Dual RL-P18 LLT for my 2000 cu ft HT soon

**Blaser** · **06-04-07, 05:42 PM**

So why when swiching to Flanged in Winisd, the length decreases?

**Blaser** · **06-04-07, 05:53 PM**

Hi Steve....Nice to see you around and thanks for your generous help in this world

... The problem I have with MDF is of a complete different nature from strength or SQ.... I don't know how I will get it to my house due to it's weight

....I am really not joking, the boxes will be bigger than getting into the lift (yes it is a small one for my private building), and both of them will have to be carried-up through the stairs to the third flour

(boxmaker expects them to be 300 Lb+ with 3 layers front baffle)

And I do not want to start with scratches or so either

**brucek** · **06-04-07, 06:00 PM**

Quote:

So why when swiching to Flanged in Winisd, the length decreases?

I think that member collo has a good site about flares

He says:

The generally accepted adjustment is to subtract half the flare radius from the physical length to obtain the effective length. If both ends of the port are flared, the adjustment is done for each flare.

These ports have a flare radius of about 1 inch, so your design length of 17 inches means you build a port that is 18 inches from end to end.

So if you have a length in WinISD and you add a flare, you need to shorten that length to accomodate the flare length.

brucek

**Blaser** · **06-04-07, 06:05 PM**

Thanks Brucek!! and maybe Unibox takes the flare length into account so that the indicated length of the port increases....This might be the diference.

**Blaser** · **06-05-07, 04:16 PM**

Guys....The subs arrived today!!!!

They are huge....I knew they are, but it is a completely different feel to see them...I must admit I was a bit afraid:holycow: These drivers are for my tiny 1800 cuft room??:raped:

I bought some accessories: 8 binding posts, 15m 14 gauge cable, 8" PVC pipes, and I also ordered the insulation material....(it is 1" corrugated sheets of polyfill....the seller qualified it as an "acoustic sponge"....and it is a sponge material isn't it). see photo.

Tomorrow should begin the fabrication with either 22 mm MDF(veneered maybe) or 18mm plywood (whichever is available), while the insulation material should be received on Thursday....Painting to be applied Thursday/Friday, and Hopefully you should see the first FR Saturday.

Note: 8" are huge really

, I don't know how on earth I could hear any shuffing, or reaching core velocity....But concerning the drivers that's another story....I am pretty certain only one driver would reach RL quite easily....We'll see

**planet10** · **06-05-07, 04:38 PM**

Quote:

SteveCallas wrote:

realize that a LLT is one of the least demanding subwoofer enclosure applications, as the force created by the driver is spread out over such a large area (large enclosure), meaning lower pressure than say a small sealed sub using the same driver.

Most of the energy transmitted to a box is mechanical coupling from the driver mounted into the box. Internal air pressure -- even in a sub is, at max, 1/3rd of the energy and particularly in a vented box, much less than that,

A larger box means larger panels which are easier to excite... it should be well braced and ideally no 2 subpanels should be the same (in practise thou you will probably have pairs of identically shaped sub-panels on opposing sides of the box). You do want to avoid subpanels that have dimensions close to one another. Given a panel, the best brace orientation is the one that divides it into panels most removed from being square (ie in a floorstander a shelf brace is much less effective than a longitudinal brace. I'd try for sub-panels less than 12" (you only need consider the smaller dimension in a rectangle)

dave

**Blaser** · **06-05-07, 04:53 PM**

Dave...you complicate things too much...I bet what you're talking about couldn't be perceived without measurments. I have build my car sub with no bracing at all and it is pounding 130+db at listening position.... And it is pretty flat down to 25 Hz. Bracing is good certainly, but IMO not so critical as you think.

Blaser

**planet10** · **06-05-07, 06:21 PM**

Quote:

blaser wrote:

I bet what you're talking about couldn't be perceived without measurments

It is actually easy to hear and hard to measure.

Quote:

I have build my car sub with no bracing at all and it is pounding 130+db at listening position.... And it is pretty flat down to 25 Hz.

