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post #711 of 1075 Old 11-13-13, 05:57 PM
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Glad it made more sense... I was about confused on what I was trying to say. I may have been trying to make it more complicated that it should be. You might just try them farther out and experiment with the toe-in. You should get more depth. Once you get them pulled out, maybe you could try moving yourself in closer just as a test, but try to keep your head at the same listening level. Wayne does this really well... looks like a rooster struttin' around. .
lol the visual of Wayne strutting like a rooster is classic! I have a tendency to confuse myself with what people say so glad we got it figured out though. I will definitely place the speakers farther out to see how that works. I think I have the toe in set good. But it'll change depending on where the speakers get moved to next
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post #712 of 1075 Old 11-13-13, 06:15 PM
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Ok thank you for the reply. And again keep up your great work.
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post #713 of 1075 Old 11-13-13, 09:49 PM
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Re: The Official $2,500 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

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Sonnie wrote:
All measurements are to the center of the speaker baffle... usually tweeter or midrange.
That seems much more reasonable now - I was thinking you guys were going a bit bonkers Mine are at 42", and I could see about another foot improving the sound if it were a dedicated 2 channel setup.


Question - I realize only two speakers have been posted, but why does there seem to be such a dramatic top end rolloff on these as compared to the $1k round? Coincidence based on the speakers or measuring equipment, or were you guys finding the best soundstage/imaging was achieved without the tweeter toed in to be aimed right at the central seating position? Both of these are showing around a 20db drop from 4khz to 20khz.
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post #714 of 1075 Old 11-13-13, 09:57 PM
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Wow 72 pages and counting. That's awesome!!
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post #715 of 1075 Old 11-13-13, 10:14 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The Official $2,500 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

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SteveCallas wrote: View Post
Question - I realize only two speakers have been posted, but why does there seem to be such a dramatic top end rolloff on these as compared to the $1k round? Coincidence based on the speakers or measuring equipment, or were you guys finding the best soundstage/imaging was achieved without the tweeter toed in to be aimed right at the central seating position? Both of these are showing around a 20db drop from 4khz to 20khz.
Same identical measuring equipment.

I did not make any particular notes on the steep rolloff... my hearing is not that good above 10kHz anyway, so I doubt I would notice it... especially on out there at 16-18kHz.

I am thinking the angle of the EP's along with keeping them slightly off-axis to keep them from being too bright was the cause of their drop off. I suspect all the others were merely where they needed to be for the best imaging and soundstage.

Wayne can probably address this better than I can.

The other three are not similar, which you will see when posted. The SVS are fairly flat from 2kHz to 20kHz with no drop off at all. The Maggies have a small dip from 12kHz to 18kHz, but then jump back up and are otherwise flat from 2kHz to 20kHz. The Paradigms drop off at 13kHz about 10dB to 20kHz.

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post #716 of 1075 Old 11-14-13, 12:15 AM
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Re: The Official $2,500 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

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roger1014 wrote: View Post
Too bad you didn't get to review the Martin Logan ESLs! Was interested in your evals on these speakers. Right now I have the ML Preface and now I got the bug to upgrade!!!
A fresh and well-matched pair of Martin Logan ESL's is supposed to be coming to my place in about a week. I have two rooms to evaluate them in, a 12 x 20 living room area with carpeting and a high ceiling and a full wall of books on shelves occupying most of one of the long walls (no kidding, floor to ceiling) and a kinda-large-kinda-chopped-up finished basement area with carpeting and a low dropped acoustical tile ceiling. Neither has any special treatment, but the RT60 times on both are quite low and I can get good sound in both of them with fair placement and seating flexibility. Neither room is near as nice as Sonnie's, but neither presents any significant limitations, either. Weather permitting, they will have a trip to the back yard for detailed measurements. Of course they will be tested for frequency response, distortion, and tight matching as soon as they are out of their cartons. They will be driven by a Crown Xs-500 power amp, rated at 400/500/750 W/channel into 8/4/2 Ohms.

There will be a full review on the ESL's, covering the parameters of our "event" evaluations as well as can be done given the different rooms, and covering other placement options. It will be done as quickly possible once I have gotten to know them well. Once the review is posted I will need to hang on to them awhile to be sure I have not missed anything that needs to be followed up on. This critical and often-overlooked phase of the review could well take years, but I am committed to being as thorough as possible for HTS and our readers.

