Dual RL-P18 LLT for my 2000 cu ft HT soon

**Blaser** · **06-12-07, 07:03 PM**

How do I finish them now? They are now used as huge tables and they carry many things...but I want to see a better look than bare MDF!!

**Blaser** · **06-12-07, 07:34 PM**

Quote:

brucek wrote:

I really think you should have sat inside one to get a picture.....

brucek

LOL...There is a photo of me and my daughter beside the opened box...As you see, Not only me but my wife as well could have joined me in this box

FYI, after I closed the sub, I needed to apply some silicon on the front baffle. Do you know how I did it, I got inside the box through the woofer's opening....And any future internal maintenance will be done this way

**Blaser** · **06-13-07, 09:25 AM**

On thing I have noted and which is quite amazing. With my old sub, I was hitting 115-116 db peaks. Now with the new ones, if I hit 112 db for ex. it seems much louder than say 115 db with the old sub.

Does the deaper bass play a role here?

I feel that a lot more courage is needed to hit 112 db with the new subs than with the old one... It seems a more difficult task (because I feel the sound is much higher....)

**SteveCallas** · **06-13-07, 10:06 AM**

Yes, that is what I found strange about some of your goals and comments for the new sub - the mentioning that your old one was hitting 115db+ peaks and it wasn't exactly a big deal......when you desired 130db levels I suspected you had hearing loss or something

Congrats on the build, it looks to be a big success! (Pun intended)

**Blaser** · **06-13-07, 10:12 AM**

LOL...so what explains the louder perception of the new subs when hitting the same SPL as the old sub.

Btw, I hit 126 db uncorrected yesterday, and I was not at max volume (but there was some compression though)

But it was much more scary than the feel I have in my car. Still weird...Is this the impact of very low frequencies?

**Blaser** · **06-13-07, 10:33 AM**

Some more pics

**tjambro** · **06-13-07, 09:46 PM**

Quote:

brucek wrote:

...I really think you should have sat inside one to get a picture.....

brucek

I agree completely!!

-Tom A.

**Blaser** · **06-14-07, 07:18 AM**

Quote:

steve nn wrote:

Cant wait to hear your impression of what just a single unit can dish out, along with all the pics.

Well, Yesterday I tried only one with roughly a 2000 W amp. bridged 8ohms. Indeed the FR is the same approx. But I was very surprized how powerful only a single driver is:raped:.... All the bass notes seemed natural (live), very precise, hits hard when needed and goes really deep when required. Multiple bass notes were not a concern at all!! It was playing simultaneous loud kick drums with background bass notes effortlessly.... When I pushed it hard, I had to go back to the boxes and check if I did not connect the other by error... This sub is a monster.

I played some "50 cent" with a single box and I was hitting 124 db peaks with my digital RS meter

. The amp clipping led was only occasionally slightly blinking, and no severe compression was noted. I can tell you that in my room RL in movies should not be a problem with a single driver....

If anyone likes me to do anything special, or any special test, I will be happy to

**Ilkka** · **06-14-07, 09:30 AM**

And if someone doubts those T.Amp power ratings, here's a measurement for you.

1826 W into ~8 ohms bridged @ 50 Hz @ 0.02% THD. With a slightly higher THD it will do 2000W.

**SteveCallas** · **06-14-07, 09:58 AM**

Are these sold or available in the US? The European price converts to under $300 (if I'm not mistaken) and it seems pretty beefy. Bink's test on a Carvin DCM2500 has me wondering a bit about the low end distortion capability of my Carvin amps.

**Ilkka** · **06-14-07, 10:08 AM**

Quote:

SteveCallas wrote:

Are these sold or available in the US? The European price converts to under $300 (if I'm not mistaken) and it seems pretty beefy. Bink's test on a Carvin DCM2500 has me wondering a bit about the low end distortion capability of my Carvin amps.

Unfortunately not. They are sold only through www.thomann.de which is a major AV/pro audio online store in Germany.

The T.Amp TA2400 MK-X

**Blaser** · **06-14-07, 04:40 PM**

One thing about the price of this amp: I had 20% discount as VAT is not applicable in my country....but I paid other local taxes.

**Blaser** · **06-15-07, 09:27 AM**

Hi all,

I need your help in analysing what's happening at listening position. I am open to suggestions....Pls advise!

**Blaser** · **06-15-07, 10:12 AM**

Here are the graphs with mains.

**Blaser** · **06-15-07, 04:06 PM**

Update: All of my neighbours were out today, and it was an opportunity to test the drivers/amp

for those who like Deep bass and would like to have an idea about the SPL performance of the RL-P18.

All tests were performed at listening pos at 4m from subs...5 second tests not more.

WOTW pode emerging scene:
Dual woofers: 126 db uncorrected RS SPL meter, amp clipped.
Single Woofer: 122 db amp clipped.

WOTW Laser Scene
SINGLE WOOFER:
125 db:raped:, amp clipped
I didn't dare to play this scene that high with dual woofers....but It would have been close to 128-129 db.

This is a car bass performance with much deeper bass

I think I need another amp

and maybe soundproof my room

**steve nn** · **06-17-07, 08:52 PM**

Quote:

But I was very surprized how powerful only a single driver is

That's some heavy-duty woof-age you got going there Blaze! Do you really think you need another amp though?

I mean your capability is really out there!

**JimP** · **06-17-07, 09:47 PM**

Quote:

blaser wrote:

...snip...

I think I need another amp

and maybe soundproof my room

....and some new ear drums.

Did you sense any internal body parts relocating?