With typical cabin gain in a car that last is a next to meaningless spec. And i guess if all you are interested in is pounding then the side walls acting as passive radiators would be a good ting.

dave

**steve nn** · **06-06-07, 04:20 AM**

Quote:

Note: 8" are huge really, I don't know how on earth I could hear any shuffing, or reaching core velocity....But concerning the drivers that's another story....I am pretty certain only one driver would reach RL quite easily....We'll see

chuffing....No it's not going to happen! Although I have no experience with the 18" RL-p, I have quite a bit with a single and dual 15" RL-p drivers in a leaky 2880 sq ft room.. your gonna have massive headroom. I cant imagine you being in need of more performance/bass, I mean really!!

Cant wait to hear your impression of what just a single unit can dish out, along with all the pics.

**Blaser** · **06-06-07, 06:14 PM**

Hi Steve and all Friends at HTS

Unfortunately (is it?) I have been used to car bass, of course I will never ask the subs to produce that kind of loud bass though I think they could (because noise floor is much lower at home....and the equivalent of car satisfaction at home would be at -10 db or so for me)....Nevertheless I just want to have clean, deep bass with unvelievable headroom to close this bass upgrade illness forever.

I have been designing the boxes all day, and I have been to a workshop to have the wood cut at night. I found some good 1" MDF instead of the initial 22 mm.

That's all I could do today, I have some photos that will be uploaded later (I'm too tired). I must admit that I did half what I expected with twice more effort than I thought....

Tomorrow will start the assembly and I hope to have them painted on friday. I can't wait to see the results.

I have a quick question for you fellas:
- would you let the speaker cables under or above insulation?

Note: I was quite disappointed with the lack of strength/hardness of MDF (Not that it flexes but it is very easily scratched and corners very easily broken...although I bought the finest I could find)...I don't know if an external layer of veneer would make the box more resistant....Anyway I hope SQ will be worth the use of MDF...

But overall I am happy.

Thanks all!

**Blaser** · **06-06-07, 06:16 PM**

Steve_nn,

I promiss to let you have anything I note about a single unit as soon as ready

.

Best Regards

**Blaser** · **06-06-07, 06:44 PM**

Quote:

planet10 wrote:

It is actually easy to hear and hard to measure.

Sorry, there's no such thing as "easy to hear and hard to measure"

...Ilkka, pls give us your opinion.

Quote:

With typical cabin gain in a car that last is a next to meaningless spec. And i guess if all you are interested in is pounding then the side walls acting as passive radiators would be a good ting.
dave

I am not only interested in "pounding", though this is a very important factor to enjoy a sub IMO. Side walls acting as a radiator is quite an exageration also

**planet10** · **06-06-07, 06:59 PM**

Quote:

blaser wrote:

Sorry, there's no such thing as "easy to hear and hard to measure"

Sure there are. Lots of them.

Quote:

Side walls acting as a radiator is quite an exageration also

Not at all.

dave

**aceinc** · **06-06-07, 07:41 PM**

I suspect that there are things that are easy to hear, but difficult to measure, without specialized equipment or techniques. For example, measuring a sub's freq response, does not tell you how damped it is, a waterfall plot may help with that.

Regarding the physical logistics of moving a 300# sub, can the final fabrication be done in place? Perhaps the baffle could be separate, and mounted in the room, and of course the drivers and electronics can be mounted in room. Is there any reason not to make two cabinets? If I'm not mistaken (and I quite often am) the volume needed for a dual cabinet is ~twice the size of a single. This would cut the cabinet size in half, making moving a bit easier. A bit more wood is needed, however.

Of course two 150# cabinets wouldn't be as impressive when they crash through the floor to the room below.:raped:

Paul

**steve nn** · **06-06-07, 09:56 PM**

Quote:

would you let the speaker cables under or above insulation?

Doesn't matter, I would just be sure you give yourself a little extra on the leads to assist in putting in the driver. A extra 1/2 inch just doesn't cut it.

Quote:

(is it?)

It is!

