Do I need room EQ?

**clausdk** · **07-01-07, 04:26 PM**

Quote:

brucek wrote:

hehehe, when you're talking to JohnM in this thread, you are talking to the author of REW - John Mulcahy

This is above the influence of the subwoofer considering the bass management crossover will have lowered the subs output at this frequency quite considerably. The mains are the biggest influence at that frequency.
Normally, we disconnect the mains and check the response of the sub alone and then equalize. Then we add the mains and observe the crossover area (i.e. 80Hz) for interaction problems that may be corrected with placement, phase control, distance adjustments and some equalization tweaking..

Good tip, I'll try do see if I can isolate the sub on my reciever, I guess I can remove the speaker cables from the mains or how would one go about that?

I'm still a bit confused why it wasn't working and now it is? can't argue with success though

Well as it turns out, and this is very frustrating, the SPL meter has a loose connection!!! So even though I connected it correctly it didnt give me any readings. When using it now, I still have to "fiddle" with the plug on the SPL meter to make sure it works...quite annoying.
Also, and this is the embarresing part I was trying out all different kinds of plugs on the soundcard and realised at one point that the microphone input and line in arent the same ones...However when then using line in I got no reading - because of the above problem which led to more confusion. All in all it was a quite frustration experience! but thanks a alot of help from this site, its now working.

brucek

/claus

**brucek** · **07-01-07, 06:55 PM**

Quote:

I guess I can remove the speaker cables from the mains or how would one go about that?

Yeah, simply disconnect the mains cables (with the power off) and then do the test with the sub only. Usually, you'll do the testing with the receiver in stereo mode, so the other HT speakers remain off too.

Quote:

When using it now, I still have to "fiddle" with the plug on the SPL meter to make sure it works.

Maybe you can take it apart and try and fix it. RCA connectors are so crummy...
It's good you found the reasons for the trouble.....

brucek

**djjhawk** · **07-01-07, 11:17 PM**

Quote:

brucek wrote:

hehehe, when you're talking to JohnM in this thread, you are talking to the author of REW - John Mulcahy

Geez, you would have to tell me that wouldn't ya!

Argh, user #2, how'd I miss that.

I suppose that means Sonnie is #1.

Shoot, better go look, be right back....

BTW, great job John!

Thanks for all the effort you put forth to write this outstanding program.

OK, I know, but at this point isn't a little sucking up imperative! Hey, anyone know what happened to that smiley that puts his foot in his mouth!

OK, all kidding aside, now I'm a little concerned that my sound card's not functioning properly. There seems to be an abnormally high number of problems with getting the Audigy 2 to function properly, not just with REW but with other applications as well.

What I'm wondering is if most of the problems aren't related to how these cards are being installed. Although I can't remember seeing any reference made to it by Creative Sound, I've read several reviews that indicted it is best to uninstall the drivers and disable the on-board sound before installing the Audigy 2. On my laptop, the Phoenix BIOS does not have provisions to turn off the on-board sound. So I was left with the choice of disabling or uninstalling the drivers at the operating system level. I've never been comfortable doing this. I was worried when XP rebooted from the Audigy install, that it would also attempt to reinstall the Realtek drivers, so I simply disabled them.

In the end, it appeared that the Audigy 2 install program uninstalled the Realtek drivers anyway. After I got the Audigy 2 to function I went ahead and reinstalled a newer version of the Realtek drivers.

So I'm left with several questions. Is my Audigy 2 operating properly, if unmuting the source line-in unmutes the line-in in the windows play controls? Is this an anomaly only found on the pcmcia version of the card? Or is it because I didn't get a clean install or possibly corrupted the Audigy 2 drivers when I re-installed the Realtek drivers? Or maybe I lost the analog mixer option as a result of some or all of the above? After thinking about it awhile, I think the way John described the operation of the source controls in relationship to the analog mixer makes more sense than how my controls are currently operating.

If someone gets a chance, it would be very helpful if they could please verify a couple of things. First, does anyone have any experience with the pcmcia Audigy 2. In particular, the surround mixer operation? If so, does your card have the analog mixer? If not, does the card operate like mine? I think this could be verified by opening all three audio control panels and seeing which controls are affected by changing the Audigy 2 source line-in mute. Mine affects the play control line-in.

I may go ahead and uninstall everything, do a clean install and not reinstall the Realtek drivers. I wish I could shut my on-board sound off in the bios, then I might be better able to verify my concerns regarding faulty installs creating most of the problems with the Audigy 2. I'm afraid it doesn't prove much without the option in the bios.

Again, all kidding aside, I'd like to thank John for taking the time to create such a great program! And thanks to everyone at the Shack for all their support!

**djjhawk** · **07-01-07, 11:22 PM**

Hey Claus....good to hear you found the proble!

**clausdk** · **07-02-07, 11:23 AM**

Thanks!

