Further Investigations Part II

[muzz]

Just the name on the container is a bit scary..

"Skylighter" !!

heheheh
That could make for some scary moments!

[bidzer]

At least you'll have one big 4th of July Mech!!! LOL

[Harpmaker]

bidzer wrote:

At least you'll have one big 4th of July Mech!!! LOL

We can only hope it's on purpose!

[mechman]

I'm gonna throw some more of the aluminum powder numbers out as well. Again, I will reformat these posts so that they're easier to read. For now I'm just trying to get them up before I run out the door to work.

Aluminum Topcoat Experiment (Behr 780 and aluminum) over Designer White

199 199 190
0.320 0.341 56.9
80.1 -1.71 4.77

SW Gray Screen Minwax and Aluminum (cannot recall ratios)

217 219 218
0.312 0.330 70.2
87.1 -0.67 0.02

(I may have to look into this again! )

SW Gray Screen 1 tbsp Alum and Minwax Polycrylic poly

211 214 215
0.310 0.328 67.0
85.5 -0.74 -0.85

4oz Winter Mist 2oz Poly 2oz H2O 3 tbsp Alum

200 206 209
0.307 0.326 60.9
82.3 -1.29 -2.08

Another sample of SW Gray Screen, Alum, and poly

216 218 218
0.311 0.329 69.6
86.8 -0.65 -0.15

Maybe this might be a way to get to N9?

This is an off the wall... Violet Disguise and Ti (Titanium)

229 229 232
0.311 0.326 78.5
91.0 0.76 -1.51

Some of these numbers really shock me as I do not recall any of my trial mixes coming close to neutral as the SW Gray Screen numbers are showing now. And before anyone gets their hopes up, this was all tested with spherical aluminum which did not give the type of effect that we were looking for. I'm planning on more tests with some flakes shortly.

The titanium was a bit of a bust as it really wasn't as reflective as aluminum and it was a bit more coarse - for lack of a better term. HoloDisplays uses titanium in their HoloVega though so maybe it should be explored further as well.

mech

[mechman]

So I think I've got some thoughts regarding getting Black Widow up to the 215 RGB area. I'm gonna test that out next week and report back. I'm also going to continue my quest for gain measurements. That has been something that I have been working on for the last couple weeks and have run into numerous road blocks along the way.

Another thing that may have to be looked at is the medium and coarse versions of AAA.

Any thoughts?

I kind of got side tracked last week and never got around to updating the post above and I took magnified shots of some of them as well that I'll be posting.

mech

[Harpmaker]

It all sounds good mech! Especially trying the other two granulations of AAA. Like I always say, great minds run in the same gutter.

[wbassett]

mechman wrote:

So I think I've got some thoughts regarding getting Black Widow up to the 215 RGB area. I'm gonna test that out next week and report back. I'm also going to continue my quest for gain measurements. That has been something that I have been working on for the last couple weeks and have run into numerous road blocks along the way.

Another thing that may have to be looked at is the medium and coarse versions of AAA.

Any thoughts?

I kind of got side tracked last week and never got around to updating the post above and I took magnified shots of some of them as well that I'll be posting.

mech

One thought I had was it might be a fun experiment to try 4oz of fine and 4oz of medium. I would think course would be too grainy, but who knows.

[mechman]

For those of you watching the forums today I have been trying all day to get a lighter mix and the best I've seem to be able to come up with is the 4:1:1 mix.

For reference the original 4:1 Auto Air Black Widow

186 186 186
0.312 0.329 49.1
75.5 -0.06 -0.08
6503

These next measurements are from the same exact samples as posted previously in this thread. I'm sure they're cured up by now.

The 3:1 mix

183 183 183
0.313 0.330 47.3
74.4 -0.05 0.20
6503

The 3:1:1 mix with the last being Valspar Flat Ultra White

192 192 192
0.313 0.329 52.5
77.6 -0.09 0.05
6503

And the 4:1:1 mix

198 199 199
0.312 0.329 56.9
80.1 -0.28 -0.23
6545

I spent almost the whole day mixing up different concoctions of paint to try and get it lighter. All of them failed the neutral test. Here are the different bases I've tried.

