DULUX Exterior Paint vs. Black Widow

**mechman** · **03-10-08, 11:05 PM**

A lot has been said of this paint elsewhere. That it contains 'metallics', that it rivals Black Widow, etc. Well here at the Shack things are done precisely!

We have the equipment and we know how to use it!

So to put this myth to rest I procured a gallon of DULUX Exterior Flat tinted 'Veil'. Why a gallon? Because that's the only way they sell this stuff in here in Minny. Starting out great!

The first thing I noticed when the clerk grabbed the can of paint was the amount of dust on it. There was a lot! Granted it's winter here so they don't sell a lot of exterior paint here now but I had to ask. "When's the last time you sold a gallon of this stuff?" "The DULUX Exterior?" "Yeah." "I don't recall ever selling any of it." Nice!

Here it is:

I used a previous panel for this and I primed it with two coats of Kilz2 and then applied three coats of DULUX Exterior Flat tinted 'Veil'. The first four coats were applied yesterday and the last this morning around 9:30am. It's cured for over 11 hours. Here are the spectrophotometer readings directly from each panel:

DULUX Exterior Flat tinted 'Veil'
187 187 186
0.314 0.329 49.6
75.8 0.23 0.22

Black Widow (AAA version)
189 190 190
0.312 0.329 51.2
76.8 -0.28 -0.29

You can quickly tell that the DULUX is neutral and very slightly darker. But looking at the two panels side by side and you'd think they were exact matches.

The claims being made are that the DULUX matches the Black Widow white for white and black for black.

The Equipment

Mitsubishi HC3000U reset to factory defaults and color temp to 6500K. No brightness or contrast calibration done!

The content is both a 100% white field and the ANSI contrast pattern from Get Gray. The DVD player is the Toshiba HD-A2 and it is fed to the pj via HDMI.

The camera is a Olympus Evolt E-500. Flash shut off and everything on auto. It was set up on a tripod and the shutter was fired via remote. I used a WhiBal card for color balancing (not for decoration....). You can find out more on how I utilize a WhiBal to get the photos color accurate here.

Here's a WhiBal shot that I used to balance the photos.

And yes those are the contenders... can you guess which is which? We hate being right! But it's a bi-product of endless research and development and non stop testing. This bit of testing has set back the development of a lighter shade of Black Widow a full week or more! But there was a contention that we hadn't done our homework. We did!

mech

**mechman** · **03-10-08, 11:06 PM**

Ok as I've said these two panels are pretty much identical gray wise. And yet under a 100% white field we get these results:

That is Black Widow on the left obviously!

The same is being said of Black Widow's viewing cone. That it's way too much of an issue! Well when you're comparing it to something of equal color:

Hmmmmm.... viewing angle is defined as the point off- axis at which gain drops 50%. Now I'm no eyeball measurer but I can tell you that the viewing angle of these two panels, which are virtually identical in color, is probably the same! Viewing cone is basically double the viewing angle by the way. With this always comes the demands for gain values as well. I don't know and unlike others I will not guess! That would be ridiculous! Gain is more or less a by product of the olden days of projectors when they actually needed the gain to boost the lack of lumens. Nowadays I think it's less important and yet the same folks are always looking for it.

I think we've covered whites now let's compare blacks. Here are various thumbnails that you can click and view at your leisure. Blacks of the two virtually identical gray screens are... pretty much identical!

I think this pretty much wraps it up. I can do more if more is needed but I think these few pics beat this one to death.

We can conclusively say that a flat exterior neutral gray of the same shade as Black Widow will perform no where near Black Widow's level!

mech

**wbassett** · **03-11-08, 12:30 AM**

Sadly it looks like one last thing needs to be confirmed, and it has nothing to do with test patterns, sanctioned ones or ones a person felt they had to recreate.

Now the line is that you didn't use the same thing. His has a little Canadian Maple leaf on it, obviously the Canadian version. Nothing that the MSDS or a quick call can't resolve if these two are indeed the same. Even if that ends up showing they are the same but just different labels for different countries I'm sure something else will come up, like maybe since you said they blew the dust off of it then it was old paint. Always seems to be something.

I'll probably edit this post in time, but I had to say something since everything we show and back up gets hammered elsewhere.

Right now as far as I know, there is only one person having some trouble with his BW screen and I think it's a calibration issue and I'm working with him on it. If he gets the projector calibrated and in the right mode and is happy, so far this will be batting 1000 then.

