Newbie 1st Post: How am I doing? Thanks

[zilbenz]

Thanks to all the dedicated experts here I've gotten to know FBQ2496, REW, SoundBlaster External, etc. After many hours stuck at the ... sound card calibration, I was finally able to get a few measurements at 3 AM last night simply because I was trying to follow sound card calibration of the Sound Blaster instructions on my Vista laptop.

I'm hoping for some comments as to what/how I'm doing. It has been a steep learning curve for me but very rewarding. SoundBlaster External in Vista was nothing ... like the Help File (as your Help File stated) and so I found a way to resurrect my forgotten half broker XP Dell laptop with the help of an external display for this purpose.

I took 9 measurements, chose the best looking one in my mind, set target level, found peaks, applied filters, optimized filters, reset target level, reoptimized filters, save filters and sent to FBQ2496.

My equipment:
Krell HTS 7.1 w/ Cross-over at 80
XLR connectors
Mackie HR824 (powered studio monitors)
AV123 MFW15 Subwoofer (new)
Radio Shack Meter

Most likely I will revisit these REW routines many more times now that I've been intrigued by the vast knowledge found in here at the HTShack. Thanks to all of you, epecially the frequent contributors for your generous advice.

Please let me know what you think. Thank you in advance.

Chris

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

Hi Chris,

Congrats on your REW success!

Your graph looks pretty good, but it would be easier to tell if you had set your graph limits to our usual standard 45-105 dB window, from 10 or 15 Hz up to 200 Hz. Hopefully you saved your measurements. Look for the "Graph Limits" icon at the upper right hand side of the REW screen.

Regards,
Wayne

[zilbenz]

Hello Wayne

Thanks for the warm welcome and kind comments. It's kind of special seeing your comments responding to my first newbie post versus reading your 1000's of comments elsewhere on the board.

Please find another and hopefully better picture of my previous measurements. Please let me hear your thoughts on my progress. Thanks.

Chris

[brucek]

let me hear your thoughts

Please use a vertical scale of 45dB-105dB.

Also note there is a filter sort button on the filter popup that orders them from low to high (for convenience).

Looks fine though. Hopefully when you add the mains, the dip at 100hz will clear up....

brucek

[zilbenz]

brucek

Thank you for the comments and advice. Your instructions through the various posts helped to give me the guts to dig into REW and FBQ to get to this point.

I will post the appropriate pictures later on today. By the way, I was listening to my (improved) set up late last night using the filters that REW suggested for both mains and sub. My wife walked by, sat down, and we ended up watching parts of familiars music DVDs (Sade, Roger Waters, Eagles, etc.) and were super delighted by what we heard. And I know this is just ... the beginning. Her comments that something was missing from the sound prompted this over-my-head REW endevour.

Please confirm that the following steps are in the ball park in intergrating the mains and the sub:

1. After sending filters to FBQ2496, in AV setup, set main speakers to Small or Limited; crosss over at 80; use internal noise generator to calibrate mains and sub to 75;

2. Repeat sweep measurement with the mains and sub on;

3. Find peaks for range between 0 and 80?? or between 0 and 200 as usual; re find targer, reassign filters, reoptimized, etc.

4. Assign filters for that range and "ignore" filters with very small correction values? Refind target

5. Enjoy?

Thank you again. I truly appreciate your help.

Chris

[salvasol]

zilbenz wrote:

... My wife walked by, sat down, and we ended up watching parts of familiars music DVDs (Sade, Roger Waters, Eagles, etc.) and were super delighted by what we heard. And I know this is just ... the beginning. Her comments that something was missing from the sound prompted this over-my-head REW endevour.

Welcome to the club

...Please confirm that the following steps are in the ball park in intergrating the mains and the sub: ...

That's correct.... specially # 5

Do you have the autocalibration feature in your AVR??? ... if you do, I'm sure you already use it to calibrate the system, Right???

I suggest you to play with the crossover setting and speaker size ... 80Hz is okay, but I've read that some use this @ 60Hz or 70Hz because is how they got the best response. When I did my autocalibration, the AVR set up the crossover at 65Hz

You can calibrate all speakers to 75db ... most of us use the sub 3db - 5db higher (78db - 80db instead of 75db).

Speaker size doesn't have to be always small (specially if you have speakers that can handle lower frequencies) ... I have JBL Stadium (35Hz - 20KHz), I played with them and REW, and the best frequency response was using them as large ... that's the way I'm using them

Don't be affraid to play with the system ... specially now that you have REW, try to get the best out of your system

[brucek]

Please confirm that the following steps are in the ball park in intergrating the mains and the sub:

I guess everyone might have a different take on this.

For myself, I like to get the sub equalized by itself, and then as you say, use the internal test tones to re-establish a balanced level between the mains and the sub. Usually this involves only adjusting the sub amp itself, since I don't want to disturb the input level previously setup into the BFD. Before the entire process ever began of course, I used the internal test tones to balance all the speaker levels. So, the only level that should be in question is the sub that has now been equalized of its peaks.

Then, I would do an REW measure with the sub + mains and examine the crossover area. No way I would mess around with Find Peaks etc at this point. The phase control or distance time trim or a small manual filter should be enough to smooth the crossover area.

brucek

[zilbenz]

brucek wrote:

For myself, I like to get the sub equalized by itself, and then as you say, use the internal test tones to re-establish a balanced level between the mains and the sub. Usually this involves only adjusting the sub amp itself, since I don't want to disturb the input level previously setup into the BFD. Before the entire process ever began of course, I used the internal test tones to balance all the speaker levels. So, the only level that should be in question is the sub that has now been equalized of its peaks.

