Do "High End" Power Cables Make a Difference ?

[MakeFlat]

Iggster1986 wrote:

That makes sense, but what if you got a good surge protector/line cleaner and after that you got "high end" cable? I would think then it would help.

Perhaps during an abnormal surge of power you could find a difference. In normal use, the DC power supply in every amp has plenty of filtering to filter out noise. Are you saying that the "high-end" power cable acts like a surge protector/line cleaner? If you have a surge suppressor/line cleaner, followed by any power cable, then you would be evaluating the surge suppressor/line cleaner + the power cable, confusing the issue.

[lcaillo]

alan monro wrote:

Mark Don't wast your money on special cables, these cables are being sold by lying greedy salesmen who most know that speaker and mains cables make absolutely no difference to the sound . The government should send them to jail for 'deception' I dont know if in USA there is such a criminal charge??? Alan

There is much vehemence and recriminations regarding the matter of cables of all types. The fact is that most who comment on the matter have an opinion and make lots of assumptions but have never actually done any objective testing nor made a significant attempt at any science regarding the matter. I suggest that we keep the tone of the discussion civil by discussing facts when available, our experience when it may prove helpful, and theory and hypothesis without emotion.

There is nothing criminal about selling overpriced products to people who believe that they actually hear a difference. Some of the claims made in advertising are certainly outrageous, but there is no need to make all salespeople and businesses who sell higher end cables out to be criminals. Most of them simply don't understand the technology any better than their clients.

I have done some objective testing of power conditioners, speaker cables, and interconnects, and have seen enough to know that the issue is more complex than the naysayers would like it to be, and that most of the noted effects are far more due to expectation bias and placebo effects than the proponents would admit.

Speaker wires and interconnects can make an audible difference in some systems under some conditions, but they are very minor compared to what people are expecting to hear or want to hear. Their experiences are "real" because their perception includes the biases that they are conditioned to have. They may not relate to what can be attributed to physical differences in the sound. On the other hand, to say that cabling cannot make a measurable difference based on assumptions that one understands all the variables involved is simply unscientific, and IME, wrong.

Power cables are hard to make a case for, as long as the connections are solid and the size is appropriate for the current used. Noise may be a factor in some cases and shielding may be useful in some cases, but these are rare. Power conditioners do often make a measurable reduction in noise, but it is rare that this noise makes it past a typical power supply. Common mode or ground noise may have an effect in some systems, however, and some noise does pass through a conventional power supply in some systems. Inter-component noise can be an issue that filtering can affect. For most people, the effects of expensive devices and cables are not meaningful in any objective sense.

That said, and all based on my experience and measurements, BTW, many people do experience differences that THEY feel are meaningful. Some may not like the fact that they report them, but here at HTS we WILL discuss the matter in a civil and respectful way, or moderators will take action. That is the way we do things here...everyone gets to state their views, experience, and knowledge, but we keep it civil, without demeaning anyone. Be helpful, respect others, and keep the tenor of the discussion moderate. Stick to facts as much as possible and understand that your opinion is just that until you support your assumptions with facts and/or measurements.

[alan monro]

Leonard . Ron Carlton replied with details that i agree with 100% . I did not want to repeat it in my reply . Talking freely , and generally , Not everybody has my experience ie,fifty years of designing my own Valve (tube) and solid state amplifiers . Also, designing and building , testing my own crossovers and speaker systems , including all the relevant test gear including high power speaker dummy loads . So , I should have an idea of what i am talking about . By the way Monster cable and all the other thick cables have a high capacitance , amplifiers do not like that , and most become unstable . it can be seen easily on a oscilloscope . about the best spkr cable one can have is low capacitance coax cable.And it is not expensive . You mentioned ignorant salesmen selling cable . It is frightening to see 'ignorance in action' .Kind regards Leonard . Alan .

[terry j]

lcaillo wrote:

There is nothing criminal about selling overpriced products to people who believe that they actually hear a difference. Some of the claims made in advertising are certainly outrageous, .

But does the fact that people are willing to part with big bucks make it OK to use deceptive practices or statements??

IF it is true, then surely it is up to those 'who know better' to blow the whistle?

I understand why you made the post you did, (not that I thought Alans post was particularly nasty or inflammatory) but I raise the question of exactly where the boundary lies of what is acceptable commercial practice and what isn't.

As you say, a lot of the 'blurb' is hogwash, often couched in terms of 'quantum' (that one makes me laugh), but surely most of the people who write that rubbish KNOW it's rubbish? If so, then to my way of thinking it does make it deceitful and definitely bordering on fraudulent.

I mean it's ok to sell your product by pointing out it's pretty colour, or the sexy looking termination, but to claim it helps your stereo because it works to radio frequencies (just an example) surely is a con?

What responsibility do any of us have when we see false claims I wonder, personally saying nothing because 'it's ok for people to spend their money on what they want' makes me a little uneasy.

