The Official $2,500 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event - Page 64 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #631 of 1075 Old 11-09-13, 07:22 AM
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Stereophile has a cut in its test CDS that demonstrates the depth of soundstage one can achieve with two speakers. The cut in their test cd 3 uses a number of different mic set ups . This clearly show the differences that the recording engineer can achieve. One can hear this very well with my ML speakers ( both the Vantage and the Montis) as long as they are properly placed far enough from the rear wall. BTW the Montis has a fairly generous sweet spot .
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post #632 of 1075 Old 11-09-13, 08:19 AM
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Re: The Official $2,500 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

Oh my, I was unaware of Sonnie's death-ray stare. Thanks for the warning. If it can reach you in Nebraska, I'm definitely in range. I'll mind my Ps and Qs; that's for sure.

At the risk of inciting him to look my way (in that deadly way) , I feel the need to mention one more thing about dipoles and theater rooms. In my opinion, to a great extent, they have mutually exclusive demands. Sonnie built a beautiful and ideal home theater room . My original intent was the construction of a listening room - video was the idea of some friends of mine who were itching for a better place to meet for college football Saturdays. The front row of seats in my room is a whopping 23'3" off the front wall and my 92" screen drops approximately 4' forward of that wall. My 'home theater room' is far from ideal. Likewise, I have far less absorptive treatments in my room, although I do have a few in the center of the side walls and building code forced me to include a window in the front wall which is covered with acoustic foam and then a rug. I do have some diffusion on the front wall and a dozen bass traps (which reflect frequencies above their operating range). So, my treatments are not quite up to snuff for a proper theater, but are bordering on excessive for the dipoles.

The other issue is room dimension. Ideal placement of speakers is driven by many factors, so extrapolating from what works in one setup to what should in another is rather tricky. It took me about a year of fiddling to allow my panels to grow roots - a game of inches. I cannot imagine how difficult the challenge you guys faced was with so many speakers and so little time. Regardless, I couldn't agree more with your assessment that the diploes need some space behind them. One of the benefits of a narrow (wish mine were a few feet wider, though) room is that Maggies produce better bass when they are closer to the side walls (with the tweeters in), but they suffer imaging problems when they are too far apart.

Let's face it; it's all about choosing compromises.

---

I'd expect the Montis and the Vantages to have a pretty generous sweet spot - Martin Logan's CLS transducer design helps a lot. The issue here is that ideal driver element size and frequency are inversely proportional.
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post #633 of 1075 Old 11-09-13, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
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Let's face it; it's all about choosing compromises.
I think you just summed up this whole hobby.

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post #634 of 1075 Old 11-09-13, 10:58 AM
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Re: The Official $2,500 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

Quote:
kevin360 wrote: View Post
Oh my, I was unaware of Sonnie's death-ray stare. Thanks for the warning. If it can reach you in Nebraska, I'm definitely in range. I'll mind my Ps and Qs; that's for sure.
You are WAY too close! Luckily, he is a pretty nice guy. I might even go so far as to call him a true gentleman, but we don't want to give him a big head. (He can be a bit of a rascal, too.)

Quote:
At the risk of inciting him to look my way (in that deadly way) , I feel the need to mention one more thing about dipoles and theater rooms. In my opinion, to a great extent, they have mutually exclusive demands. Sonnie built a beautiful and ideal home theater room . My original intent was the construction of a listening room - video was the idea of some friends of mine who were itching for a better place to meet for college football Saturdays. The front row of seats in my room is a whopping 23'3" off the front wall and my 92" screen drops approximately 4' forward of that wall. My 'home theater room' is far from ideal. Likewise, I have far less absorptive treatments in my room, although I do have a few in the center of the side walls and building code forced me to include a window in the front wall which is covered with acoustic foam and then a rug. I do have some diffusion on the front wall and a dozen bass traps (which reflect frequencies above their operating range). So, my treatments are not quite up to snuff for a proper theater, but are bordering on excessive for the dipoles.
Intriguing. You seem to be implying that with dipoles you WANT minimal absorptive treatment. I have thought of dipoles in terms of a design that helps one overcome some of the problems of having excessive room reflections, not as a design that BEGGS for more reflections. But I can see the logic, now that you put it that way.

Quote:
The other issue is room dimension. Ideal placement of speakers is driven by many factors, so extrapolating from what works in one setup to what should in another is rather tricky. It took me about a year of fiddling to allow my panels to grow roots - a game of inches. I cannot imagine how difficult the challenge you guys faced was with so many speakers and so little time.
It kinda makes the head spin. One person alone would break down in tears. Luckily, there are complementary experience bases at work that manage to produce the right ideas at needed times. Then there is Sonnie cracking the whip when we slow down. {[(And the treat of that death stare.)]}

Quote:
Regardless, I couldn't agree more with your assessment that the diploes need some space behind them. One of the benefits of a narrow (wish mine were a few feet wider, though) room is that Maggies produce better bass when they are closer to the side walls (with the tweeters in)
A combination we will have to try some time.