Then, I would do an REW measure with the sub + mains and examine the crossover area. No way I would mess around with Find Peaks etc at this point. The phase control or distance time trim or a small manual filter should be enough to smooth the crossover area.

brucek

Thank you, brucek. I guess I will have to:

(1) bypass the FBQ,

(2) use internal noice generator to balance mains and sub to 75 (just like the pre-FBQ status),

(3) reload the first filters obtained from REW to FBQ, run sub through FBQ,

(4) again, use internal noise generator to balance mains and FBQ-sub to 75, using only sub's volume control and NOT Krell HTS's internal sub out level control,

(5) remeasure with REW with mains and sub on,

(6) load new filters suggested by REW to FBQ,

(7) try to smooth out the cross over area (80) using "phase control or distance time trim or a small manual filter." I am clueless right here.

Could you please elaborate no. 7 so that I will know what to look for? Only the phase control applies in my case: do I adjust the phase control and use ears to listen for improvement or use REW to confirm smoothness in cross over area? Any tips? Thanks very much.

Chris

[zilbenz]

salvasol wrote:

Welcome to the club

Thank you so much. What a pleasant group of gentlemen around here! Really enjoy it.

Do you have the autocalibration feature in your AVR??? ... if you do, I'm sure you already use it to calibrate the system, Right???

My Krell HTS does not seem to have this auto-cal feature.

I suggest you to play with the crossover setting and speaker size ... 80Hz is okay, but I've read that some use this @ 60Hz or 70Hz because is how they got the best response. When I did my autocalibration, the AVR set up the crossover at 65Hz

My Krell HTS does not seem to have x-over point lower than 80. I will check on this.

You can calibrate all speakers to 75db ... most of us use the sub 3db - 5db higher (78db - 80db instead of 75db).

I will definitely try your suggestion here because I found myself upping the temporary Sub level control on my remote at times.

Speaker size doesn't have to be always small (specially if you have speakers that can handle lower frequencies) ... I have JBL Stadium (35Hz - 20KHz), I played with them and REW, and the best frequency response was using them as large ... that's the way I'm using them

Thank you for that. However, my ears really opened up last night when my Mackie HR824s were set to "limited" in that the highs were crispier, vocal seemed to have more projection, and the lows were of course ... lower. I will try a few settings.

I hope for more suggestions and advice. Thank you again.

Chris

[brucek]

Could you please elaborate

(1) to (3) is not really needed, since you can leave the filters loaded and simply push the BYPASS button at any time to enable or disable the filters.

But the object here is to simply turn on the mains and be sure the level is balanced with the sub (by adjusting the sub amp) after the eq filters are loaded. The reason for adjusting the sub amp at this point (and it should only be a small amount) is because you don't want to mess with the output level trim of the receiver that you've already set up before you started equalizing. Once you equalize, the overall level of the sub may be a bit lower and so you need to check that when you add the mains and tweak it up a bit.

(4)&(5) good

(6) No, you've already equalized the sub and have loaded the filters. You added the mains to check for level and smoothness at the crossover. You seldom require any more filtering. If you do, add it manually from the front panel - not with REW. Generally phase and distance will clear the crossover up.

Could you please elaborate no. 7 so that I will know what to look for?

In a perfect world it would look like the pic below. The mixing of the sub plus mains would produce the resulting signal shown in the red line. Do your best. The phase control can be moved a bit and then remeasure and see how you did. Keep doing it until it looks the best at the crossover. The mixing usually provides a bumpy ride. Try and make it nice. Distance also works as a proxy for phase, especially if you only have a switch. Last resort would be to filter a bit. Do that by hand.




brucek

[salvasol]

zilbenz wrote:

Thank you so much. What a pleasant group of gentlemen around here! Really enjoy it.

Thank you for the compliment ... were one of the friendly if not the most friendly forum on the internet

... My Krell HTS does not seem to have x-over point lower than 80. I will check on this...

I just read the manual ... look page 40, you have this options 120, 100, 80, 60 and 40

At the beginning I didn't really understand about the sub "Normal or Enhanced" ... but at the end I think you have to use Enhanced

Have fun with your project

[zilbenz]

I just read the manual ... look page 40, you have this options 120, 100, 80, 60 and 40

Wow! I realized that Krell allowed lower x-over settings than 80 late .. last night and that you were right!

At the beginning I didn't really understand about the sub "Normal or Enhanced" ... but at the end I think you have to use Enhanced

I will try "enhanced" setting immediately. I'm definitely having fun. Thank you.

By the way, are you also using Krell HTS? I favored this processor for its XLR connections among other things! Please share any tips at all.

Chris

[salvasol]

zilbenz wrote:

... By the way, are you also using Krell HTS? I favored this processor for its XLR connections among other things! Please share any tips at all. Chris

No ... I wish I have $$$$ to get better equipment (I'm using a Yamaha RX-V2700 130WPC), I'm not sure if you already saw this thread http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...rofession.html ... most of us have humble HT's, we get our equipment little by little and upgrade when possible (I started with a Sony rcvr 100WPC and Infinity TSS 750 system); but we try to get the best we can from our equipment

I learned a lot in this great forum, and I try to help anybody if I can (look for information online, give ideas, tell my histories, what I did good or did wrong, etc.

That's why we suggest to ask ... even if you think is a newbie question, it doesn't matter; we're always here to help each other and learn

[zilbenz]

brucek

I ordered the Turtle Beach sound card that you recommended to work with my Vista notebook. Presently, I have to run my Dell XP notebook with an external display in order to use the Sound Blaster sound card that everyone here seems to be using. Don't know how it will turn out but thanks for the advice.