they can't do an accurate color match that it will remain neutral. The sheen doesn't really come into play when it comes to the color balance unless it's just so glossy and reflective it interferes with the spectro taking a reading. XRite recommends in those cases to take multiple spot readings and average them. The Matchrite software can actually do this automatically and that's what they say to do with high gloss materials.

One thing about adding water is that it does evaporate and is no longer part of the cured screen. It does allow thinner coats, which in it self would make it less opaque. Poly will remain part of the cured screen and along with a thinning effect make it even more translucent.

Mech if the flat shows up as nice as the test pot (and it should unless they hose the match), this would be a cool experiment- spray a base of AA Aluminum, then spray a thin coating of the 4:1 mix. Of course that could introduce some change in the color balance if it is translucent and picks up the base color of the AA behind the 4:1 coating. Not anything to worry about now, but down the road it might be something fun to try.

[mechman]

Ixnay on the Servistar and Dutch colors.

I had to do a sample match. And it's 'close'.

165 158 156
0.324 0.333 34.2
65.1 2.47 2.57

It's a flat enamel base.

Flat Base 1 210170
101 - 13
103 - 16.5
109 - 15.5

I tried to get some samples of redder tints as well but the errors are too great. Why? Cause they're adding so little colorant I guess. I picked up some artist's primary red to try and 'tint' what I have to try and bring them inline. In hindsight I probably should have picked up some green too. Why am I doing this? Do I want to create a custom mix? Nope. I'll find out what we'll get us to where we need to be and then I'll spectro it and find a match within EasyRGB. Pretty simple once I find the right match...

I'm off to mix while I should be doing a Elite Silver Frame review... :raped:

mech

[wbassett]

You could try brown too instead of red.

[mechman]

The next samples that I'll hopefully get readings on before I head out tonight for the hockey game are:

1. Lowe's match to the Essential Gray mix 4:1
2. LA Sterling 4:1 with 3 drops of red added
3. LA White Clay with 3 drops of red
4. LA Sugar Blossom with 3 drops of red added
5. The above mixed 4:1

We'll get it sooner or later!

mech

[mechman]

wbassett wrote:

You could try brown too instead of red.

I thought about Umber but can't remember why I decided not to...

mech

[cynical2]

mechman wrote:

Ixnay on the Servistar and Dutch colors.

I had to do a sample match. And it's 'close'.

165 158 156
0.324 0.333 34.2
65.1 2.47 2.57

It's a flat enamel base.

Flat Base 1 210170
101 - 13
103 - 16.5
109 - 15.5

I tried to get some samples of redder tints as well but the errors are too great. Why? Cause they're adding so little colorant I guess. I picked up some artist's primary red to try and 'tint' what I have to try and bring them inline. In hindsight I probably should have picked up some green too. Why am I doing this? Do I want to create a custom mix? Nope. I'll find out what we'll get us to where we need to be and then I'll spectro it and find a match within EasyRGB. Pretty simple once I find the right match...

I'm off to mix while I should be doing a Elite Silver Frame review... :raped:

mech

That's a pretty blamed good match, mech...slightly darker, but almost dead on otherwise. I'm looking forward to the results!

You've been makin' hay lately. Do you ever sleep?

[mechman]

What's sleep?!?!?! Just finished over 60+ shots of the Elite screen...

mech

<---- I forgot about the good ole dance banana lately!

[benven]

mechman wrote:

Satin - possible. Could be the aluminum as well. White being reflected back as white, not refracted. I think it was the satin that caused the hot spots. It's all speculative though until I get a matte. What are your thoughts regarding flatt and matte? Was the use of flat mainly due to the addition of satin poly to most mixes? I always wonder why they didn't just use water. Well I shouldn't say that, I realize adding poly does create a more translucent mix. But for thinning, water would be best.

I haven't seen any issues with matte. I'd say go for it. The use of flat was because of the satin poly. And like you said, water is great fot thinning, but doesn't add translucency to the mix. Polys do.

[mechman]

benven wrote:

I haven't seen any issues with matte. I'd say go for it. The use of flat was because of the satin poly. And like you said, water is great fot thinning, but doesn't add translucency to the mix. Polys do.

Thanks Ben! It may be something I'll have to look into further in order to increase the amount of effective aluminum. Here's a 60X shot



Could be better. But these are little samples which always tend to be a bit thick. I think they get me in the ballpark color/neutral wise. I think that there's more aluminum on the surface of the test panels as they're rolled and end up being thinner. I'll have to see if I can get that foam panel under the microscope.

mech