Further Investigations Part II

**mechman** · **03-03-08, 04:51 PM**

Black Widow is a finished product. So where do we go from here? There's been a lot of talk about it being to dark of a mix so after a week of doing nothing it's time to start putzing with it again!

I learned previously that adding Valspar Flat Ultra White to one of the previous trial mixes, that it had no effect upon the L*ab values or the xyY values. It basically just 'lightened' the mix. So I mixed up a 4:1:1 combination of Bermuda Beige:Valspar FUW:Auto Air Aluminum and a 3:1:1 of the same.

I'm also tinkering with a straight 3:1 combination of AAA and Bermuda Beige.

I have three samples of each drying and should have some numbers for them later tonight.

mech

**cdcstl** · **03-03-08, 05:41 PM**

Are you going to make up any lighter mixes using HE588? Please?

**mechman** · **03-03-08, 05:45 PM**

I'm gonna try....

mech

**mechman** · **03-03-08, 08:52 PM**

Three spectro readings:

4:1:1 Bermuda Beige : Auto Air Aluminum : Valspar Flat Ultra White (FUW)

197 198 198
0.312 0.329 56.3
79.8 -0.25 -0.29

3:1 Bermuda Beige : Auto Air Aluminum

183 183 182
0.313 0.329 47.2
74.3 0.00 0.17

3:1:1 Bermuda Beige : Auto Air Aluminum : Valspar Flat Ultra White (FUW)

191 191 191
0.312 0.329 52.2
77.4 -0.08 -0.08

In layman's terms, I think we hit the trifecta! So we took a completely neutral mix and added a white - which I have yet to measure any white neutral - and the result is a lighter more neutral mix.

So the question is, how light can we go? I'm thinking along the lines of a 2:2:1 (Bermuda : FUW : Auto Air) or a 1:3:1 (Bermuda : FUW : Auto Air).

I know that some of you are thinking about seeing full panels. But that will have to wait as my source of Auto Air Aluminum has run out since this mix was announced. At least in the convenient 4oz bottle size. Time to buy a quart I guess.

I'm curious as to whether or not we can achieve some kind of a balance for the lower lumen crowd.

As always I'm open to any input.

mech

**mechman** · **03-03-08, 08:57 PM**

Quote:

cdcstl wrote:

Are you going to make up any lighter mixes using HE588? Please?

Actual after responding to this, I realized that you're using the Luminous White 6:1 ratio. I really doubt I'd be able to get lighter than that.

Luminous White : HE558 6:1

213 215 214
0.312 0.331 67.8
85.9 -1.21 0.31

mech

**cynical2** · **03-03-08, 09:13 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Three spectro readings:

4:1:1 Bermuda Beige : Auto Air Aluminum : Valspar Flat Ultra White (FUW)

197 198 198
0.312 0.329 56.3
79.8 -0.25 -0.29

3:1 Bermuda Beige : Auto Air Aluminum

183 183 182
0.313 0.329 47.2
74.3 0.00 0.17

3:1:1 Bermuda Beige : Auto Air Aluminum : Valspar Flat Ultra White (FUW)

191 191 191
0.312 0.329 52.2
77.4 -0.08 -0.08

In layman's terms, I think we hit the trifecta! So we took a completely neutral mix and added a white - which I have yet to measure any white neutral - and the result is a lighter more neutral mix.

So the question is, how light can we go? I'm thinking along the lines of a 2:2:1 (Bermuda : FUW : Auto Air) or a 1:3:1 (Bermuda : FUW : Auto Air).

I know that some of you are thinking about seeing full panels. But that will have to wait as my source of Auto Air Aluminum has run out since this mix was announced. At least in the convenient 4oz bottle size. Time to buy a quart I guess.

I'm curious as to whether or not we can achieve some kind of a balance for the lower lumen crowd.

As always I'm open to any input.

mech

Wow!

Have you started with a white base and then tinted it to find the appropriate color to make BW neutral? In other words, do the same thing as last time...only instead of starting with Winter Mist (and ending up at Bermuda Beige), you'd start with White and end up with the lightest possible neutral-causing base. The same process would be followed, since you have it perfected.

At least, I think you started with W Mist...but maybe I'm

**mechman** · **03-03-08, 09:35 PM**

Quote:

cynical2 wrote:

Wow!

Have you started with a white base and then tinted it to find the appropriate color to make BW neutral? In other words, do the same thing as last time...only instead of starting with Winter Mist (and ending up at Bermuda Beige), you'd start with White and end up with the lightest possible neutral-causing base. The same process would be followed, since you have it perfected.

