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post #991 of 1075 Old 11-27-13, 08:45 PM
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Re: The Official $2,500 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

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What gives you hesitation about MTM for L/R? What other design formats would you consider?
I don't really understand your question nor who it is directed to. Can you elaborate?

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post #992 of 1075 Old 11-27-13, 09:00 PM
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Re: The Official $2,500 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

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While I agree that either situation would be more work and less play, that is the one element that helps tie a 2-ch set-up into a 5.1 / 7.1 envelope for HT or multi-channel music set-up. If I could get a better feel for how well a particular brand or model of center channel can integrate with the L+R, I would feel assured the overall system would be meeting my needs, and hopefully it would be info that other folks would find useful for the same reasons.

I suppose the best way to solve my concerns is get identical LCRs (and maybe surrounds too), but it seems a good center for my situation would be a MTM (horizontally), while I'm not sure whether I'd want MTMs (vertically) for L+R. That's where a "shootout" or evaluation thread would help me.

Still, enough whinging, and thanks again for this event and thread.

shinksma
Consider what we have done with the 2 channel evals. We focused on the parameter of sound stage. If we did a similar evaluation that used LCR, what would the placement and listening priorities be? LCR integration is far more dependent on placement and environment and source mix than any other variables. What would we meaningfully be able to tell you about an LCR combo other than finding severe issues with poor design that does not translate LR performance to LCR? A reasonably designed center using the same basic technology and voicing as LR speakers should perform quite well as LCR. At least in my experience. LCR systems simply will not have the same degree of image definition due to the nature of the mix and material.

The questions are completely different with LCR vs 2 channel. Different priorities and different considerations for variables for evaluation. We would need to come up with a model that focuses on those priorities. It was somewhat easier to do this with the 2 ch. evals because Sonnie's priorities provided us a good starting point.

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post #993 of 1075 Old 11-29-13, 03:21 AM
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Re: The Official $2,500 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

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shinksma wrote: View Post
...that is the one element that helps tie a 2-ch set-up into a 5.1 / 7.1 envelope for HT or multi-channel music set-up. If I could get a better feel for how well a particular brand or model of center channel can integrate with the L+R...
Here is one overly-simplistic way of looking at it:
  • C handles dialogue well
  • C has same (or close) tonality to L/R (except might not go as deep)
Which means L/R also handle dialogue well. So this becomes the main question. We could consider including a well-selected track or medley of music+dialogue from movies and briefly evaluate how well the dialogue stands out.

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I suppose the best way to solve my concerns is get identical LCRs (and maybe surrounds too)...
Yes.

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...I'm not sure whether I'd want MTMs (vertically) for L+R...
I can not think why not. A design with good M-T integration, always a priority to minimize lobing, means you can have just-as-good M-T-M integration. The tweeter is in the center of the midrange image center, which can support terrific imaging.

However, the main emphasis has been music, and - like the others - I hesitate to mess with that basic set of assumptions. It would mean more variables, and potentially - probably - more complexity and time burden.
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post #994 of 1075 Old 11-29-13, 03:42 AM
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Re: The Official $2,500 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

I suggest that for future evaluations, the "closer to the wall" setup involve a set "standard" location to minimize time burden - allowing only toe-in variation for quick optimization of soundstage/imaging.
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post #995 of 1075 Old 11-29-13, 07:24 AM
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Re: The Official $2,500 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

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AudiocRaver wrote: View Post
I can not think why not. A design with good M-T integration, always a priority to minimize lobing, means you can have just-as-good M-T-M integration. The tweeter is in the center of the midrange image center, which can support terrific imaging.

However, the main emphasis has been music, and - like the others - I hesitate to mess with that basic set of assumptions. It would mean more variables, and potentially - probably - more complexity and time burden.
I agree with Wayne - it really felt like we had a full weekend with our current set of criteria. If we add more, Wayne might not get the one hour of sleep he gets now...

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AudiocRaver wrote: View Post
I suggest that for future evaluations, the "closer to the wall" setup involve a set "standard" location to minimize time burden - allowing only toe-in variation for quick optimization of soundstage/imaging.
Agreed - for testing a close-to-the-wall configuration, most people who have to do that have limitations foe toe- in as well...
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post #996 of 1075 Old 11-29-13, 09:03 AM
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Re: The Official $2,500 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

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PEB wrote: View Post
What gives you hesitation about MTM for L/R? What other design formats would you consider?
Quote:
lcaillo wrote: View Post
I don't really understand your question nor who it is directed to. Can you elaborate?
Sorry guys, this question was aimed at one of my prior posts, where I indicated a minor reluctance (?) to using MTM for L+R as a possible solution to getting identical LCRs. PEBs question back to me looks out of context due to some other posts in between and a new page (assuming everyone sees the thread the same as me...)

