Dual RL-p15 D2 LLT Sub Project...

**SteveCallas** · **03-10-07, 08:02 PM**

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Sonnie wrote:

Then we turned off the behemoth and played WOTW at the normal level I listen with only the SVS subs in the front playing. This produced a max SPL of 114.5db during the scenes where the machine was blasting people at the beginning of the movie

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Then we turned on the behemoth and replayed those scenes at the same level...

Max SPL hit 122.8 at that same level on the receiver. We were all astounded at how much SPL it added at that same level. Of course I've never felt impact like that ever.... yes not ever!!! Not one sign of strain on the dual RL-p15 behemoth... it's like it was just getting warmed up.

Compression, the silent killer. There's a lot of people out there who just don't know what they are missing - I think today you just found out

The great thing with an amp limited design is that as long as your amp is within visible range, you will know when the sub is close to reaching its limits, as it should correspond pretty well to the clipping lights. Seeing as your sub is even a bit underpowered with the EP2500, if you don't see any clipping lights, the sub isn't close to being stressed at all. It's a good feeling.

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Sonnie wrote:

I'm not sure exactly what frequency range those blasts are, but they are loud none the less.

I believe they are centered at ~30hz. With a wooden floor, those laser blasts can really create some bounce.

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Sonnie wrote:

I'm just not sure it gets any better than this... words just don't do it justice.

With that final in room response and the headroom on board, it is pretty tough to do any better. A couple 18s and a larger enclosure could get you flat to at least 10hz with more headroom and lower distortion, but I think you'll find what you have to be plenty

What you will find though is that the low end of the SVS subs will now be a bottleneck in regards to overall low end performance. By that I mean if you have them both playing at an equal level, the low end capabilities of the SVS don't match those of the LLT, and while both may be providing the same output at 50hz when level matched, it won't be the same story at say 15hz. But don't let my pontificating spoil the celebration

The sub looks amazingly cool, that shape really turned out for the best. Truth be told, I was a little worried about the exterior port openings being so far apart in relation to you sitting 6' away, but it seems to have turned out fine. You're getting plenty of boundary gain with that sub nestled against the back wall the way it is, your speakers will definitely give out before this sub does. Those VR2s will suit your bass capability much better.

Rodny, that is some great work, and in pretty record time too

You are very skilled.

**Rodny Alvarez** · **03-10-07, 08:05 PM**

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WillyD wrote:

Fantastic work Rodny, you're a real pro.

Thanks!!!

You guys need to give Sonnie some credit

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**SteveCallas** · **03-10-07, 08:12 PM**

Sonnie, if you are interested in finding out where the real world tune ended up being, you can center the mic a few inches under one of the drivers and do a FR sweep. If you don't really care and just want to enjoy it, I definitely understand

**steve nn** · **03-10-07, 10:32 PM**

Holy guacamole!!!.. What am I looking at here?? Talk about a nice looking DIY project and a well executed design. I would like to compliment Sonnie for doing what it takes (including helping with the project) and for coming up with the $$ to make it happen. Rodny your work is most excellent, not to brag, but I know how to see through pics with doing plenty of projects myself and I can see your attention to detail was handled beautifully...it really shows. That's a very large surface area to work with and plenty of room to go wrong. For the finish to come out as good as it did, it not only required a lot of skill finishing, but in the building of the unit itself.. for the finish to come out so well. Gladiator!.. I salute you

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I've got plenty of money

to start another project!!

ha ha

Best laugh I've had all day.

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What you will find though is that the low end of the SVS subs will now be a bottleneck in regards to overall low end performance. By that I mean if you have them both playing at an equal level, the low end capabilities of the SVS don't match those of the LLT, and while both may be providing the same output at 50hz when level matched, it won't be the same story at say 15hz.

No doubt about it Steve. 50hz is one thing, but down low there will be cancellations. All in all, the dual 15" RL-p LLT will have a way of plowing through, although it'll be hampered. Do you have your /2 or /2's running in the 16 Sonnie?