Quote:

Note: I was quite disappointed with the lack of strength/hardness of MDF (Not that it flexes but it is very easily scratched and corners very easily broken...although I bought the finest I could find)

Working with such large panels can be quite daunting and one needs to factor this in when handling them.. a guy really has to watch the corners. Just do the best you can and everything can be squared up in the end. You might consider rounding all the corners and edges off after it's completed? It's really easy to do.

Quote:

3) reflecting high frequencies at an angle will increase the amount of travel before they will go through the speaker cone, (as opposed to hitting a flat piece of wood and bouncing right back) decreasing their amplitude

I have thought of this, but never tried it.. good idea imo. Since your units are so large, might I suggest you seriously consider this blaser? I think I might even line the braces? I don't mean to be presumptuous, but SQ is everything and things do make a difference. The 600 l unit I built might have benefited from this? I do notice that all the sono LLT's I've built have a slight edge in SQ over my box LLT. It could be attributed to a lot of things I admit, but none the same.. I have thought of this in the past.

**Blaser** · **06-11-07, 07:06 PM**

Hi all,

I have almost completed (painting only still not applied) and performed some listening tests for my project... The initial results are very positive...Photos and FRs will follow most probably tomorrow

Blaser

**steve nn** · **06-11-07, 08:41 PM**

Quote:

The initial results are very positive...Photos and FRs will follow most probably tomorrow

Way cool! I'll buy a bag of popcorn on the way home tomorrow in anticipation.

**Blaser** · **06-12-07, 05:14 PM**

Hi all,

I have now some time to post some pics and FR.

I ended with a 630 L approx tuned to 13.5 Hz pwered by ???? you'll see

**Blaser** · **06-12-07, 05:24 PM**

Front baffle is dual 25mm thick, with driver flush mounted and port flared externally by 25mm.

1"*1" Braces were used on the walls each 30 cm, and two lateral braces were applied perpendicular to the largest wall 107cm * 70 cm.

**Blaser** · **06-12-07, 05:56 PM**

Here is the FR....Red is equalized,more info will come about the design and the T amp soon.

**Blaser** · **06-12-07, 06:16 PM**

Before I have any comments I would like to thank each and every one on this forum who has participated in this thread, as well as given precious advice to me. Thanks also to Steve Callas who's famous article was behind this upgrade project, as well as his help.

Special thanks to Ilkka who has help me and teached me how to design a sub. I have been in communication with him for months and he never let me feel anytime he was fed up or so....Thank you Ilkka.

Ilkka was also behind my choice of the T-amp 2400....rated 2000 W into 8 ohms bridged. The manufacturer doesn't tell the 4 ohm power but it was measured and it will be around 2200-2300W RMS at 4 ohs bridged with quite low distrotion.

I am using it bridged at 4 ohms

I have hit 126 db uncorrected in room on some music material today at listening pos...4 m away from subs.

This Amp is weighing 25 Kg net

I got this delivered for less than the price of the Ep-2500...but that's in Egypt. This amp was used in the famous tests by Ilkka.

I will add another one, not because I need more bass, but because I see this amp is a steel for its specs.

More posts will come about my impressions....

**Blaser** · **06-12-07, 06:34 PM**

Here is the FR with mains for music and movie configurations

**brucek** · **06-12-07, 06:56 PM**

Looks good blaser.

Is the response you posted with both subs together?

Did you find any problems that were created or solved by having two?

I really think you should have sat inside one to get a picture.....

brucek

**Blaser** · **06-12-07, 06:56 PM**

Here are the mains, see the room effect...

**Blaser** · **06-12-07, 07:01 PM**

Quote:

brucek wrote:

Looks good blaser.

Is the response you posted with both subs together?

Did you find any problems that were created or solved by having two?

I really think you should have sat inside one to get a picture.....

brucek

Yes, this is both subs running.

Problems solved? yes definitely! That weird difference of 6 db between my left and right at 45-60 Hz is now gone....See the photo and you will understand why I am now feeling what a wall of bass is!!!

I gain 6 db up to 80 Hz compared to a single sub....The sound is amazing so simple as that

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