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bkeeler10 wrote: View Post
I have been surprised by the distance to the wall behind as well. In my room, 7 feet is nearly half way from the front wall to the back and would put the speakers 3 feet away from the plane of my listening position! The best I could reasonably do would probably be about 4 feet.
You might try a little closer to the LP than half-way between the LP and the wall. That has worked well for me in smaller rooms. It seems to allow for good sound field development all around the speakers without crowding the LP. I do a lot of near-field listening, so closeness to the LP is never an issue for me, but not everyone cares for near-field.

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I had also assumed previously that speakers that far from boundaries would not produce quite enough bass. It doesn't sound like they had a problem with that here, and RMAF experiences suggested otherwise as well. So there go a couple of preconceived notions! Of course the bass issue is somewhat room dependent.
Generally, bass is accentuated by closeness to walls and is flatter, closer to spec, away from the walls, although there are lots of other variables to complicate that generalization. Speakers with a rear port need at least a few feet so they do not get too boomy and muddy.

The Martin Logan ESL's have a bottom port. Intriguing, should allow for plenty of placement flexibility.

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Savjac wrote: View Post
Ask me what you need to know and maybe I can help, I dont think a review is proper as that will be done by the excellent staff here, but I can answer questions.
Having said that, with proper placement and driven with adequate electronics and in a not too large room, they are positively wonderful. No ands, ifs or buts. Not sure how they would fit in with many of the speakers in the test except the maggies which I have heard, but I cannot foresee anyone being disappointed, unless they are looking for bass that will stop your heart or head banging volume levels. IMO, they need a good sub for rock, large classical and movies, but alone they give you a broad spectrum of music that is good but not great on the bottom end and great on the upper mid range on where the stat takes over. They image tremendously although the sweet spot for more spot on imaging is more or less limited to one person, but less so that the maggies i think. Once you get them dialed in, and irrespective of what the Marin Logan website says, it takes a bit of experimentation, you can close your eyes and be transported to a place and time created by the music of your choice.

They do well for movies but may be a bit limited with ginormous soundtracks or if someone wants to listen constantly at 105db in a 30' x 30' room. To be sure of what I am saying I went ahead and put in the disk that made me a believer in ML speakers, albeit very expensive ones, and it is called U571.
Swoosh on to chapter 13 and turn it up to where the very very quiet parts occur wherein the sub crew is hiding from the depth charges, between explosions of course, is about 55-58db and let it run.
For me it was astonishing that these Logans did not blow up with the dept charges, considering the 8" woofers and a stat panel, but noooo they held on an made me move about in the chair as things were going nuts. Also, there is a scene when the camera sits outside the sub wherein the charges are going of in the far distance, the depth of image to the left side of the soundstage is stunning as the charges get closer and closer, each charge is well placed on the stage and gets louder and louder but follows the placement of the charges within inches. I was amazed at how hard those things hit us in a room, I cannot even imagine experiencing the charges for real under water in a tube.
Your input is well appreciated. And U571 is on order - sounds like a fun evaluation disk to have around and compare with your experience.

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Sonnie wrote: View Post
Try pulling them out, but keep them narrow to begin with. Play a relatively short section of something that has excellent imaging that you can point out. Then begin moving them outward (toward the side walls) about 6" to 12" each time until that image starts to fall apart or gets confusing. Then move them back in to the previous spot where the image was its best, but the speakers are as far apart as possible. Experiment with toe-in... and at the same time on each toe, move your head forward and back while sitting in the PLP, so that you can determine where the best sound is... particularly depth acuity. You may have to experiment with the speaker distance from your front wall. You can move them closer to the front wall until you start to lose that depth, that is typically where you know you have hit that magic spot. Some speakers we have found have a larger area to work with than others, so YMMV.

So your room is 14' deep and you sit about 10' back from the front wall. Try the 4' and see how it sounds... but you could also try 5' and 6', which would put you 5' and 4' distance to plane. The Arx are 8' out and 5' to plane of PLP, but we found that 12-18" back did not make a drastic difference... and would be difficult to differentiate between listening sessions.

In my room, I have been finding that the bass is perhaps a bit too strong when nearer the front wall and gets more refined and tighter as the speakers moved out from the wall.
Sonnie is a master at summarizing these things. I have been working on a somewhat different approach, not negating a word of Sonnie's process, just throwing out an alternative. It will be based on and include data summarized from our two evaluation events plus other successful speaker setups I experience, sort of a setup database to be added to and refined over time. It will be posted in the 2-channel area and referenced in this thread.