Thanks for the comparison mech, I know that aren't with 'specially sanctioned' custom made images, but I guess we'll have to just make do with official test patterns designed and used for calibration and testing. Someday maybe we'll be up to standards.

**mechman** · **03-11-08, 09:34 AM**

Quote:

wbassett wrote:

Sadly it looks like one last thing needs to be confirmed, and it has nothing to do with test patterns, sanctioned ones or ones a person felt they had to recreate.

Now the line is that you didn't use the same thing. His has a little Canadian Maple leaf on it, obviously the Canadian version. Nothing that the MSDS or a quick call can't resolve if these two are indeed the same. Even if that ends up showing they are the same but just different labels for different countries I'm sure something else will come up, like maybe since you said they blew the dust off of it then it was old paint. Always seems to be something.

I'll probably edit this post in time, but I had to say something since everything we show and back up gets hammered elsewhere.

Right now as far as I know, there is only one person having some trouble with his BW screen and I think it's a calibration issue and I'm working with him on it. If he gets the projector calibrated and in the right mode and is happy, so far this will be batting 1000 then.

Thanks for the comparison mech, I know that aren't with 'specially sanctioned' custom made images, but I guess we'll have to just make do with official test patterns designed and used for calibration and testing. Someday maybe we'll be up to standards.

Specially sanctioned images (which can be easily edited) are nothing more than the whim. The ANSI shots from a calibration DVD show conclusively that DULUX, while being a nice neutral gray, cannot hold it's own against Black Widow.

As for the paint being different, we knew that would come as it always has in the past...

Personally, with the enormous difference being shown between the two white wise. I question the motives and the integrity! And if those are the standards, then I care not to be a part!

mech

**mechman** · **03-11-08, 09:37 AM**

I'd like to add that it's simply amazing how the same folks do the same things over and over and over...

For instance, this individual said the paint was as I bought 'DULUX Exterior Flat'. Now he states that it is not the same, that it is DULUX Exterior Masonry, Stucco, and Siding. Why is it that folks hide things? I never trust folks that hide things!

mech

**mechman** · **03-11-08, 11:53 AM**

Here are some shots with no flash:

By the way, the WhiBal card used in this photo was not used as a prop! It was actually properly used!

And a WhiBal card when properly used in an image will give you a neutral result if one were to use a 'color picker' as their tool of choice.

And why I cannot use a flash shot to compare the colors of these panels:

It's the aluminum silly!

An interesting thing to note is the pattern at which light hits the screen from my front cans. And Black Widow still outperformed the DULUX!

mech

**wbassett** · **03-11-08, 11:46 PM**

Hey seeing that I'm the original champion of OTS neutral grays and still believe in them as an outstanding screen option, if BW failed it only would have permanantly convinced me matte and neutral was all that is needed. If a plain flat paint can do what BW does, I'll also be a happy camper because it makes things that much easier. If you think about it though, it really makes no sense what was said. How can an N7-N7.5 gray look the same as an N8-N8.5 gray? That's just not going to happen, it can't because of the laws of light and physics as well as how grays work.

So of course something different is happening, and that is the aluminum. Aluminum is very effective and efficient at reflecting light, and as stated in other threads it is often used as a silver plating substitute, as well as for use in mirrors. It reflects, not refracts so less energy is wasted and more is reflected back. I really don't know why that is a hard concept to understand.

**cynical2** · **03-12-08, 12:31 AM**

Well, as usual...outstanding job by mech!

Any time someone lays out an idea for something, mech is always willing to test it through readings and screenshots.

Also, as expected, BW comes through with flying colors! And, the ideas that Bill comes up with always seem to stand the test of time. Maybe someday people will give such ideas the benefit of the doubt in the future, based on the track record. OTS neutrals, neutral laminates, Black Widow...not a bad resume if you ask me.

OK, enough singing those guys' praises...I don't want them getting a big head.

Again, great job on the testing mech! This should prove things conclusively. It's easy to see that BW broadens the range of shades (from whitest white to blackest black) that the audience sees (higher perceived contrast ratio). Previously, it was shown against a lighter grey, and BW's whites were equal and the blacks were far superior. Now, it's been shown against a dark neutral of the same shade, and the blacks are equal and the whites are superior. The off-axis shots are also telling...even at (what appears to be) a fairly steep angle, the BW whites still hold their own when compared to the neutral grey.