249 232 225
248 226 218

It took me several trials to get to these numbers using a flat white and the tints I have. And both of these attempts failed to produce a neutral aluminum mix. Even if they did, I don't think it would have resulted in anything lighter than the 4:1:1 formula. Here are the numbers of the aluminum mixes

195 202 210
0.302 0.319 58.5
81.0 -0.86 -4.80
7249

194 198 201
0.307 0.325 56.2
79.7 -0.88 -2.01
6833

As I looked at these I knew we could get them into neutral, but as I looked at them I knew there was no way we could get them lighter. But at least we've hit N8. And if it performs like an N9's whites and a N8's blacks, then we have a winner.

What's next? Well I have to pick up some more Valspar Flat Ultra White. And then I'll mix up enough of each of the working formulas to paint a panel and then we'll test them further. If they stay neutral and give a good image, we'll add them to the list.

mech

[mechman]

Here are some promised magnifications:

Gray Screen + Minwax Polycrylic + Raw Aluminum spheres 60X



200X



See why I gave up on that?

And here are some from the three new contenders.

4:1:1 60x



4:1:1 200x



3:1 60x



3:1 200x



3:1:1 60x



3:1:1 200x



One thing to keep in mind as you view these is that these are magnifications of sample dots of paint. I don't think it's indicative of what you end up with when you roll a screen. Still, there is a bit of concern with regards to the 4:1:1 mix as it is a bit more paint than all the others. And it's also exciting to see how the 3:1 will perform...

mech

[tonywood]

Mech, it looks like BB and AAA needs to be 2:1, and Behr 4850 to wop 2:1 - so maybe if you have the paints around

2:1:2:1 = BB:AAA:4850:WOP = around 215,215,215 ? maybe

The only question here is if the mix has enough AAA in it

And man does the 4850 look like the best paint for a white screen ever?

[Harpmaker]

tonywood wrote:

Mech, it looks like BB and AAA needs to be 2:1 ...

Funny you should mention that...

Here is a Spectral Chart I just did of a BB/AAA 2:1 mix. I guess mech must have a better BB match than I do because this mix (with my ingredients) doesn't fall into the neutral range, but almost!

[mechman]

tonywood wrote:

Mech, it looks like BB and AAA needs to be 2:1, and Behr 4850 to wop 2:1 - so maybe if you have the paints around

2:1:2:1 = BB:AAA:4850:WOP = around 215,215,215 ? maybe

The only question here is if the mix has enough AAA in it

And man does the 4850 look like the best paint for a white screen ever?

I got the Behr WOP just for further investigations into what it is. And it's a mica based product that more than likely will create the same problems other mica based products do. They create color shifts due to refraction. Refraction versus reflection is key to this whole thing. Mica creates a prismatic effect as they are nothing more that tiny grains of sand - ie tiny prisms. It's easy to see that with magnified shots. Mica shows that when hit by light it creates a bunch of different colors - reds, greens and blues. Aluminum, on the other hand, reflects light. And it reflects back the same light that hits it without changing it. I have no intention of working with the WOP as it appears to have all the same characteristics of other micas. There may be some sort of mica based paint that does not do this. But we have yet to find it.

With regards to the amount of aluminum, Harp has some really good macro photos of a few different Black Widow mixes here. And I agree with his assessment that the HE558 formulations actually have more aluminum prevalent in their mixes. However, the jury still out as to whether it is a huge benefit or not. My WM/HE558 panel is darker than my BB/AAA panel. It exhibits darker blacks and yet the BB/AAA has better whites. So there's a bit of a trade off between the two.

Sooner or later I will be all caught up and have everything done but it seems like every week something new crops up. The last couple of weeks I had to run down some claims that a flat gray paint matches Black Widow. I could not recreate a flat gray paint matching BW. And I have to check out Dulux paint as well because one user says it doesn't work while another had great success with the same paint. Confusing at best! And then there's a whole slew of test being done with Canadian only paint. The value of that is questionable as it's only available in Canada.

I hope that by later this week I can get the rest of the panels painted and I can have some valid spectro readings of some various mixes. And then maybe by this time next week some photos.

As for Behr 4850, no I would not recommend it. Ever! After seeing exterior paints being recommended a lot recently I spent 5 minutes on google and came up with a whole slew of experts that say you should not use exterior paints on the inside. I trust those folks! If you want a white screen, I'd recommend Sherwin Williams Luminous White, Valspar Ultra Premium White, Behr Ultra Pure White (not the exterior!), Kilz2, etc. Out of all of them though, the only one that comes in neutral is the Kilz2. The rest all lack a bit of blue but Bill tells me white is very forgiving when it comes to neutrality. There's also Rosco Off Broadway White which was tested long ago and is said to be the best white out there. That will have to be ordered through the internet though.

