Fool Audyssey?

[Bill 3]

I have just finished up a sub build and have more deep bass than ever before. Problem is when I re-ran the Audyssey program on my Denon 3808 it kills my deep bass.

Do you guys have any suggestions on the best way to fool Audyssey so it won't mess with my deep stuff?

Here is what I am talking about. All measurements taken from the same position.

Graph of my original sub response with no EQing.
graph_no_eqing.jpg

So I added some filters thinking I would get better results from Audyssey.
graph_bfdon_b4audy.jpg

And this is the Audyssey result.
graph_bfd_afteraudycal.jpg


I would have guessed that Audyssey would not have touched anything below 20Hz, but how wrong I was.

[mojogoes]

I could well be off here but wouldn't an increase in volume at the receiver or sub sort this out....just like you would do after setting filters with the bfd.

[Bill 3]

Well, I decided that I would try and let Audyssey have a go at it without any filters applied. I did turn down the sub amp some to try and keep the my peaks around my target line.

graph_amp down no eq.jpg

Here is what Audyssey did (I did about 4 locations close to where my REW mic is)

graph audy amp down.jpg

So now I crank up the amp and the sub output level on the reciever and add filters and here is the result. I am sure I could play around with the BFD more and make it better, but I also worry about other locations in the room. It is fun playing with this stuff, but after a while. I desperately need more time and a lot more patience and

graph audy bfd amp level up.jpg

I can get what I want by not using Audyssey but I believe in it for EQing the rest of my speakers. To me there should be a better way. Any other ideas????

[Bill 3]

mojogoes wrote:

I could well be off here but wouldn't an increase in volume at the receiver or sub sort this out....just like you would do after setting filters with the bfd.

Ya, I guess that is what I did in the previous post here. It just seems like there should be a better way. I had the sub amp turned down what appears to be about 6dB before running Audyssey. Then even with turning the amp up, I have to turn the sub out on the reciever up from -6 to +3 or 9dB. Just seems like a lot of cutting and adding. I would be more comfortable with minor adjustments.

I may also ding the Denon or Audyssey people about this. It has been a complaint by several that this newer generation of Denon reciever is lacking bass. I thought this may have been taken care of my my latest firmware download, but to me it needs to be addressed more.

Thanks for the reply.

Bill

[mojogoes]

Yeah i suppose its how much your peaks have had to be flatterned in relation to on how much spl you loose.......i think this is possibly where a house curve comes into its own/the factoring i guess .

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

I think I'd just turn off the sub and let Audyssey take care of the mains, then do the sub seperately with REW and the BFD. Will Audyssey let you do that?

Regards,
Wayne

[3ll3d00d]

in order to apply a house curve and use audyssey I do the following;

- turn off audyssey
- sweep and EQ to a flat target
- run the audyssey process
- reset my filters, sweep and EQ to a house curve target

In my room and with my setup I find that any other approach leads Audyssey to attempt to tackle the house curve as it wants to go flat. The waterfall shows up what it is doing quite clearly.

It's quite time consuming running both audyssey and a BFD but it's worth it as audyssey does a great job on the mains as well as around the crossover.

Cheers
Matt

[Bill 3]

Wayne A. Pflughaupt wrote:

I think I'd just turn off the sub and let Audyssey take care of the mains, then do the sub seperately with REW and the BFD. Will Audyssey let you do that?

Regards,
Wayne

I am pretty sure that Audyssey needs to see a sub of some sort in order to work properly. I actually wish I had never re-run Audyssey after taking out my orig Klipsch sub and adding my new ones. I may have to keep it around just for running Audyssey.

Thanks,
Bill

[Bill 3]

3ll3d00d wrote:

in order to apply a house curve and use audyssey I do the following;

- turn off audyssey
- sweep and EQ to a flat target
- run the audyssey process
- reset my filters, sweep and EQ to a house curve target

In my room and with my setup I find that any other approach leads Audyssey to attempt to tackle the house curve as it wants to go flat. The waterfall shows up what it is doing quite clearly.