My apologies, but I'm going somewhat

for a minute
I can't wait for the weather to break...since I already own an air compressor, I bought the same sprayer mech has so I can do HVLP spraying. OK, I kinda bought it...I ordered it, then has it shipped to my mother-in-law, who wrapped it and gave it to me for Christmas. I guess that's one way to avoid gift returns.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the conclusion regarding the feasibility of spraying BW instead of rolling. I need someone with more spray-painting experience than I have (none other than spray paint cans and one job with a Preval sprayer) to lay out the process. I'm definitely not the "last of the great paint rollers", so I'm hoping BW works equally well when sprayed and that I can get a nice uniform surface.

**wbassett** · **03-12-08, 09:57 AM**

To be honest Jim I'm not spraying because I think it will be 'better' than rolling, but for a couple other reasons...

Some people like spraying, and some are interested in spraying. A soup to nuts tutorial would be something really valuable. I know we have some basic intro stuff, but I think it would be good to have a full write up from start to finish. I'm covering the Wagner's and I'll redo the Preval, you guys can cover the HVLP compressor based pro units.
I'm painting my light weight test screen that's BOC. Spraying just makes more sense since this is light weight and rolling will probably push it around.

I am very interested to check out both sprayers. The Wide Shot really does seem better suited if only for the reason it will spray thick paints without the need for thinning. Harp is having some problems with his HVLP rig, so maybe we all will. If that's the case, I'm thinking the Wide Shot may work since it delivers more paint and thicker coverage. It looks to have the same type of oval spray pattern, so it will be fun to play with.

The HVLP's may be better for lighter and thinner coatings that you build up. Whether BW needs that, we'll soon find out. I'm also going to try a test panel a bit of a different way, we can bang that around Friday night and see if it's even worth it.

**mechman** · **03-12-08, 04:46 PM**

I, for one, canno wait for the weather to warm up so I can spray it! Harp says that the AAA version sprays just fine so that's where I'll start. I'll do a panel of that and compare it to my current rolled panels and see if it makes a huge difference - all with photos of course! And I'll let that be my judge for which version I'll incorporate into my theater. I'm hoping to start within a few weeks.

mech

**mechman** · **03-12-08, 04:49 PM**

Quote:

wbassett wrote:

Hey seeing that I'm the original champion of OTS neutral grays and still believe in them as an outstanding screen option, if BW failed it only would have permanantly convinced me matte and neutral was all that is needed. If a plain flat paint can do what BW does, I'll also be a happy camper because it makes things that much easier. If you think about it though, it really makes no sense what was said. How can an N7-N7.5 gray look the same as an N8-N8.5 gray? That's just not going to happen, it can't because of the laws of light and physics as well as how grays work.

So of course something different is happening, and that is the aluminum. Aluminum is very effective and efficient at reflecting light, and as stated in other threads it is often used as a silver plating substitute, as well as for use in mirrors. It reflects, not refracts so less energy is wasted and more is reflected back. I really don't know why that is a hard concept to understand.

Why is this so tough for folks to understand? I mean people who actually are looked up to in the DIY screen world can't understand this! They talk of sheen and gloss...

It's flat paint and aluminum folks!

mech

**muzz** · **03-12-08, 06:20 PM**

Yeah...........

Really difficult concept...for some folks I guess....

**Harpmaker** · **03-12-08, 08:10 PM**

To be fair guys, the BW mixes contain either 20% or 25% aluminum paint; if that paint had a glossy finish by itself it could indeed add some amount of gloss to the total mix. The fact of the matter is that they don't. Maybe they just don't believe us.

**mechman** · **03-12-08, 10:16 PM**

I believe the Auto Air aluminum Fine is a base paint though. Meant to be top coated and then clear coated. While I have yet to see an actual MSDS on it (can't find one), I think the contents are just aluminum and some sort of transfer medium.

mech

**mechman** · **03-12-08, 11:14 PM**

I emailed them for a copy of the MSDS. I'll post it here when it arrives.

mech

**wbassett** · **03-13-08, 07:42 AM**

Quote:

Harpmaker wrote:

To be fair guys, the BW mixes contain either 20% or 25% aluminum paint; if that paint had a glossy finish by itself it could indeed add some amount of gloss to the total mix. The fact of the matter is that they don't. Maybe they just don't believe us.

It just seems to be one person with the issue. Maybe it is the brand/base that's the difference, but I still cannot believe that an N7.5 gray will perform the same and an N8 or N8.5 shade. If this were a bunch of people having the same problem or reporting back the same thing, then it definitely would need some serious investigation. Because I don't know right now what the difference is between what he's getting and using and what we are getting and using, the safe thing to say would be steer clear of Dulux for this application.