AudiocRaver addressed some of my concern head-on:

Quote:
AudiocRaver wrote: View Post
Here is one overly-simplistic way of looking at it:
  • C handles dialogue well
  • C has same (or close) tonality to L/R (except might not go as deep)
Which means L/R also handle dialogue well. So this becomes the main question. We could consider including a well-selected track or medley of music+dialogue from movies and briefly evaluate how well the dialogue stands out.


I can not think why not. A design with good M-T integration, always a priority to minimize lobing, means you can have just-as-good M-T-M integration. The tweeter is in the center of the midrange image center, which can support terrific imaging.

However, the main emphasis has been music, and - like the others - I hesitate to mess with that basic set of assumptions. It would mean more variables, and potentially - probably - more complexity and time burden.
My main concern with MTMs for L+R is minimization of lobing between the two Mids, which while being an important part of center channel design can be completely eliminated by using just MT for the L+R. I realize I'm being overly paranoid to this issue in all likelihood.

Anyway, I do not wish to take this thread any further offtopic, but thanks for the push to consider MTMs for mains. Perhaps I will browse around the forum for analyses of MTM configurations for L+R purposes, and factors to consider in that application.

shinksma
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post #997 of 1075 Old 11-29-13, 12:52 PM
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Re: The Official $2,500 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

I really have found that a good speaker is a good speaker. There's not some dichotomy between music and movies (though I suppose one could make a good dialog-only speaker that was poor otherwise).

Besides: Who wants to be watching "Rock of Ages" apologizing for the horrible sound because "well, it was chosen for dialog"?

The *only* reason that the center should, IMO, be different from the L/R is because of limitations of the space in which it is placed. If you have your screen level with your ear, and it's not acoustically transparent, then you are going to need to sub-optimally place a center-channel in a spot that may not accommodate a speaker like you are using for L/R.

Personally, under that circumstance, I tend to become a fan of a phantom center. Bluntly: if you are setting up a large enough media space that the need for a center is strong; then you are in a position to start using AT screens and the like; and if not, a phantom tends to work very well.

So I'm just fine with the choice to evaluate 2-channel.
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post #998 of 1075 Old 11-29-13, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
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I really have found that a good speaker is a good speaker. There's not some dichotomy between music and movies (though I suppose one could make a good dialog-only speaker that was poor otherwise).

Besides: Who wants to be watching "Rock of Ages" apologizing for the horrible sound because "well, it was chosen for dialog"?

The *only* reason that the center should, IMO, be different from the L/R is because of limitations of the space in which it is placed. If you have your screen level with your ear, and it's not acoustically transparent, then you are going to need to sub-optimally place a center-channel in a spot that may not accommodate a speaker like you are using for L/R.

Personally, under that circumstance, I tend to become a fan of a phantom center. Bluntly: if you are setting up a large enough media space that the need for a center is strong; then you are in a position to start using AT screens and the like; and if not, a phantom tends to work very well.

So I'm just fine with the choice to evaluate 2-channel.
Mostly agreed on the idea that a good speaker for music should make a good speaker for movies too. The only exception would be those that are unable to handle lots of power and play loud enough. Now, sometimes the reverse is not true - sometimes a speaker will be voiced to be initially very impressive for theater but end up disappointing for music. Ultimately it will probably prove to be not as great for movies as initially thought for the discerning listener though.

Also agreed on the acoustically transparent screen. I haven't done that yet but I am sold on the idea and plan to do it.

Sorry getting off-topic a bit . . .
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post #999 of 1075 Old 11-29-13, 06:57 PM
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I'll delve only slightly more off topic.

IMO we're more forgiving of movie fidelity bedside we don't necessarily have a reference point to compare whatever are hearing to. I've never heard a car explode or a trex attach. But I have heard a symphony perform and a kick drum up close.
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post #1000 of 1075 Old 11-29-13, 11:23 PM
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To add to that, we also have another sense that's being heavily stimulated, because we are watching what's going on on the screen. Maybe I should try "watching" a movie with the screen off some time.
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