At least, I think you started with W Mist...but maybe I'm

Actually I just mixed Bermuda Beige, Auto Air, and Valspar Flat Ultra White. The last two kind of shocked me but also confirmed a suspicion I had. I'm thinking a 1 part Bermuda Beige, 1 part Auto Air and 3 part FUW will work. Then again I could be just plain silly! I'm off to the garage now to mix that up as well as a 1:1:2.

mech

**mechman** · **03-03-08, 10:37 PM**

Some photos:

One minute I'm talking about prospects, the next minute they're drying!

mech

**mechman** · **03-03-08, 11:27 PM**

1:1:3 BB:AAA:FUW

196 200 203
0.308 0.326 57.4
80.4 -0.86 -1.80

1:1:2 BB:AAA:FUW

188 192 195
0.307 0.325 52.5
77.6 -0.85 -2.04

2:1:2 BB:AAA:FUW

202 202 202
0.313 0.330 59.2
81.4 -0.14 0.34

1 outta three ain't bad. I think I'll sleep on this while they cure some. For those of you that don't understand these numbers I'll explain tomorrow.

mech

**mechman** · **03-04-08, 02:27 PM**

Some numbers today after every thing's had a night to cure.

AAA = Auto Air Aluminum
BB = Bermuda Beige
FUW = Valspar Flat Ultra White

4:1:1 BB:AAA:FUW

197 198 198
0.312 0.328 56.3
79.8 -0.27 -0.36

3:1 BB:AAA

182 182 182
0.313 0.329 46.9
74.1 -0.02 0.14

3:1:1 BB:AAA:FUW

191 192 192
0.312 0.329 52.4
77.5 -0.12 -0.17

2:1:2 BB:AAA:FUW

193 194 195
0.311 0.328 53.9
78.4 -0.30 -0.44

1:1:2 BB:AAA:FUW

188 192 195
0.307 0.325 52.4
77.5 -0.90 -2.08

1:1:3 BB:AAA:FUW

196 200 203
0.308 0.326 57.6
80.5 -0.88 -1.77

So my experiments from last night have obviously fizzled! But I think that it's safe to say that if someone is looking for a N8 version of BW -Auto Air the 4:1:1 seems to be it.

The numbers. Bill could really do a much better job of this than me but her goes. The first three numbers are RGB or Red Green Blue. I think it's rather self explanatory but if you need more on this please ask. The second two sets of numbers are coordinates in color space. The x/y and the a/b numbers are coordinate plots and the L and Y are the Luminance plot. In all of the measurements I have done I almost always post them as above.

RGB
xyY
L*ab

Mainly because that's the order that I get them from BabelColor.

The x and y numbers need to correspond to the particular point in color space that D65 resides - 0.312 and 0.329. sometimes you will see 0.312 stated as 0.313 because the actual value is 0.312730.

The a and b numbers need to be as close to zero as possible.

The luminance values are just that, luminance values. They tell you how light or dark the measured item is.

Any questions?

mech

**mechman** · **03-04-08, 02:36 PM**

Looking at those numbers it appears that I'll have three candidates for panels. It will all have to wait until more Auto Air arrives though as I'm pretty much out now - 3oz left. If you want the gist of what we're trying to accomplish, it's having several shades of this for different environments. Some folks don't like muddy whites and some don't like washed out blacks. Coming up with a screen that has both excellent blacks in ambient light and white whites is the Holy Grail of screens.

mech

**bidzer** · **03-04-08, 02:51 PM**

I didn't know you had started up a new thread!!!! So the lab is once again alive!!!! What lumen crowd would you say the N8/BW is for?

**03-04-08, 02:58 PM**

I just ordered 16 oz of AAA (hopefully enough to do my 120" screen). I am looking forward to the results of your tinkering.

BTW - my theater room is my 1 1/2 year old's playroom during the day. Any concern with the aluminum additive to kids?

**cynical2** · **03-04-08, 04:47 PM**

Quote:

slybarman wrote:

I just ordered 16 oz of AAA (hopefully enough to do my 120" screen). I am looking forward to the results of your tinkering.

BTW - my theater room is my 1 1/2 year old's playroom during the day. Any concern with the aluminum additive to kids?

First, welcome to the Shack!

Awesome that you are trying BW...you will love it!

It's definitely safe for kids...we check the MSDS sheets to make sure it's safe before recommending it. The AAA is, as I understand it, paint for airbrushing...nothing dangerous about it.

**mechman** · **03-04-08, 05:48 PM**

Hey slybarman! Welcome!

What are you looking for in a screen? You should start a new thread and throw out some room specs to go with it!

(as mech runs out the door to go to a hockey game)

mech

**03-04-08, 06:39 PM**

Thank you both for the welcome. The N8 BW sounds promising. I'll see how it does for the first couple guinea pigs. I have also stumbled across the DIY Theatres kit in the threads here on the shack. Any idea how BW compares against their product?

Anyhow - My screen will be 120". Projector is Panasonic AX-200U. Throw distance and seating distance are both about 14.5'. Room is light controlled as far as the windows, etc, but the ceiling and walls are pretty light.