It's quite time consuming running both audyssey and a BFD but it's worth it as audyssey does a great job on the mains as well as around the crossover.

Cheers
Matt

That is more or less what I originally attempted. I think the problem lies in my peak between 10-15Hz that I cannot flatten with the BFD. Who would have guessed that Audyssey would even recognize anything that low? Too bad it doesn't try an equalize it instead of just cutting the entire sub output.

I have a few ideas on my testing. One will be to not only turn down my sub amp -even more- for both subs. I think I will also try only using one sub when running Audyssey. I could also re-tune my sub enclosure to try and minimize that peak at tuning (12.8Hz).

Thanks,
Bill

[thxgoon]

What are the effects of having 2 eq's working simultaneously on a single output? IOW - the Audessey is subtracting at 20hz while the BFD is then adding to 20hz. Doesn't this increase delays and decrease transient response?

[Bill 3]

thxgoon wrote:

What are the effects of having 2 eq's working simultaneously on a single output? IOW - the Audessey is subtracting at 20hz while the BFD is then adding to 20hz. Doesn't this increase delays and decrease transient response?

I would go along with you on the negative effects of 2 EQ's in a row. In an effort to minimize the effects, I think it is better to have the BFD running in the system even if the filters are minimal when running Audyssey. My thought is that Audyssey will adjust the phase/distance to account for the BFD. My mains, center and Subs are all along the front wall. After running Audyssey, it finds the correct distances for the mains and center (~15') but finds my sub to be ~4.5'. I assumed this was due to delays/transient response. The other thing is that I have not used the BFD to boost any frequency, only cuts. I used the sub amp and the sub out on the receiver to boost the output then cut the peak frequencies with the BFD.

Thanks for your input.

Bill

[Bill 3]

So last night I did some experimenting. I moved my REW mic all around the room to possibly find better spots for Audyssey to measure. As I have learned here, only a few feet can make quite a difference. I haven't had a chance to digest all the info yet , but I think i have some ideas.

I don't really have a lot of choice on seating or speaker location, but I can possibly choose better spots for Audyssey to measure that are close enough to my primary location to achieve the results I want. Who knows maybe if I mess with it long enough, maybe I can eliminate the BFD all together. Not holding my breath though.

JohnM Thank You, Thank You, Thank You - for such an awesome tool!

[Hakka]

Is there any way to load a .cal file for the audyssey mic? If so you could manipulate the cal file to make audyssey aim for a house curve.

The only other way around it is to run a cable from the subwoofer analog output on the player directly to the sub, bypassing the receiver, but this gives you volume matching issues between the receiver and sub.

I think the method of using the BFD to flatten the sub, then run audyssey, then run BFD house curve sounds like the best option.

Hakka.

[fibreKid]

Hello;
I have an older Denon 3805 which has the older eq stuff not the new Audyssey.
What mains do you have, can you tell the avr that there is no Sub and set the speakers to large?
What happens if you run a sweep that way and then add the sub back to the equation? Does this mess the avr up?

-john

[Bill 3]

Hakka wrote:

Is there any way to load a .cal file for the audyssey mic? If so you could manipulate the cal file to make audyssey aim for a house curve.

Wouldn't that be great? I believe I read in the Audyssey thread on the AVS forum that the mic and calibration is part of their "secret formula", and they or Denon would not make it available.

Hakka wrote:

I think the method of using the BFD to flatten the sub, then run audyssey, then run BFD house curve sounds like the best option.

Hakka.

Well, I tried fooling Audyssey (without the BFD) by always placing the mic back at the first position for each reading. I would sneak in and move it just before the sub measure. I then took a few measurements and applied filters, changed levels to give a good house curve. Result.....got busy and haven't had time to acually sit and listen.

I think you are right though. Probably should have flattened the sub before measurements.

[Bill 3]

fibreKid wrote:

Hello;
I have an older Denon 3805 which has the older eq stuff not the new Audyssey.
What mains do you have, can you tell the avr that there is no Sub and set the speakers to large?
What happens if you run a sweep that way and then add the sub back to the equation? Does this mess the avr up?