As for getting Black Widow up to a N9 shade, I couldn't get any good results last week. I putzed with it for a day and a half and I think it's just not meant for me to do! On the bright side we have a solid N8 contender that if it works like our N7.5 final product it may give whites comparable to a N9. Keep the fingers crossed!

I hope I answered any questions you had floating around!

mech

[mechman]

For all you Home Depot folks, I'll have some additional stuff here this week as well.

I tested both the 4850 (exterior) and 1850 (interior) paints. They were both tinted Bermuda Beige and both came in as good matches. However, the 4850 (exterior) did not test out as a good base for Black Widow. It works fine aluminum wise - it doesn't hide the aluminum - but it definitely is not neutral. The 1850 however came out just fine. Why? I don't know but I would assume all the nasty additives in exterior paints are causing the problems. I have a panel of the 4850 already painted up. I hope to get the 1850 this week. And I'll get some photos. I'll have the readings up here in this thread tomorrow hopefully.

mech

[tonywood]

Does someone have a Spectral Chart of Behr 1850? The reason I said WOP is that it has a blue push and it seems that 4850 needs a little blue push

[tweakophyte]

Hi-

Good stuff... still awaiting your results.

PS Mech, is it true you are banned from AVS?

[mechman]

tonywood wrote:

Does someone have a Spectral Chart of Behr 1850? The reason I said WOP is that it has a blue push and it seems that 4850 needs a little blue push

WOP actually has the same red push that 4850 does. That's just looking at the
RGB numbers. I'll get some spectrums later this week.

mech

[wbassett]

tonywood wrote:

Does someone have a Spectral Chart of Behr 1850? The reason I said WOP is that it has a blue push and it seems that 4850 needs a little blue push

Tony one thing to keep in mind is when it comes to a color push, yes that can be balanced out but refraction can't. When a color leans one way or another it is having an affect on all colors. So when something leans blue, it also affects reds, greens, and everything else too. So we can balance out the screen base color, but then we still have a problem with pearlescence and mica's causing refraction. That really is the reason why I am not a fan of mica's or pearls as they are often called.

If Behr is the only thing you have available to you, then go with what you have. It is definitely better than cheap paint like Walmart's house brand, but it isn't the best paint out there either. Surprising to most people is that the cost of some of the better quality paints isn't much more if any difference between them and Behr. If you can roll without roller marks with any paint, then it really doesn't matter as much as long as the color balance is good. If a person does have problems with roller marks, (I wouldn't recommend they do any home improvement work! Painting a screen shouldn't be any harder than painting a room) then that person will be amazed at the results they get by switching brands.

A lot of people also over look the actual roller too. Not the roller cover... but the roller itself. Most people use those cheap rollers that come in a kit that includes some roller covers, a tray, and a roller. They are okay, but better quality rollers are sturdier and don't flex as much. That allows more even pressure across the roller cover itself.

I personally haven't had any issues with Behr paints, but then again I've been remodeling and painting house interiors for around 20 years now too. Not professionally or anything like that, just various places we have lived.

So back to topic, with pearls we can get the base balanced but then we still have to deal with refraction. To me it's so much easier to go with non-interference methods and just avoid the hassle altogether.

[mechman]

Data data data....

First the Behr spectral curves



And the numbers

RGB
xyY
L*ab
Color temp

Behr 4850 Bermuda Beige Match

226 210 201
0.336 0.340 68.4
86.2 5.75 7.58
no need for a color temp

Behr 4850 Black Widow Attempt

210 201 196
0.324 0.335 59.6
81.6 2.06 3.80
5923.4

Behr 1850 Bermuda Beige match

233 214 203
0.335 0.341 69.6
86.8 4.83 7.71
no need

Behr 1850 Black Widow Attempt

193 193 192
0.313 0.330 53.2
78.0 -0.08 0.40
6453.5

I'll consider the 1850 a keeper and will add it to the panel list. If it passes muster, we'll add it to the list. As for the 4850, it will follow the lifeline of other failed paints - open can, let it dry out and toss it. So there's another solid reason, the first being health, to stay away from exterior paints! The white 4850 worked well as an additive in the 4:1:1 mix but I'm abandoning that for obvious reasons.



mech

[mechman]

The 3:1:1 panel

189 190 190
0.313 0.329 51.4
76.9 -0.19 0.09
6547.6