**Blaser** · **06-18-07, 09:43 AM**

I will buy in the future another amp to be able to use the full capability of the subwoofers (just as an option)....as I find the price of the amp very cheep, and very performant. (If you ride a Ferrari, you do not have to go 200 miles an hour, but it is good to have the capability)

FYI, bass is not as hard to bear as mids and highs....I can probably enjoy 130db from 25 to 45 Hz...but cannot stand 110 db at say 1 Khz.

The sound of unstressed subs is very pleasant, and I beleive that one can never have enough headroom.The feeling of having limitless headroom is very very pleasant!!

Another update for you guys on M&C....The subs clipped the amp at the canon opening scene at 126 db SPL (RS reading)....But I did feel the cannons, I'm lucky my building is concrete

The drivers did not seem overstressed nor unable to comply, nor bottomed out with any program material without high pass....

....Only the amp clipping sound was noted.

For those who really think they can bottom out an LLT at moderate or even at extreme levels

.... I tell them that I have been playing M&C, and WOTW (2000W into a single RL-p18, 125 db at LP) and never bottomed out the sub.

If you have the space or can have it placed efficiently in room, go for an LLT....It is the very best/powerful/deepest subwoofer configuration I have ever heard

.

**Ilkka** · **06-18-07, 12:20 PM**

Quote:

blaser wrote:

The drivers did not seem overstressed nor unable to comply, nor bottomed out with any program material without high pass....

....Only the amp clipping sound was noted.

For those who really think they can bottom out an LLT at moderate or even at extreme levels

.... I tell them that I have been playing M&C, and WOTW (2000W into a single RL-p18, 125 db at LP) and never bottomed out the sub.

I can think of at least one person who might think differently.

**SteveCallas** · **06-18-07, 12:58 PM**

I would caution trying to "go for broke". You may not notice any sounds besides the amp clipping, but that doesn't necessarily mean you aren't stressing the driver pretty hard beyond its xmax. I believe the xmech is in the 40mm range, so physical damage may not be a concern, but what do you really gain by adding another 2000 watt amp except maybe the capability to bottom the drivers in the 20-30hz range or fry the coil?

When Ilkka mentioned that the TC2000 was able to handle up to 2000 watts, I initially thought I may have been off the mark with my amp limiting practice. However, after thinking about it more, the best one can hope to achieve by doubling the power is only 3db, and that's assuming no compression. I'm pretty sure his measurements will show some compression from the highest output level to the second highest, especially down low with the 6" port. In return, he found that he was able to get the driver to bottom between 20-30hz. When I weigh that potential benefit (3db under ideal circumstances) vs the drawback (the potential to damage a driver), I don't see any reason to go for it. I'd take your amp clipping as a red light.

As for that other fellow who thinks he was bottoming with low frequency material - and that his highpass saved the day - his intentions were never good willed to begin with. The whole thing was transparent from day one. If you will recall, he actually ranked several commercial 12" subs as being much more articulate than his frankensub

That shouldn't be a shock though seeing as his other tests have shown his strong preference for distortion.

**Ilkka** · **06-18-07, 01:12 PM**

Quote:

SteveCallas wrote:

I'm pretty sure his measurements will show some compression from the highest output level to the second highest, especially down low with the 6" port.

"Some" is such a vague term, but I can tell you that it didn't show "much" compression.

Quote:

In return, he found that he was able to get the driver to bottom between 20-30hz.

This is what I initially thought, but after some careful research, I'm almost 100% certain that it was the amp clipping instead.

Two reasons:

1) TC-Sounds have told me that it is pretty much impossible to mechanically bottom a TC-2000 with an older half-roll upper surround. It simply can not support >40mm one-way excursion without breaking up. The new high-roll surround is a different case. The one I tested had the older upper surround.

2) Heavy amp clipping can sound almost exactly like mechanical bottoming. It can easily fool you - even me.

I think Blaser's subwoofers are just fine with two 2000W amps.

**Sonnie** · **06-18-07, 01:12 PM**

I apologize for not realizing this thread is in the wrong forum earlier than now, but it should indeed be in the SoundSplinter forum. It is officially moved.

**SteveCallas** · **06-18-07, 01:54 PM**

Quote:

Ilkka wrote:

"Some" is such a vague term, but I can tell you that it didn't show "much" compression.

So would you classify it as a "bit" of compression?

I know you are still compiling all the data, but any way you could let the TC 2000 LLT output compression graph slip out under the radar (either onto this thread or in my PM box)?

**Ilkka** · **06-18-07, 02:25 PM**

Sorry Steve, but I would like to post all data at once in order to have a better "impact"...

**Blaser** · **06-18-07, 04:27 PM**

Hi Steve,

Glad to see you post here

. Thankfully you did not misunderstand my post(about bottoming the driver), I meant below tuning and not above

!! I do believe that your theory of subwoofer amp limiting is very good specially for beginners, but I think as well that similations only tell you the story if you were to work with a single frequency at a time, but not on real program material where multi-frequencies are to be reproduced simultaneously.

Yes if I used a sin wave at 20 Hz, the sub. would propably bottom, but on real material, it never happened. Don't misunderstand, I do respect what you say, but I think while similations are single frequency based, real material having multi frequencies to reproduce will use the amp power and "distribute it over these frequencies" with the woofer having less excursion overall!!

From the other side, it is very common that many manufacturers recommend to use twice to 4 times the speaker RMS power, why? because if 2000 W for ex. is to give you 10 db peaks, you will still be running at 200 W RMS. I think we can never have enough headroom for subs.

Last, if I ever add another amp. It won't be to add any SPL for my system, but to have a bit more headroom for short peaks.... But this will not be to improve the reading to be 130 db or so. It seems contradictory but that's it. The other reason to do so is that I want to stress the amps a bit less as I might disable the noisy fans (but that's another story).

Again, thanks for having helped me in my design specially the choice of the tune

you were right!!

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