[lcaillo]

The point, guys, is not to justify deceptive practices and false claims. In general, I agree with most of what has been said here. The point is that when we use phrases like "these cables are being sold by lying greedy salesmen who most know that speaker and mains cables make absolutely no difference to the sound," we are departing from the kind of posting that represent what HTS is all about and what separates us from other forums. I have several problems with statements like this.

First, it is factually incorrect to say that most salesmen know that they are selling products that don't make a difference. I have been in this business for nearly 3 decades and can assure you that the vast majority are simply repeating what they have been told and accept it as true or have "experienced" the differences just like their customers. There are certainly some who knowingly deceive, and many who would sell anything just for the sake of making a buck, but the vast majority likely do believe that what they are telling are truths or just don't know any better.

Second, to say that "speaker and mains cables make absolutely no difference to the sound," is factually incorrect and indicates a similar religious belief and bias that is just as bad as someone believing they hear a difference when there really is none. Actually it may be worse, because one is stating something as fact and one is relating personal experience, and both are likely wrong. Speaker cables CAN make a difference, albeit usually insignificant and it may not be "better". Alan says this himself in response above. Mains cables are, as I have said many times, hard to justify, but in either case, the word "absolutely" is completely unjustified and factually wrong. It indicates a lack of willingness to consider the whole picture and remain objective. A scientific and objective inquiry or discussion would ask why might they make a difference and look for the grains of truth that might be behind such outrageous claims.

Finally, this debate has become highly polarized and has become an attractor on many internet forums for individuals whose purpose is to demean, insult, and just plain argue. This is simply not what HTS is about and is not in the spirit of the kind of debate and discussion we choose to have here. Stick to facts, relate your experience, accept that others may have a different perspective that is just as valid as your own, and do not make sweeping statements that make invalid assumptions unjustifiably. Do not let debate deteriorate into vitriolic attacks on those with a different point of view or those who are ignorant of the facts. HTS is not AVS. Keep it that way and be mindful of the spirit of helpfulness and open debate that we have here.

[terry j]

lcaillo wrote:

we are departing from the kind of posting that represent what HTS is all about and what separates us from other forums.

Gotta agree with you about the shack, it's a very nice place. I don't recall ever seeing anything nasty here.

First, it is factually incorrect to say that most salesmen know that they are selling products that don't make a difference. I have been in this business for nearly 3 decades and can assure you that the vast majority are simply repeating what they have been told and accept it as true or have "experienced" the differences just like their customers.

On reflection, that is very true. I suppose that most of them would read the industry mags, and take it 'as given' of the (vast) sonic differences between cables etc.

Second, to say that "speaker and mains cables make absolutely no difference to the sound," is factually incorrect and indicates a similar religious belief and bias that is just as bad as someone believing they hear a difference when there really is none. A scientific and objective inquiry or discussion would ask why might they make a difference and look for the grains of truth that might be behind such outrageous claims.

It is indeed a fact that speaker cables can make a difference, unfortunately any difference is usually to the negative, all related of course to easily measured parameters like L,R and C

I can only speak for myself, the biggest problem I have with discussions in this area are the usually over the top and outlandish claims made for any sonic differences, as you say, if they exist they are usually minor. The real problem (in my opinion) is that often people 'chase' cables to correct something that they are unhappy with in their system. That I'm sure is a sure fire recipe for failure. the trouble is the outlandish claims made in the industry bolster that false impression.

It is factors like resistance etc that give a scientific and plausible explanation for differences in speaker cables, I too scratch my head trying to imagine a rational reason for power cords to make a difference.

If what you said about salesmen wasn't true, it would be very hard for them to sleep at night. It must be worse being in the business and NOT believing that they make a worthwhile difference....what would you do if someone came in to buy cables, say no? That would certainly not be in the best interest of the business.

I wonder what are some other bits of 'received wisdom' held by salesmen in the industry?? hmmm

In any case, I applaud you having the best interests of the shack in mind, and back you to the hilt on it.

[gsmollin]

While I don't think power cables have much effect on sonic quality, I have softened my stance on the speaker cables. In particular, the "bi-wiring" of cables can have a demonstrable improvement on the distortion of a loudspeaker.

I haven't seen this explained properly in the press, but here is why its true: The speaker cable inserts an impedance in the signal path. This impedance allows harmonic distortion products in the woofer's current (primarily thirds) to modulate the voltage waveform applied to the tweeter. With short cables and a good amplifier, this effect is minimal because the distortion is attenuated by the amplifier's low output impedance. But with long cables, the cable impedance can allow the distortion from the woofer's current to be heard in the tweeter. With bi-wiring, the signal paths are separate back to the amplifier, so the low output impedance of the amp will control this. I think of it as poor-man's bi-amping.