In case people didn't know this, Valspar isn't exclusive to Lowes, and Olympic is from the same company as PPG. So if there isn't a Lowes around, there most likely is a paint shop that carries one of those two brands.

**wbassett** · **03-13-08, 07:42 AM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

I believe the Auto Air aluminum Fine is a base paint though. Meant to be top coated and then clear coated. While I have yet to see an actual MSDS on it (can't find one), I think the contents are just aluminum and some sort of transfer medium.

mech

That is my understanding too.

**mechman** · **03-14-08, 08:14 AM**

I see my Dulux buddy has two accounts now... Can you say transparent! lol! Or maybe it's the person in the cubicle next to him!

mech

**jimwhite** · **03-14-08, 10:51 AM**

Quote:

I see my Dulux buddy has two accounts now...

oh, good grief!

**muzz** · **03-14-08, 12:16 PM**

Locked!!

**benven** · **03-14-08, 03:51 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Why is this so tough for folks to understand? I mean people who actually are looked up to in the DIY screen world can't understand this! They talk of sheen and gloss...

It's flat paint and aluminum folks!

mech

This is true to some extent. The AAA is aluminum in, what AA calls, their Transparent Base media. If you ever get your hands on this stuff and apply it, you will find that it has a semi gloss sheen to it. Not to add fuel to the fire, rather educating people. How much this would affect the sheen of the BW mix, I don't know.

**mechman** · **03-14-08, 04:19 PM**

I finally got the MSDS. The formula:

Quote:

Aqueous dispersion of organic pigment and acrylic
polymer.

So there's an acrylic polymer, but sheen and gloss? I disagree. I see more sheen and gloss on my sprayed Winter Mountain panel than I do on my rolled Black Widow panels. But I'm done defending it. It's the best diy ambient light screen currently. Will something better come along? Maybe. My money's on it coming out of this forum though.

mech

**Harpmaker** · **03-14-08, 09:49 PM**

Quote:

benven wrote:

This is true to some extent. The AAA is aluminum in, what AA calls, their Transparent Base media. If you ever get your hands on this stuff and apply it, you will find that it has a semi gloss sheen to it. Not to add fuel to the fire, rather educating people. How much this would affect the sheen of the BW mix, I don't know.

The sheen of AAA comes from the aluminum flakes in it. Any sheen from the AAA base acrylic, and there really isn't much, is overridden by the 80% flat latex paint in the BW mix. The dried paint on the AAA bottle looks like very dull weathered sheet aluminum, like an old aluminum fishing boat.

When sprayed, the BW AAA mix, using a Valspar interior flat latex, has so little visible aluminum in it I'm going to try a 3:1 mix, and maybe even a 2:1, to get the darker screen I'm after; although this might play hob with neutrality.

Screen Neutrality is one of the main things that has been made clear to me from doing the BW beta-testing. Neutrality is VERY important for people like me that don't have PJ's that have individual adjustment of red, blue and green settings (mine is just like an old TV, a single "hue" slider).

**benven** · **03-16-08, 08:51 PM**

Quote:

Harpmaker wrote:

The sheen of AAA comes from the aluminum flakes in it. Any sheen from the AAA base acrylic, and there really isn't much, is overridden by the 80% flat latex paint in the BW mix. The dried paint on the AAA bottle looks like very dull weathered sheet aluminum, like an old aluminum fishing boat.

Ummm....what are you trying to say? On one hand it is the aluminum that is creating the sheen, but what has dried in the bottle is dull??? I'm so confused.

Anyway, you don't have to believe me. The base has a semi gloss sheen to it. If you really want to know the truth, go buy some and try it.

**Harpmaker** · **03-16-08, 11:41 PM**

Quote:

benven wrote:

Ummm....what are you trying to say? On one hand it is the aluminum that is creating the sheen, but what has dried in the bottle is dull??? I'm so confused.

Yeah, that was about as clear as mud wasn't it... what I meant to say is that, IMO, the sheen that AAA has comes from the aluminum and not from the base, unless perhaps both have close to the same sheen.

The paint that has dried on my bottle looks very much like the dull side of a sheet of aluminum foil, not the shiny side, and the surface of the bottle itself is glossy.

Quote:

Anyway, you don't have to believe me. The base has a semi gloss sheen to it. If you really want to know the truth, go buy some and try it.

Agreed! The best way to know what this stuff looks like is to get some.

Advertisement