**wbassett** · **03-04-08, 10:58 PM**

yes welcome to the Shack slybarman! I think we've corresponded elsewhere

**03-05-08, 05:31 AM**

Yes sir! I appreciate the information you shared with me.

Mech pointed me over to this forum with regard to BW and I am interested to see how 4:1:1 mix shapes up.

**mechman** · **03-05-08, 01:09 PM**

Well the one that actually looks better and is a bit lighter than the original is the 3:1:1.

I did very little yesterday and it's back to work today, so I'm in a holding pattern again until next week.

I had to paint another HE558 panel for comparisons to Auto Air Aluminum. I did however attempt to apply the same method using behr 4850 flat white. The numbers

This is 3:1:1 with Bermuda Beige:Auto Air:Behr 4850

194 193 192
0.314 0.330 53.4
78.1 0.14 0.50
6410.4

And the numbers from Valspar's Flat Ultra White in the 3:1:1 mix are this:

191 192 192
0.312 0.329 52.4
77.5 -0.12 -0.17
6547.1

The numbers for Behr 4850

250 250 245
0.315 0.334 95.4
98.2 -0.97 2.26
6315.1

It has to be the brightest whites I've seen!

The next experiment was Behr White Opal Pearlescent. I put a small dab on a panel that has one coat of Kilz2 on it. What it was originally? I don't know. But we can clearly draw some conclusions from reading the base numbers and then the WOP numbers on top.

The base

237 237 231
0.316 0.335 84.3
93.6 -1.22 2.73

WOP - This is probably the first time I've come across a paint that has given me completely wacky numbers. Therefore I divided the sample and took measurements from 5 spots. I have never seen that much of a difference before! Usually I'll see a change of about .01 in either an a or b. But never anything this crazy!

Keep in mind that I'm not saying that this cannot be used! Especially when it's mixed heavily with something else! Just throwing numbers out!

Left upper side

213 211 203
0.320 0.339 65.2
84.6 -0.83 4.57

bottom left side

199 195 186
0.322 0.340 54.9
79.0 -0.28 4.93

dead center (where it's thickest)

198 196 189
0.319 0.338 55.3
79.2 -0.82 3.76

lower right

201 199 191
0.320 0.339 56.9
80.1 -0.76 4.24

upper right

213 209 200
0.322 0.340 64.1
84.0 -0.68 5.28

mech

**mechman** · **03-05-08, 01:36 PM**

Here's a magnification of WOP and photos of the test samples.

mech

**Prof.** · **03-05-08, 07:18 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Well the one that actually looks better and is a bit lighter than the original is the 3:1:1.

So mech..are you saying that the 3:1:1 mix, would be the better choice for a totally light controlled, dedicated theatre, such as my own?

Received the sample ok..thanks.

.

**mechman** · **03-05-08, 07:35 PM**

Prof.

At this point, for a totally light controlled room, I'd go with the 3:1:1 mix as it keeps the aluminum content the same. If you think it's to dark you can go a shade lighter with the 4:1:1.

I'm striving to get something equivalent to the Luminous White:HE558 6:1 ratio for AAA. And at this point I'm unsure whether it can be done.

mech

**Prof.** · **03-05-08, 07:49 PM**

Just on the point of the white additive..Would not the white sealer/ under coat (in your case the Kilz2) be suitable.?.
The undercoat I'll be using is a very bright white..
Have you tried the Kilz2 as the additional white?

**mechman** · **03-05-08, 09:49 PM**

No I haven't. Just the standard flat white base. The white I'm using is a bit 'whiter' than my primer. And the primer is more neutral than my flat white... am I making sense?

Regardless Proff, I'd think that the primer you have would work fine! Give it a shot and send me a sample so I can spectro it!

mech

**mechman** · **03-08-08, 11:35 AM**

I promised muzz that I would post some of the info regarding experiments with some aluminum powder that I purchased.

These investigations proved fruitless for me for two reasons. We couldn't achieve the same results as we had with HE558. And it's not as cost effective as either of the two current Black Widow compilations. But I do agree with muzz and Harp that we should post this stuff, just in case someone wants to travel down this road again.

To start the aluminum I bought is meant for fireworks. Meaning it's got a pretty scary looking MSDS sheet! I originally purchased both a pound of the spherical aluminum and a pound of the flakes. Unfortunately the flakes were back ordered so I changed it to Titanium (more on that later).

The problems I had with using straight aluminum was that we couldn't find a good match for a base to mix it with to give us a neutral paint. Another problem wasa that we weren't seeing the same kind of performance using straight aluminum as opposed to HE558. Remember, this was before benven told us about Auto Air and we found Bermuda Beige!

The original magnification of a HE558 PFG test at 200x

A magnification of one of the aluminum powder mixes:

More to come....

mech

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