DIY Screen Painting Question

[cdcstl]

Afer trying several manufactured screen, I decided to paint the screen wall with the Black Widow mix. The wall had been painted with a flat latex before I started. I primer the wall and gave it three coats of the Black Widow mix. I like the results except I can see some roller marks when a bright sky or snow sceen is projected.
Is there any thing I can do to lessen this?

Thanks

[mechman]

Sure. Any mix left? The key thing that you have to do is when you're done applying the paint, go back over it with the roller top to bottom applying no pressure. That aligns the aluminum flakes properly. I think I'd better check and make sure that's in the main thread cause I'm sure not everyone is going to read the HE558 can.

So just go over it one row at a time. And you can overlap these a couple inches each time. It's also handy to have a halogen worklight or some other type of light off to the side shining around 30 degrees or so.

Welcome to the Shack by the way! How'd you find us?

mech

[cdcstl]

Thanks for the reply. I'll give it a try. I've visited the site for about a year or more. When I decided to go the DIY route for the screen, I revisited the site and saw the Black Widow posts. I was looking for something OTS and simple to execute.
I have a Z5 in a light controlled room. The room colors are light but neutral. I now have a 115" image. Given the fact that the Z5 is not real bright, I wonder if there is any way to increase? Is the 588 used to increase the gain? What would happen if a pure white was used with the 588?

[mechman]

Well, in a nutshell, it wouldn't be neutral. It sounds as if one of your coats, more than likely your last, got away from you a bit. And yes the HE558 adds gain. If you have ambient light, this is the best screen option at this time that I've tested.

mech

[cdcstl]

I have more reflected light. Would you think BW is the best OTS option given my setup?

Thanks

[mechman]

Snap some pictures of what you're talking about. Is it outside light hitting the screen or light from lamps? And that's what you mean when you say reflected, right? Light hitting the screen?

mech

[cdcstl]

The carpet is light & the walls & ceiling are a matte finish of a neutral light bown/tan color. My wife wouldn't let me go dark. It is the light reflect from the screen off these surfaces. There are no other lights on when we watch movies or TV. Since the Z5 doesn't have alot of lumens, do you think a white screen would be better than BW?

Thanks again.

[mechman]

And you're not happy with the BW's image? Is it too dark? I'd think a white screen would give you more reflected light making things worse... I'm gonna throw this one by Bill, but one thing is for sure, don't paint with any of the whites out there except for Kilz2. That's the closes neutral white out there.

Stand by...

mech

[cdcstl]

I guess I would like it a little brighter. Would that be possible by increasing the ratio above 5:1?

[wbassett]

Hi cdcstl and welcome to the Shack!

I got your room layout, screen size, and projector.

It is showing at the 11fL mark for a 1.0 gain screen at the size you have listed. That's at the fringe of brightness for a dedicated light controlled room with white screen.

I do need to know some additional information. First what problems are you seeing? Just a dim image? It sounds like from your setup you could use a lighter screen or even a white screen.

HE558/Luminous White 5:1 197 199 195 Temp 6398/-105 Lab 80 -1.25 1.89

It's not neutral but it is within the acceptable usable screen range. Although it is around an N8 range, it will perform brighter than that. How much brighter? I can't say until we get gain tests done.

How dim is the image and what are your impressions of it? Based on your screen size and room setup, and lumens you may be more of a candidate for a white or N9 screen. CGIV is one option to look at, but I think that may be a spray only application. If you can spray it's definitely worth a look.

Have you done a baseline and calibrated on a matte white screen? I am assuming you have since you said you have tried various screens. Also I am assuming you have recalibrated for the BW screen. Since you have the HE558 already you can try using Luminous White and HE558. You should be able to calibrate for it just fine. If you still don't like it, I'd say go with white since you have excellent black levels already.

Basically it depends on how much more you want to put into things. White will definitely be safe and you'll get an excellent reference image, N9 (Like a Winter Mist shade) will still provide very white whites but give a boost to blacks over a plain white screen.

Before doing that, if you haven't already, try Dynamic and Brilliant Cinema modes and see if that makes a difference. I've seen some people initally have some problems with a certain screen but after changing their settings they find an optimal combination that works very well for their setup.

Is it possible to get some screen shots? Granted I understand those mean very little when it comes to actually judging a screen, but it can give us an idea if the image is too dim and find out what's going on.

[cdcstl]

Thanks for the detailed reply. Actually the Z5 is about 19' from the screen. I used the WM 5:1 mix. Normally I use the Brilliant Cinema mode for movies. I have used a matte white & gray Elite screen. I prefered the gray elite which has 1 gain but adjusted the Brilliant setting by opening up the iris. It's wasn't too bad.

I was just wondering if the BW mix's gain could be increased for my setup.

I've enjoyed reading about the work you, mechman & others have done. It's been really interesting to see the process & to listen to a group of great minds at work. Keep it up.

Any other ideas would be more than welcomed.

[wbassett]

Thanks for the kind words

We are working on gain readings, and yeah, we've been asked to 'guess' what BW is and I'd rather not do that. It does have gain though, how much? At this exact moment I can't tell you that.

Ways to increase gain though would be to use a lighter shade, more aluminum, or a top coating that adds a sheen.

Going from the HE558/WM 5:1 mix to the HE558/LW 5:1 mix will bring you from an N7.5 shade of gray to almost an N8 shade of gray. The thing is these don't work like typical grays. With your setup and screen size, I think with a normal painted N7.5 shade of gray you would be extremely unhappy with that.