-john

You know, I have always been in the mind that Audyssey wouldn't work right or equilize correctly if the sub was not in the mix to begin with, but maybe that is not the case . I too have a 3805 and have yet to look at what it does with the sub - if anything. For mains I have Klipsh RF-3 (specs say they go down to 37Hz) which means the AVR should EQ below my crossove point and then I would be EQing the sub with the BFD. Maybe you are on to something.

Have you tried the method of adding the sub after the "setup"?

Bill

[shokhead]

After Audyssey sets everything up just turn the vol on the back of the sub a tad until it's what you want. Everybody's taste for bass/LFE is different.

[fibreKid]

Hello;

I have not tried to fool my EQ setup, I didn't seem to have too much trouble with it. My problem is sub placement. I have a huge hull around 50hz. That has kept me focused on different stuff.
The only reason I brought it up is that I'm in the software bussiness and sometimes people will write very robust code for situations that aren't in the spc so to speak. In the last two years I have been working with HW very closely and for various reasons (code size, complexity) the hw guys code for spec and spec only. I was figuring that the code that does all this stuff might be designed for the specific setup and might not clear itself if the speaker config changed after the eq was done.

Good luck
-john

[3ll3d00d]

Bill 3 wrote:

You know, I have always been in the mind that Audyssey wouldn't work right or equilize correctly if the sub was not in the mix to begin with, but maybe that is not the case . I too have a 3805 and have yet to look at what it does with the sub - if anything. For mains I have Klipsh RF-3 (specs say they go down to 37Hz) which means the AVR should EQ below my crossove point and then I would be EQing the sub with the BFD. Maybe you are on to something.

Have you tried the method of adding the sub after the "setup"?

Bill

from what I've read Audyssey will seek to apply EQ down to the -3dB point of each speaker irrespective of small/large settings etc. If you don't have the sub in the mix then you may negatively impact the crossover region as it won't be measuring the way they interact thereby calculating "bad" filters but I guess the only way to know if to do repeated tests.

[Jerm357]

Not sure what kind of sub you have, but you could try running Audyssey with your ports blocked. After running Audyssey open the ports back up and you should have a higher low end.

[Bill 3]

That is an excellent idea. I was just trying to figure out how to impliment a highpass filter around 20Hz or re-tune my eclosure for running audyssey as a test to see if it would give me better bass results. From my results it appears that audyssey tries to correct well below 20Hz and if I could knock the peak down that I have between 10-15Hz I may get the results I am after. I don't mind the peak in that area because I think it is more felt than heard anyway.

My subs are 2 - Fi Q18 in 700l enclosures tuned to 12.8Hz

Thanks for the suggestion, I will give it a try. Any suggestions on the best way to plug an 8.5" dia port?

[Jerm357]

Try a beach/bath towl folded long ways then roll it up. If one is not enuff roll another one around that.

[Bill 3]

I thought I might need something that would seal better than a towel. But with nothing to loose I tried it. Check out this graph.

Obviously blue line is with the towels in the ports.
graph_port_block.jpg

The house wasn't quiet and I have yet to re-run Audyssey, but this looks promising. Thanks again Jerm for the suggestion.

[Jerm357]

Have you got around to tring Audyssey yet? Im interested it seeing what happends because I might be doing this with my sub.

[Bill 3]

Yes I did try it and with good results. I just haven't had the time to get things orginized to post things here. I also recently changed furniture and re-did audyssey and that opened up another can of worms. I used the plugs and the previous filters and then ran Audyssey, pulled the plugs and reapplied the filters I used before changing furniture, then raised the trim on the sub level on the reciever about the same amount. Had to leave it at that with company coming over and it turned out to be terrible, almost no deep bass. Anyway, my plan is to plug subs and EQ them flat, run audyssey, then unplug and EQ again to a good house curve.

I will try and get some graphs and such posted soon.

Bill