Quote:
but they suffer imaging problems when they are too far apart.
Precisely what we have experienced. With spacing the soundstage gets bigger... and bigger... and then the center imaging just falls apart.

Quote:
Let's face it; it's all about choosing compromises.
Boy, howdy, you can say that again.

Quote:
I'd expect the Montis and the Vantages to have a pretty generous sweet spot - Martin Logan's CLS transducer design helps a lot. The issue here is that ideal driver element size and frequency are inversely proportional.
Those compromises again.

Thanks for the detailed feedback, always appreciated. Good "future reference" material for anyone who works or plays with speaker setup, especially dipoles.
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post #635 of 1075 Old 11-09-13, 11:08 AM
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Re: The Official $2,500 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

Wayne wrote:

Quote:
A? Or was it S? Or maybe M?
If I remember right it was Axiom, Sony, & Merridian. Yeah, that's it....boy did those Axiom A5's sound sweet!

OK, OK, I'll let somebody else answer....!
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post #636 of 1075 Old 11-09-13, 11:13 AM
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My recollection is that the Arx, ML and Tekton speakers were the imaging/soundstage champs last round. Do I get a prize?! Brownie points? An extra slip-up before drawing the Sonnie stare!?
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post #637 of 1075 Old 11-09-13, 11:14 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The Official $2,500 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

Quote:
jmschnur wrote: View Post
Stereophile has a cut in its test CDS that demonstrates the depth of soundstage one can achieve with two speakers. The cut in their test cd 3 uses a number of different mic set ups . This clearly show the differences that the recording engineer can achieve. One can hear this very well with my ML speakers ( both the Vantage and the Montis) as long as they are properly placed far enough from the rear wall. BTW the Montis has a fairly generous sweet spot .
Well... I have their original Test CD, Test CD 2 and Poem. I guess I need to pick up the Test CD 3 just so I can say I have it... and check out the depth test track.

Coincidentally... I have the Montis on order. And a Stage X ... and full review forthcoming for two-channel and home theater (with the Motion 12's as surrounds).


Quote:
kevin360 wrote: View Post
Let's face it; it's all about choosing compromises.
This is why we hammer home the point that it is imperative for you to try speakers in your own environment... and for two-channel listening to be able to experiment with placement. It just makes zero sense to me that anyone would spend a LOT of money on speakers and then restrain them where you cannot get the most out of them.

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post #638 of 1075 Old 11-09-13, 12:00 PM
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Try test cd 2 cut 10 "mapping the sound stage". #3 has more mic examples. Your new system sounds great. I will be curious about the motions as surrounds. We should exchange notes on the Montis and X after you begin testing . I got the X on an "exchange" after my Stage power supply started acting up.
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post #639 of 1075 Old 11-09-13, 12:06 PM
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Re: The Official $2,500 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

Quote:
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Coincidentally... I have the Montis on order. And a Stage X
Umm, luckily I am too far from you for the "Stare" so I can easily ummm...suggest you order two of the Stage X speakers and send one up here, I would not object.

Oh a question if I might, I see we are all recommending albums to listen to, is there an actual thread for recommendations ? I have a few that test the limits of my system and I am sure can do the same for some others.

First: California Project - Papa Do Run Run, Oh my this disc has the rare ability to fill the front end of the room like few others. It has slam that could hurt your chest, sound-stage for days, excellent instrument placement and songs that will never go bad. Oh and be careful with the subs volume, there could be issues. The sound, for me at least is smooth with vocals rendered very well indeed. On cut 7, you may just be able to detect the 16Hz note there amongst those voices. Whew, well done. Lastly, the LP sounds better than the CD but the CD is not far behind.

Second: Well we shall wait to see if there is a better place for these.

Good Listening

Jack

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post #640 of 1075 Old 11-09-13, 12:32 PM
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Re: The Official $2,500 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

Quote:
bkeeler10 wrote: View Post
My recollection is that the Arx, ML and Tekton speakers were the imaging/soundstage champs last round. Do I get a prize?! Brownie points? An extra slip-up before drawing the Sonnie stare!?
Very impressive, you nailed it! For imaging & soundstage the Arx and ML were neck and neck and, to my ears anyway, the Tekton's were even a notch better. All three had im/ss characteristics to drool for. And we did.

Right on, you win the prize... The adulation of your HTS mates, plus a get-out-of-death-stare free card, redeemable on the third full moon of any given month, if you know the secret word, which was posted back in May somewhere in one of the forums about audio or video or home theater, something like that. Missed it? Tough break! Maybe next time!

Seriously, good memory. There is so much of interest to keep up on in these threads that it all becomes a blur after awhile. Nice to know folks are paying attention and benefiting from parts of it.
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