First time user - mixed results

[lovingdvd]

Hello - well I got all the pieces in place and go up and running quite smoothly with REW. What a fantastic product! Hats off to all those that contribute to its development and support. The help files are exceptional and it made for a very smooth setup and configuration.

Its late so I'll spare some detail for now, but I had some mixed results so I'd like to please get some clarifications:

I measured for only the sub. Target was 75dB, xo 80hz. I used the Find Peaks and Optimize very easily and it flattened out a good bit of the major peak issue I was having!

However I am unclear what to do about the dips. For instance I have a dip at 60hz. I was able to clear it up by using +6dB gain 4 wide. The curve now looks nice. However I am concerned about headroom and clipping issues because the manual says not to go over 3dB gain for filling in dips.

I play my system at fairly low levels most of the time, and only occassionally start to crank it up. But even in those cases I never really blast it. Point is that I know the sub can play and handle much larger volumes than I ever push to it. So in that case am I safe using this level of gain?

The other question I had is that I wound up using all 12 filters because I had various small gaps to lower (about -2 to -5dB) and a handful of dips to raise (+3 or so except for that one +6 I already mentioned). This made for a rather choppy line (all +/- about 2-3dB from 75db).

Is there a way I could have it smooth this out? I used the Optimize function but apparently that only smooths out the AUTO filters, whereas these I added were manual. Is there a way I can tell REW 'hey these are filters I want you to consider in your optimization' and have it smooth over my manual ones as well? If not how does once achieve a more smooth curve if they have several small dips and peaks to manually take care of?

OK so after doing just the sub I turned my attention to calibrating with the L/R fronts added in and set to full range Full Range. This is where things went down hill.

In this mode I had a very choppy spikes for dips and peaks from 30-100hz (and up). Lots of zig-zags. I don't know how to begin to smooth that over. It took out some peaks but I'm left with a ton of big dips. When I measured my L/R along without the subs and choose Base Limited I saw that these speakers contribute a lot of bass (as they should - they are rated down to 32hz). I am really surprised to hear just how much bass is coming out of these speakers below the 80hz crossover, and I verified that my Yamaha receiver is set to xo at 80hz.

I'm tempted to just equalize the sub alone knowing that it will be smooth and not worry about how the sub and fronts do together. However I have a feeling that is the wrong approach.

Also as a side note - what is one supposed to do if they have a significant dip. Everything I read says don't crank up the gain too much. But say someone has a -10dB dip? I'm thinking that in this case you can define the target -10dB lower, and then flatten everything else out. Then just crank up the sub to get it balanced with the rest of the system again. But not sure if that is the right approach.

For instance in my case where I had that -6dB dip, is there an easy way to take out 6dB from everything else and then not have to raise the dip? I'm very confused about this.

Thanks again!

[lovingdvd]

BTW - I just wanted to add that I have not yet tried any of the EQ filters in the BFD - just working within the REW software and its estimated results. Perhaps actual results will be close but a bit smoother and these little dips/peaks I referred to in my last post will be smoothed.

At any rate I plan to get these programmed into the BFD tomorrow. Because the MIDI doesn't work I didn't have a chance to program it in yet, as I'll need to research how to do that tomorrow.

[terry j]

"For instance in my case where I had that -6dB dip, is there an easy way to take out 6dB from everything else and then not have to raise the dip? I'm very confused about this."

For sure, boosting the entire response by 6db then cutting everything else back around the dip is a totally valid and workable way to go, and is usually the way I do it. Of course that only applies to the sub, guess it's a bit trickier if it's the mains that are causing it!

You didn't mention how 'sharp' the dips were, the sharper they are the less you need to worry about them.

In any case, more intelligent help is probably on it's way!! ha ha. Just as an afterthought, always test the results of any boost you do, if it doesn't respond to the boost then get rid of it quick as it's likely that no amount of boost will help in that situation.

As always, trust your ears and if it doesn't sound like it is struggling then it is probably OK.

[Ivaols]

lovingdvd wrote:

OK so after doing just the sub I turned my attention to calibrating with the L/R fronts added in and set to full range Full Range. This is where things went down hill.

I'm tempted to just equalize the sub alone knowing that it will be smooth and not worry about how the sub and fronts do together. However I have a feeling that is the wrong approach.

Thanks again!

Hi,

1: try setting the L/R fronts to NOT play anything under 80 HZ. This will give your speakers and your receiver more headroom, and will probably remove a lot of the (gain/phase) problems below 80hz.

2: Your feeling is correct, after all you do listen to front speakers and sub at the same time.

[lovingdvd]

terry j wrote:

For sure, boosting the entire response by 6db then cutting everything else back around the dip is a totally valid and workable way to go, and is usually the way I do it. Of course that only applies to the sub, guess it's a bit trickier if it's the mains that are causing it!

Mainly concerned with just the sub at the moment. How do I go about boosting the entire repsonse by 6dB and then cutting everything else back? Do I simply turn up the sub? Will REW then take care of the filters to flatten everything back to the target? I ask because this will not really be a peak for much of the range - instead it'll be a range that's about 6dB too high.