**Sonnie** · **03-10-07, 11:11 PM**

Quote:

SteveCallas wrote:

Sonnie, if you are interested in finding out where the real world tune ended up being, you can center the mic a few inches under one of the drivers and do a FR sweep. If you don't really care and just want to enjoy it, I definitely understand

I will check it and see... I didn't even think about it today... we were having so much fun. I would like to know.

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steve nn wrote:

No doubt about it Steve. 50hz is one thing, but down low there will be cancellations. All in all, the dual 15" RL-p LLT will have a way of plowing through, although it'll be hampered. Do you have your /2 or /2's running in the 16 Sonnie?

Yes.... they are both tuned to 16Hz.

You can see they run out of steam below 16Hz where you see the rear sub holding it's own. If you look at the combined response, they seem to compliment each other very well. They sure sound good together. Of course I wouldn't mind having a couple of 18" sonotubes in the front corners either... :holycow: ... nah.. better not, I'm already jarring my brain enough.

**SteveCallas** · **03-10-07, 11:36 PM**

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Sonnie wrote:

I didn't even think about it today... we were having so much fun

I can imagine - almost like you want to rewatch your favorites right? When you get a chance, check out the footsteps near the end of Monster House. Though not much in the way of infrasonics, it has become one of my favorite bass scenes.

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If you look at the combined response, they seem to compliment each other very well. They sure sound good together

Yes, they merge very well, as if it were meant to be.

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Of course I wouldn't mind having a couple of 18" sonotubes in the front corners either... ... nah.. better not, I'm already jarring my brain enough

Now you're talking

Sell the Plus/2s and use a fraction of your earnings to build (or pay Rodny to build

) some sono LLTs up front. You'll not only end up with better bass performance, you'll have extra

in your pocket when it's all said and done. Think about it, you'll be earning money to get better bass. Crazy eh?

**steve nn** · **03-10-07, 11:49 PM**

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Yes.... they are both tuned to 16Hz.

Great! I did see the graph, but didn't know if the RL-p had to compensate or not. With your headroom your sitting good and cancellations are basically a non factore. Wow!..what a setup!

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you'll be earning money to get better bass

What a interesting concept Steve, I forgot about that knowing I still have a SVS left around here. me>

**Chrisbee** · **03-11-07, 05:28 AM**

Congratulations to all concerned. Superb result!

I can't even imagine what WOTW sounds like at that level.

**Exocer** · **03-12-07, 02:36 AM**

So, when are we welcome to come over?! I MUST hear this beast in action

On a serious note, Wow, just WOW. I would've never imagined the two subs to get along so well. Amazing job overall. This certainly has me thinking about some ported options as a next project.

Congratulations Sonnie, and Rodney Excellent work. You get an A+

**Sonnie** · **03-12-07, 06:32 PM**

Thanks for all the comps and anyone is welcome anytime at our home... we'll leave the light on...

**Rodny Alvarez** · **03-12-07, 07:26 PM**

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Rodney Excellent work. You get an A+

Thanks everybody!!!

My head its getting bigger, its about to

**Rodny Alvarez** · **03-12-07, 10:15 PM**

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Sonnie wrote:

Something tells me you ain't gonna relax... you'll be starting that rear sub project.

Not rear but........IB makeover

Now is time for two dual "SLLT"

Spoiler

**Sonnie** · **03-12-07, 10:50 PM**

Now this is gonna be interesting, to say the least...

You might as well start a new thread and tell everyone what's going on.

**SteveCallas** · **03-12-07, 11:53 PM**

I've been waitingfor something like this - I always thought I was gonna have to be the first person to try it since everyone else seemed afraid. Should be excellent.

Sonnie, any updates on the real world tune or any ponderings of the future of the Plus/2s? You could probably get some good money for them

I'm a SOB ain't I?

**Sonnie** · **03-13-07, 11:16 AM**

My mic is gone off for calibration down to 5Hz, so it will be a couple of weeks on the tune frequency... don't let me forget.

I suspect I'll keep the Plus/2's... they hold their own pretty well. I don't think I'd be saving any moola though. By the time I buy the drivers, amp(s), wood, paint, etc., and add labor... I'll actually be at more than what I can get for the Plus/2's. However, all that is really irrelevant at this time. It's spring and summer is fast approaching... all my extra time is spent keeping up our land and pond... and that's a lot of work and leaves me little time to play during the day. Maybe one day I'll tackle an 18" LLT project on my own... then it might make more sense moola wise.