Today I ordered the Behringer DSP 1124P. They did have the FBQ in stock as well, but reading through the BFD guide it seems the 1124 is preferable as it can store many presets. The 1124P is also cheaper, payed 100 Euro ~ 130 $.

On top of that I ordered a good deal of cables so that's another ~ 150 $ approx. That midi interface is fairly expensive.

Total system will be around 350 $ including the SPL meter. For comparison the SMS-1 retails for around 1350 $ in Denmark. Stress price a little lower. So if I can get this to work I still saved around 1000 $ which is enough that I can actually buy a new subwoofer!

It will take a few days before it arrive unfortunately! I can't wait to get startet.

Even though I havet EQ'd anything yet, just by going through all that trouble getting the REW to work I've learned alot and was able to set my reciever more accurately and I have improved sound already. Very happy for that.

Again, thanks for this forum and all the help I recieved.

**clubfoot** · **07-03-07, 12:36 PM**

Quote:

djjhawk wrote:

I may go ahead and uninstall everything, do a clean install and not reinstall the Realtek drivers. I wish I could shut my on-board sound off in the bios, then I might be better able to verify my concerns regarding faulty installs creating most of the problems with the Audigy 2. I'm afraid it doesn't prove much without the option in the bios.

Doing a complete reinstall is a good start, and DO NOT reinstall the Realtek drivers if the Creative install removes them or they will be fighting over the same resources,....audio/sound. I can recommend the M-Audio UNO for midi/usb hook up and the M-Audio Buddy for mic pre amp if you decide to purchase an ECM8000.

**djjhawk** · **07-03-07, 10:19 PM**

Thanks but....

I uninstalled everything, Realtek and Creative. Reinstalled the Audigy 2 and it works just like it did before, which seems to be fine. After checking everything out and verifying the operation with REW, I reinstalled the Realtek drivers. As far as I can see everything works great without any problems.

If I would have thought about it a little more I would have realized there is no need for an analog mixer on the pcmcia Audigy 2. The pcmcia card only has 3 connectors available at the card edge. Two 3.5 mm connectors, one for Microphone In/Line In/Optical In and the other for Headphone/Optical Out and a third connector for a special speaker docking cable. Since the input jack can only be used for one device at a time, there is no need for an analog (duh) mixer.

Creative has also provided a recorder selection on the pcmcia card called "What U Hear", which can be used in conjunction with the surround mixer to mix internally generated signals with the single line-in connector.

Other Audigy 2 cards have multiple input connections and require the analog mixer. As it was pointed out earlier, the analog mixer needs some form of control to select multiple hardware inputs.

Thanks for your input on the card you suggested, I'll certainly keep it in mind for future reference. Looks like a good device for a good price. For now, I'm happy with the Audigy 2, especially for the 38 bucks delivered I paid. I'm not sure I would have bought it though, if I had to pay full price.

**clausdk** · **07-09-07, 07:01 AM**

Got the behringer and working with it right now!

Got midi working too!

Can't seem to get the BFD to work with the filters - its flashing red on the 12 band EQ ever since i downloaded the filters from the REW to it.

**brucek** · **07-09-07, 07:41 AM**

Quote:

Can't seem to get the BFD to work with the filters - its flashing red on the 12 band EQ

Are you able to manually manipulate and store filters in a program without any problem?

brucek

**clausdk** · **07-09-07, 08:12 AM**

Yes, using preset 5 I was able to put, as a test -30ish gain on 30 and 40 hz, then did a measurements and it showed in the REW graph. So it can clearly manipulate the signal.

Also when doing the manual tweaking the flashing red "filters 123...12 etc" turn to steady.

When i use the REW to download the filters it seems to be working but it's not "saving" them even though I manually press "store" on the BFD.

Also, preset 1-4 I cannot manually adjust those.

I've set everything I could to "PA" btw.

Still working with it....

**clausdk** · **07-09-07, 08:20 AM**

Ok I can edit completely preset one now. I need to go into each of the 12 filters for preset one and set them to PA they then stop flashing.

**clausdk** · **07-09-07, 08:26 AM**

When I send the filters to the BFD using the REW I get no error message it seems just fine. I then head over to the BFD after I have send them and hit "store" into "preset" 1. However it does not overwrite the ones I made manuelly. Why? I have no clue.

**clubfoot** · **07-09-07, 08:57 AM**

Quote:

clausdk wrote:

Got the behringer and working with it right now!

Got midi working too!

Can't seem to get the BFD to work with the filters - its flashing red on the 12 band EQ ever since i downloaded the filters from the REW to it.

You need to program/setup the Behringer to accept and store the filters. There is a step by step guide somewhere on this site, but I can't seem to locate it now.

**brucek** · **07-09-07, 09:01 AM**

I'm assuming that your BFD has the new firmware V1.4 and you're aware that midi doesn't work with V1.3 as shown in this thread?.

brucek

**JimP** · **07-09-07, 09:24 AM**

Is it possible to buy the BFD with V1.4 already loaded?

**clausdk** · **07-09-07, 09:27 AM**

No I wasnt aware of this.

