Do you recommend 2 surge power strips? - Page 4 - Home Theater Forum and Systems -

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post #31 of 33 Old 03-07-16, 05:59 PM
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Re: Do you recommend 2 surge power strips?

lcaillo wrote: View Post
Please read our posting rules very carefully. It is perfectly OK to differ and to argue a point, but let's be clear that we do not allow personal attacks nor vendor bashing, and some comments here are pushing that limit. We are here to post in a collaborative and friendly manner to share experience and understanding. One is always welcomed to his/her own opinion and relating personal experience is fine. We should not confuse opinion and personal experience with facts, however.

Show a little more humility and sensitivity for the views of others. Make your point, state your evidence and experience, but don't confuse what you believe with facts, and don't assume that what you believe is useful to others.
I apologize for flirting with the wrong side of this policy.

All of the points I chose to debate are taken directly from product descriptions published on the vendor's website. I chose to debate those claims based on research of the principles on which they are based, i.e. skin effect, dielectric absorption, twist rate, etc. I realize that the tone of my assertions is far too casual.

So, with that in mind, I shall illustrate my concerns with their claims below.
Skin Effect - this is the tendency of AC currents in solid conductors to flow near the surface of that conductor as a result of magnetic eddy currents. Essentially, a solid wire becomes a tube and the efficiency of the conductor is reduced. This effect is frequency and resistance dependent. Higher frequency results in stronger skin effect, as does higher resistance. In copper at 60Hz, the skin depth (the cross-sectional area in which the skin effect occurs) can be shown to be about 8.5mm. That is to say that a conductor would have to be more than 17mm in diameter before the skin effect starts to produce a "hole" in the middle of the wire. #0000 wire is 11.684mm, for reference. In essence, for every commercially available copper conductor being used for AC transmission, the Skin Effect is zero.

Twist Rate - Twist rates are specified in multi-pair cables for a number of reasons. The short version is that if multiple pairs of conductors have identical twist rates (or pitch), it follows that two discreet conductors will be adjacent repeatedly. It is then possible for cross-talk between those two conductors, which is not introduced into their balanced pair. In this case, the common mode rejection is negated because noise is not introduced equally into both conductors in a single pair. As a result of this phenomenon, multi-pair cabling often specifies differing twist rates for individual pairs. Any two conductors may end up adjacent one another, but not repeatedly thus reducing the possibility of cross-talk skirting around the common mode noise rejection of differential amplification. Commonly practiced methods of AC filtering already address this issue.

Another issue with twist rate is the possibility of interaction between the twist rate and the frequency of the signal being transmitted. At high frequencies, it is not impossible for a twist rate to exist in such a fashion that it can interact with an integral multiple or fraction of a 1/4 wavelength of the frequency in question. The result can be variations in impedances, odd reflections, and resonances along the cable. Altering or varying the twist rate can reduce this effect. In AC transmission of 60Hz, the wavelength in question is around 5000km (499654.3m in a vacuum). The effect of a minor change in pitch over a length describable in tens or hundreds of feet is negligible.

Dielectric absorption - In capacitors, this is the tendency of a dielectric material to not completely discharge when briefly discharged after being charged for extended periods. Basically, the dielectric material absorbs and retains some energy. Depending on the material, the amount absorbed can be 1% -15%. In the case of capacitors, this can result in odd behavior in circuitry or in extreme cases electric shock when handling individual components.

In the case of AC transmission, the air space between the conductors and the permittivity of said airspace are key factors in the capacitance of the lines along with the specific material used for insulation. Given that a power cable is typically constructed of several individual conductors which are insulated and an outer jacket, atmospheric conditions are at the very least constant. The thickness of the insulation and its composition then become the variables that are in play when considering the cable's capacitance. Thicker insulation equates to less capacitance, as capacitance is proportional to the surface area of the two conductors, and inversely with the distance separating them. As insulation thickness increases, the effective surface are decreases as the distance between conductors increases.

Dielectric absorption is proportional to capacitance. The smaller the capacitance, the less residual charge there will be left in the capacitive load.

Incidentally, increasing the twist rate of the cable will increase the amount of surface area proximity, and decrease the space between conductors... thereby increasing capacitance as illustrated above.

Those are the major selling points of the AC cables listed on the website in question. Each of these effects is real, but for situations far outside of the application in question, which is transmission of power over short distances. I also take issue with the "30 Day Money Back" period. When taken in conjunction with the break-in period of 50-100 or 150-300 hours (depending on the product in question), it is entirely feasible for the break-in period to extend past the 30-day return window. If one attempts to break these cables in using the prescribed method (music only, preferably with strong transients) and they spend 4 hours a day, 7 days a week doing so, the break-in period takes 37.5 days.

If you want to clean up your power, start first with methods recommended many times over by several of this community's more prominent members: proper grounding, proper cable routing, and proper power load distribution.

Since that last point speaks directly to the question asked by the OP, I'd say 2 separate power strips can't hurt, especially if you separate computer-controlled devices (AVRs, DVD/Blu-Ray, PCs, media players, signal processors, etc) from largely electrical devices (power amps). No sense in having a power amp trip a breaker and take down the rest of the system if it can be avoided for a little extra effort.
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post #32 of 33 Old 03-07-16, 06:23 PM
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Re: Do you recommend 2 surge power strips?

witchdoctor wrote: View Post
I think you made your mind up before you even tested the component. You have no way of equating the value without an audition in your own system, period. You have no idea how your own mods would sound let alone a component you have never auditioned. You are hanging on to your money like it is a victory but IMO listening to high quality components with low quality power is a loss. Not even taking a risk free audition makes it an absolute loss because you have no other way to equate the value. No like no pay= no harm done right?. No try=no clue, get it?

If you think $240 is obscene you obviously haven't listened to many similar components costing 10 x more like this one

As for your engineering expertise do you even know who the owner of Mapleshade is so you can talk and compare notes before you decide what his tech is about? Try googling Pierre Sprey and call him at his recording studio about how he makes his products before you start posting misinformation here please.
Yes, I did. I made up my mind based on the literature available on the website and my own estimation of the veracity of those claims based on researching the claims themselves. I've decided that the asking price is far past the worth of the parts and labor required to assemble them. Have I listened to components costing 10x that price? Nope. I also do not consider the exotic price to be reasonable, regardless of the materials an construction techniques involved. My approach to this hobby is really very simple: buy the cheapest gear worth owning. To that end, I build my own stuff as often as possible, and research to death anything I purchase. Turns out, I'm very happy with my system the way it is, and the upgrades I have planned follow the same philosophy. I expect them to yield similarly satisfactory results for money I'm happy to spend... money I'll have because I didn't drop it on a piece of equipment I feel has no value for my system.

As a sidenote: Witchdoctor linked the Furman M8x power conditioner... I've lost count of how many of those I own. Every time I move gear around and reconfigure things, another spare seems to turn up. They're solid, reliable, and cheap. Highly worth the investment.
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post #33 of 33 Old 03-07-16, 11:18 PM
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Re: Do you recommend 2 surge power strips?

DqMcClain. Well done as usual.

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power , recommend , strips , surge

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