Let me ask you this, how does the HE558/WM BW compare to the Gray Elite? Same brightness, more, or less? Sounds like you're saying less but I want to make sure.

Anyway, you could go with the 5:1 LW mix which would bring you up to an N8 shade and most likely would be fine. Mech has been testing various coatings and may be able to recommend a top coating that adds a bit of surface sheen, but we want to becareful of that or we can start hot spotting. Granted at around 11fL that's not too much of a concern, but if we increase the surface sheen too much it's still possible.

[cdcstl]

I think the Elite may have been a little brighter but I would have to do a side-by-side to be sure.
I might try the 5:1 LW mix or a topcoat. Could a poly be mixed with BW or applied my itself?

I went with the WM because I think the LW was shown not to be neutral. Couldn't I push the base color for a lighter shade & then color correct with the projector?

[wbassett]

Yeah as long as the screen isn't too far out of balance you will be able to calibrate. In this case it won't be out of that range. We are shooting for a D65 match, but this will work and falls in the 'acceptable' range. The 'near neutral' range would be better still. A 5:1 made with LW will be ever so slightly warm but you will be fine.

[cdcstl]

Many thanks for your help. I'll give LW a try and report back.

[mechman]

One thing to keep in mind is we do have the best N9 mix on the market as well here.

If you think the BW is too dark...

mech

[Harpmaker]

Uh-hum, Sorry to barge in here, but I asked mech about the HE558/Luminous White 5:1 mix awhile ago and he said he never made one! He didn't know what mix that could have been and asked that it be removed from the list.



H.

[mechman]

Harp is right. I cannot ever recall mixing a 5:1 LW. And I have no sample of it. Hold tight on that until I mix one up that I can spectro! The thing is it could have been one of the sample sticks that I did and tossed after spectro'ing them. While the numbers jive with everything, let's hold off on mixing it up until I can verify it.

Harp - you never did a 5:1 LW did you?

I'll mix one up in the am tomorrow for measurements tomorrow and Thursday.

And again, if you feel you need a lighter screen, CGiv is a great option as well!

mech

[Harpmaker]

mechman wrote:

Harp - you never did a 5:1 LW did you?

Nope, not yet. I was just getting things going again in my shop (which is 50 yards from the house) when the worst storm of the winter hit here. Looks like Thursday before I can start spraying again.

[mechman]

Here it is...

LW 5:1

184 188 186
0.311 0.331 49.6
75.8 -1.33 0.24

Color Temp of 6578.7 so it's only ~74 degrees away from neutral.

That's pretty good yet darker than LW 4:1 which came in 189 192 193.



I'll let it cure a day or two and check it again. These mixes that I'm doing lately are only 2.5oz. That may have something to do with it. It was a pretty accurate measurement though.

My assessment? Mix it up! Add a little water too to help roll the paint. I added roughly 2oz of water back when I was mixing up a pint. Helps to roll and buys you time to get rid of roller marks. Unless you want to go lighter. Then go with CGiv.

I'd like to see pics of the roller marks if you get a chance.

mech

[cdcstl]

Thanks for your testing. Since this is DIY, I took matters into my own hands and roller.
First, I tried the LW 5:1 but I made the mistake of getting LW matte, thinking it would increase the gain. It did but also increased the screen texture. Not good.

What I ended up with is

5 parts of BM "White Chalk" ( per tiddler on AVS, N9 )
2 parts Kilz2
1 part HE558
1 part Flowtron

I used the two roller method described by tiddler on AVS. That plus the Flowtron really smoothed the paint. I hardly can see any roller marks.
I haven't calibrated yet. But this has produced a brighter image. With my setup the BW WM 5:1
seemed a little too dark.
I have no idea if this is neutral. Based on your testing, I might try the LW 5:1 with the FLowtron & the two roller method to smooth the texture I saw the first time.

[mechman]

A couple things. First ditch the kilz2. Second ditch the Floetrol. I've heard only bad things about it. Use water instead.

With regards to the two roller method, that's fine if you want to over complicate things (some folks have a habit of doing this)! One roller is all you need!


mech

[wbassett]

cdcstl wrote:

Thanks for your testing. Since this is DIY, I took matters into my own hands and roller.
First, I tried the LW 5:1 but I made the mistake of getting LW matte, thinking it would increase the gain. It did but also increased the screen texture. Not good.

What I ended up with is

5 parts of BM "White Chalk" ( per tiddler on AVS, N9 )
2 parts Kilz2
1 part HE558
1 part Flowtron

I used the two roller method described by tiddler on AVS. That plus the Flowtron really smoothed the paint. I hardly can see any roller marks.
I haven't calibrated yet. But this has produced a brighter image. With my setup the BW WM 5:1
seemed a little too dark.
I have no idea if this is neutral. Based on your testing, I might try the LW 5:1 with the FLowtron & the two roller method to smooth the texture I saw the first time.

Bottom line cdcstl is if the two roller method worked for you, that's all that matters

I haven't had any problems at all rolling any of my panels with just a single roller, but like I said if that worked for you then great!.

Question, when you say 'parts', can you break that down into ounces? Are you still using the original 8ounces of the aluminum? If so we can work out what your total ratio is.

It sounds like you're happy now though right?

[cdcstl]

I mixed about 40oz of the "White Chalk", 8oz HE558, 16oz Kilz2, and about 4oz Floetrol. Yes, I like the image better. Per mechman's comment on the two roller, it & the Floetrol helped me. I used water with the LW 5:1. For me, I got a better result with the Floetrol & the two rollers.

So far I like the results but time will tell. I seem to enjoy the trial & error, trial & error, etc., etc., etc..