More equipment now hehe, eprom etc...wow. Reading briefly through that thread it seems Behringer custormer support might ship them though.

Here's a graph of manuel inputting. I guess once its done I don't need to do it anymore anyways so...wasted a little money on the midi interface though.

first try.jpg

**brucek** · **07-09-07, 09:58 AM**

Quote:

I guess once its done I don't need to do it anymore anyways so...wasted a little money on the midi interface though.

Well, exactly. Entering the filters certainly isn't something you do every day. Personally, I've never entered filters using a midi. I just enter them by hand. Takes only seconds....

brucek

**clausdk** · **07-09-07, 10:04 AM**

Yeps really, was fast.

I realise this is my entire systems responsecurve. I can't seem to get rid of the dip at 63hz. Boosted 5db around that area. I tried with 6db but didn't really change it that much. I'm going to try and boost the overall sub level and then decrease it where the peaks are in hope of raising that dip. Time's run out now though will try later! it's fun and a quick listening test indicated a smoother bass response indeed.

**clausdk** · **07-09-07, 11:20 AM**

More tweaking.

A bit confused that my system barely makes any sound between 120-150hz....a whole region missing there.

second graph.jpg

What do you think sbout the results?

**brucek** · **07-09-07, 11:41 AM**

Quote:

What do you think sbout the results?

I would first want to see the 'sub only' graph and then the 'mains only' graph.

brucek

**clausdk** · **07-09-07, 12:15 PM**

Oki.

Mains only:
mains only.jpg

Sub alone with no EQ:
sub alone without eq.jpg

Sub alone with EQ. and 80hz crossover:
sub alone with eq.jpg

Sub alone with EQ. and 150hz crossover:
sub with eq and crossover 150hz.jpg

**brucek** · **07-09-07, 01:54 PM**

Very interesting.

Certainly the mains alone shows that the room attributes to a dip at 63Hz and a large dip at 150Hz. Not too unusual.

The sub alone though, looks almost as if the crossover is incorrect somehow.... You don't happen to have a local crossover at the sub amp itself set to other than bypass (or max) do you?

Here's an 80dB level showing the sub and mains signal for a 80Hz crossover. Your sub graph with a 150Hz crossover looks more like the target of 80Hz shown below.

Have you tried raising the crossover and seeing how the graphs look of sub + mains at higher than 80Hz crossovers?

sub and mains at 80.jpg

brucek

**clausdk** · **07-09-07, 02:41 PM**

Thanks alot for the comments.

The dips at 63hz and then 125 hz appearently are inherent room problems.

Using this formula for fiding room modes:
F=m1130/2D

F = frequency
m = mode harmonic first second etc
D = distance between two parallel surfaces
1130 = approx speed of sound

feet 12,80 19,36 7,87
1 44,16 29,19 71,76
2 88,31 58,38 143,51
3 132,47 87,57 215,27
4 176,63 116,75 287,02

Sorta shows those frequencies I got problems with, the 44 hz and ~ 58 and 71 hz, albiet mines at 63 really. Well thats theory I guess. Interresting nontheless.

I'm going to try and alter the crossover frequency for the whole system and see what it does. From the top of my head I believe I did that but dont have a graph right now.

Btw!
Discovered an entirely new problem. For music I select "pure direct" on my reciever. I then measured with the EW filter on and the readings are now way off. Also the db level i smuch higher - it's as if the reciever directs more power to the frontspeakers when they operate alone. This makes it hard to make one setting. Alas, I'm going to make another setting on the BFD for music listening.

Doesnt anyone else also find this a problem? with different levels depending on what setting your reciever is on?

/claus

**clubfoot** · **07-10-07, 08:24 AM**

Quote:

clausdk wrote:

Btw!
Discovered an entirely new problem. For music I select "pure direct" on my reciever. I then measured with the EW filter on and the readings are now way off. Also the db level i smuch higher - it's as if the reciever directs more power to the frontspeakers when they operate alone. This makes it hard to make one setting. Alas, I'm going to make another setting on the BFD for music listening.

Doesnt anyone else also find this a problem? with different levels depending on what setting your reciever is on?

/claus

Yes, most definitely. Pure Direct on my Integra 8.3 (used as a pre/pro only) shuts down the video section, disables "most" of the signal processing and sets the fronts to large w/o sub. When calibrating my sub I have to set all speakers to small, stereo with sub, peak bass limiter off, sub xover to max to get a really nice curve that follows the 80Hz target. If I change it to Pro Logic II Music it looks completely different, however Movie mode looks allot like stereo! Go figure.

**clausdk** · **07-10-07, 08:30 AM**

Ok glad to hear that actually, then im not alone

Working great for movies now still working on music settings.

Strongly considering a new sub though!
I feel I'm missing completely out on any sub 28hz material!

Btw, going off to work for a week, so out of the house, will do more tests next week. (gotta make some money to pay for this passion of mine!)

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