**Sonnie** · **03-13-07, 10:48 PM**

Here's a better shot to show how tall the unit is in relation to the recliners.

**Rodny Alvarez** · **03-13-07, 11:48 PM**

Hey Sonnie.........you look a little green there!

**Sonnie** · **03-13-07, 11:50 PM**

**buggers** · **03-14-07, 04:31 PM**

I just got my RLP-18 in and I'm going to make a 24" Sonotube. Mike says I can use between 13-23 CuFt which if my calculations are correct would make it about 7.5 feet tall? Dunno if the wifes gonna like that.

**Sonnie** · **03-14-07, 06:52 PM**

That's pretty tall... should be awesome! Be sure to start up a new thread with your build...

**Ilkka** · **03-15-07, 12:56 AM**

Quote:

SteveCallas wrote:

Compression, the silent killer. There's a lot of people out there who just don't know what they are missing - I think today you just found out

Though it may seem that I'm arguing with you more than usually, I wanted to grab on this when I noticed that you brought it up again in Rodny's thread.

"If he was somehow experiencing any compression previously, like you unknowingly were with even two Plus/2s, that won't be the case anymore."

We should remember that even if those two subs were calibrated at the same level, he would still have a ~6 dB gain when both are playing at the same time. So it doesn't mean that the SVS' were compressing by 122.8-114.5 dB=8.3 dB. When you subtract the 6 dB you'll have 2.3 dB, and that can be explained by the different frequency responses.

So nothing shows that Sonnie's SVS' were yet compressing. Based on experience with my own Plus/2, I'd say he will have to push them over 120 dB until any major compression sets in. It can be easily tested by running the same scene at rising output level (for example -10RL, -5RL, RL and so on) with an RTA running (peak hold on) behind.

**Sonnie** · **03-15-07, 01:09 AM**

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It can be easily tested by running the same scene at rising output level (for example -10RL, -5RL, RL and so on) with an RTA running (peak hold on).

Running just the pair of SVS subs? I can probably test this Friday since I'm taking off to fiddle with the room some.

Steve, I can also test that tuning frequency... I'll just use my CM-140 with the ECM8000 cal file. It will tell us what we wanna know anyway.

**Ilkka** · **03-15-07, 01:17 AM**

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Sonnie wrote:

Running just the pair of SVS subs? I can probably test this Friday since I'm taking off to fiddle with the room some.

Yes, just SVS subs. When you find their limits, you can add the DIY sub and see how much higher it can take you. Though it's not healthy to push SVS' into more than ~5 dB of compression.

I assume you also have TrueRTA since it can't be done with REW.

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Steve, I can also test that tuning frequency... I'll just use my CM-140 with the ECM8000 cal file. It will tell us what we wanna know anyway.

Yup.

**SteveCallas** · **03-15-07, 01:19 AM**

Sonnie, was the ~123db achieved with the SVS AND LLT running, or just the LLT? I was under the impression it was from just the LLT. And if both, was the sub level knocked down 6db before replaying the scene or lef as is?

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Ilkka wrote:

Though it may seem that I'm arguing with you more than usually

Again, no worries, it's not arguing, it's discussing

**Sonnie** · **03-15-07, 01:31 AM**

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Ilkka wrote:

Yes, just SVS subs. When you find their limits, you can add the DIY sub and see how much higher it can take you. Though it's not healthy to push SVS' into more than ~5 dB of compression.

I assume you also have TrueRTA since it can't be done with REW.

No, I don't have TrueRTA... I though you meant using an SPL meter...

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SteveCallas wrote:

Sonnie, was the ~123db achieved with the SVS AND LLT running, or just the LLT? I was under the impression it was from just the LLT. And if both, was the sub level knocked down 6db before replaying the scene or lef as is?

Yes.... both subs running. Both subs were level matched and left the same. All we did was hold up the SPL meter during the same ~30 second scene and played just the SVS subs to start with, got the max reading and then turned on the LLT with the SVS subs and got another max reading.

I can do each separately if it will help to determine something useful.

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