You didn't mention how 'sharp' the dips were, the sharper they are the less you need to worry about them.

Pretty sharp, like zig-zags.

In any case, more intelligent help is probably on it's way!! ha ha.

Thanks I look forward to hearing from the guys on all this but certainly your input has been very helpful too!

[lovingdvd]

Ivaols wrote:

Hi,

1: try setting the L/R fronts to NOT play anything under 80 HZ. This will give your speakers and your receiver more headroom, and will probably remove a lot of the (gain/phase) problems below 80hz.

Is this a common feature in receivers? I don't think there is any way I can tell my Yamaha RX-V1400 to not play anything below a certain freq like 80hz. I have them set to Small, and have the xo at 80hz, but it would be great to have it cut the lows off sharper if anything.

It does have an EQ that I could probably use to set 60hz very low and maybe 80hz too. But if I engage its graphic EQ then I cannot use its parametric EQ auto-calibration, and I need that for it to balance the high end (unrelated to the sub).

[lovingdvd]

Here's an oddity I was also hitting I'd like some feedback on...

When I did the Check Levels from the Sound card options it said my input level was good like -18dB. However when I press the Check Levels button on the Measurement window before taking a measurement it said it was too low, like -30ish.

So I then used the option to increase the level from -12 to -9. Then the measurement Check Levels button said the level was ok. But then the problem was that my receiver was no longer putting out 75dB, it was putting out something more.

So then I'd lower the receiver volume so I was back to 75dB, but then the Measurement Check Levels button again would say it was too low. So I was caught in this cycle.

Eventually somehow or another I seemed to manage to get this straight while using the -12 setting. Not sure how I did this though and am wondering what to do the next time this happens. Thanks.

[brucek]

Mainly concerned with just the sub at the moment. How do I go about boosting the entire repsonse by 6dB and then cutting everything else back? Do I simply turn up the sub?

Yes, but the sub has to have that headroom. You'd be far better to post your graph so we can see it.

Is this a common feature in receivers? I don't think there is any way I can tell my Yamaha RX-V1400 to not play anything below a certain freq like 80hz. I have them set to Small, and have the xo at 80hz, but it would be great to have it cut the lows off sharper if anything.

Yes, most receivers allow a different crossover than 80Hz. If yours is fixed at 80Hz that is fine.

Is there a way I could have it smooth this out? I used the Optimize function but apparently that only smooths out the AUTO filters, whereas these I added were manual. Is there a way I can tell REW 'hey these are filters I want you to consider in your optimization' and have it smooth over my manual ones as well? If not how does once achieve a more smooth curve if they have several small dips and peaks to manually take care of?

REW does what you ask. The Help file says:

"The filter settings can be manually adjusted to improve the correction, typically adjusting the Q values and using Adjust PK Gains to readjust the gains to suit. The graph traces update as the adjustments are made making the process fast and easy. Adjust PK Gains alters the gains of all Automatic filters to bring the response at their centre frequencies to the target level. Q is not altered."

So simply set a filter to MANual if you don't want it included or set it to AUTOmatic if you do want it included.



brucek

[lovingdvd]

brucek wrote:

Yes, but the sub has to have that headroom. You'd be far better to post your graph so we can see it.

Is it possible to post the mdat file so you can see everything including the filters?

Yes, most receivers allow a different crossover than 80Hz. If yours is fixed at 80Hz that is fine.

Mine definitely has variable xo. For instance I can move it up from 80hz, to say 90hz, 100hz, 110hz etc. I thought what Ivaols was saying was to set things so it does not play anything at all below the xo. Because of the slope that would mean setting the xo quite high. I'd like to get the xo point as high as possible. But my concern is localization of the sub. If I start sending say 90hz or more to the sub won't I risk localization?

REW does what you ask. The Help file says:

"The filter settings can be manually adjusted to improve the correction, typically adjusting the Q values and using Adjust PK Gains to readjust the gains to suit. The graph traces update as the adjustments are made making the process fast and easy. Adjust PK Gains alters the gains of all Automatic filters to bring the response at their centre frequencies to the target level. Q is not altered."

So simply set a filter to MANual if you don't want it included or set it to AUTOmatic if you do want it included.

brucek

Yes I had read that and tried setting mine to AUTO. However when I told it to optimize things after I added my manual one in it REMOVED all my manual entries. So I figured that in order for the entries to "stick" manual entries must be set as Manual. Obviously I am missing something here? Thanks!

[brucek]

But my concern is localization of the sub. If I start sending say 90hz or more to the sub won't I risk localization?

Yes, leave it at 80Hz. You took what Ivaols said too literal. He meant set the xo at 80Hz.

Is it possible to post the mdat file so you can see everything including the filters?

Yea, you can just attach an mdat file just like you attach a pic. I'd rather see the pic too...

Obviously I am missing something here? Thanks!

Just play around. You'll get it..

brucek