[lcaillo]

Interesting ideas. Have they been measured or is this just speculation? Why don't you start a thread where we can discuss this specifically and see what others might know. I have always been very skeptical about bi-wiring. I wonder how much effect the very small difference in impedance would make.

[brucek]

Have they been measured or is this just speculation?

I have to agree with gsmollin on this explanation, although I won't comment on its audibility.

The statement of harmonic distortion products in the woofer's current (primarily thirds) to modulate the voltage waveform applied to the tweeter might be questioned by some sharp cookie who would contend that superposition theorem would state otherwise, but that would only hold true for a linear system. Bi-wiring will only theoretically be a benefit when drivers distort and linearity is no longer maintained.

With sufficient voltage a driver can deviate from ideal linearity so the current in that connection between the low output impedance of the amplifier and woofer (in this case), will carry harmonic distortion components which can create intermodulation products. In a simple non-bi-wire situation, the tweeter driver terminals will see these distortion components through the speakers low impedance straps (when a single non bi-wire set of cables is used).

The theoretical advantage is now valid if you assume a set of bi-wire speaker cables has some finite impedance (obviously, the longer the cables, the more pronounced the effects will be). When bi-wire cables are used rather than single wires with straps, the distortion components (caused by the woofer driver) will have a lower impedance path to the amplifiers low output impedance rather than travel back and down the tweeters speaker cable. Yeah, you're right, it's a small advantage and you could argue that the tweeters crossover would help to reduce the problem, but I suppose you could argue that the harmonic and intermodulation products will be at a higher frequency and may pass through to the tweeter driver.

The entire advantage is gained by asking this question. From the perspective of the woofer driver terminals, which is the lower impedance route to the tweeters driver terminals? Is it a set of straps in a non bi-wire situation, or is it the route of a set of bi-wire cables that has a theoretical ideal voltage source in the path..........

brucek

[Sonnie]

Leonard has a good idea... we need to start a new thread... something like: Does bi-wiring and/or bi-amping speakers make a difference?

[dtb300]

JCD wrote:

One thing to keep in mind if you do something like this is that you should not underestimate the power of suggestion. Even when you try to keep it in mind, the seed has already been planted.

Then have your stock and your other cord available. Have a friend make a change without you knowing which one several times and see if you accurately define each one. If not then keep the stock and move on. No need to justify, no need to explain, just sit back and listen to music as you like it.

I have tried many cords, cables, etc. I have found the cables I like best in my setup for my liking, in my budget. For Power cords, I have tried Stock, Volex, Signal Cable, and others costing up to 10 times more, before I made my final choice.

Just remember, if you hear a difference, or think you hear a difference, and the item is within your budget, it really does not matter what others think about it. This hobby is all about what you like in the way of sound within your budget, let the budget be $100's or $100,000's.

[gsmollin]

brucek wrote:

I have to agree with gsmollin on this explanation, although I won't comment on its audibility.

The statement of harmonic distortion products in the woofer's current (primarily thirds) to modulate the voltage waveform applied to the tweeter might be questioned by some sharp cookie who would contend that superposition theorem would state otherwise, but that would only hold true for a linear system. Bi-wiring will only theoretically be a benefit when drivers distort and linearity is no longer maintained.

With sufficient voltage a driver can deviate from ideal linearity so the current in that connection between the low output impedance of the amplifier and woofer (in this case), will carry harmonic distortion components which can create intermodulation products. In a simple non-bi-wire situation, the tweeter driver terminals will see these distortion components through the speakers low impedance straps (when a single non bi-wire set of cables is used).

The theoretical advantage is now valid if you assume a set of bi-wire speaker cables has some finite impedance (obviously, the longer the cables, the more pronounced the effects will be). When bi-wire cables are used rather than single wires with straps, the distortion components (caused by the woofer driver) will have a lower impedance path to the amplifiers low output impedance rather than travel back and down the tweeters speaker cable. Yeah, you're right, it's a small advantage and you could argue that the tweeters crossover would help to reduce the problem, but I suppose you could argue that the harmonic and intermodulation products will be at a higher frequency and may pass through to the tweeter driver.

The entire advantage is gained by asking this question. From the perspective of the woofer driver terminals, which is the lower impedance route to the tweeters driver terminals? Is it a set of straps in a non bi-wire situation, or is it the route of a set of bi-wire cables that has a theoretical ideal voltage source in the path..........

brucek

Supersposition only holds for a linear system, and of course I am talking about non-linearities. It is precisely the distortion products of the woofer that can be re-produced in the tweeter that I am talking about. I have been toying with the idea of measuring some of this at work. I have the equipment, but I've been pretty busy lately and the last time I had a piece of home equipment connected to the spectrum analyzer I think half the people in the lab had to come over to see what i was doing. All I would have to do is add low frequency tones from a loudspeaker to attract everybody.