Quote:
Sonnie wrote: View Post
Glad it made more sense... I was about confused on what I was trying to say. I may have been trying to make it more complicated that it should be.

You might just try them farther out and experiment with the toe-in. You should get more depth. Once you get them pulled out, maybe you could try moving yourself in closer just as a test, but try to keep your head at the same listening level. Wayne does this really well... looks like a rooster struttin' around.
It is not pretty. It has not been, nor will it ever be, filmed or photographed.

Quote:
SteveCallas wrote: View Post
Question - I realize only two speakers have been posted, but why does there seem to be such a dramatic top end rolloff on these as compared to the $1k round? Coincidence based on the speakers or measuring equipment, or were you guys finding the best soundstage/imaging was achieved without the tweeter toed in to be aimed right at the central seating position? Both of these are showing around a 20db drop from 4khz to 20khz.
Quote:
Sonnie wrote: View Post
Same identical measuring equipment.

I did not make any particular notes on the steep rolloff... my hearing is not that good above 10kHz anyway, so I doubt I would notice it... especially on out there at 16-18kHz.

I am thinking the angle of the EP's along with keeping them slightly off-axis to keep them from being too bright was the cause of their drop off. I suspect all the others were merely where they needed to be for the best imaging and soundstage.

Wayne can probably address this better than I can.

The other three are not similar, which you will see when posted. The SVS are fairly flat from 2kHz to 20kHz with no drop off at all. The Maggies have a small dip from 12kHz to 18kHz, but then jump back up and are otherwise flat from 2kHz to 20kHz. The Paradigms drop off at 13kHz about 10dB to 20kHz.
Yeah, our nutty obsession with the deep soundstage led to some toe-in angles that might have sacrificed some high treble here and there. It was a little noticeable with the CS2P's, not at all with the DM 3/7's which were still within spec out to 10 khz. You will see that the other 3 models handled it better, hardly noticeable on the plots, and the SVS high end just went on forever. If we could hear a drop in the high end, we made adjustments. But that also ended up being one of the areas for potential MINOR compromise if needed.
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post #717 of 1075 Old 11-14-13, 12:32 AM
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It is not pretty. It has not been, nor will it ever be, filmed or photographed.
Chicken!

Sorry couldn't resist a poultry pun.

Anyway, I am sure you understand eggsactly what I am saying and wouldn't take offense, though I would of made some refference to a cock but didnt want to use any foul language.

Sorry. Getting back in the coop now. You guys are doing an amazing job and I am plucking all this info from your reviews.

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post #718 of 1075 Old 11-14-13, 12:48 AM
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Re: The Official $2,500 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

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bkeeler10 wrote: View Post
I have been surprised by the distance to the wall behind as well. In my room, 7 feet is nearly half way from the front wall to the back and would put the speakers 3 feet away from the plane of my listening position! The best I could reasonably do would probably be about 4 feet.
My previous response kinda missed the mark.

Of course real-world constraints limit where we can place our speakers. In compiling the placement data from our listening events, it appears that the distance ratio is the thing to shoot for rather than the absolute distance from the wall. Meaning the ratio of LP-from-the-wall over speaker-from-the-wall, the average ideal from our experience being about 1.8:1. So for your room, if I interpret correctly, the LP is about 10 ft from front wall, and ideal speaker location might be (if our logic holds true) about 5-1/2 feet out from the wall. Your limitation at 4 feet might give good results with wide enough spacing.
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post #719 of 1075 Old 11-14-13, 12:51 AM
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Re: The Official $2,500 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

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K1LL3M wrote: View Post
Chicken!

Sorry couldn't resist a poultry pun.

Anyway, I am sure you understand eggsactly what I am saying and wouldn't take offense, though I would of made some refference to a cock but didnt want to use any foul language.

Sorry. Getting back in the coop now. You guys are doing an amazing job and I am plucking all this info from your reviews.

Zowie, my pun-o-meter just exploded.
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post #720 of 1075 Old 11-14-13, 01:04 AM
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Re: The Official $2,500 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

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AudiocRaver wrote:
Yeah, our nutty obsession with the deep soundstage led to some toe-in angles that might have sacrificed some high treble here and there. It was a little noticeable with the CS2P's, not at all with the DM 3/7's which were still within spec out to 10 khz. You will see that the other 3 models handled it better, hardly noticeable on the plots, and the SVS high end just went on forever. If we could hear a drop in the high end, we made adjustments. But that also ended up being one of the areas for potential MINOR compromise if needed.
Quote:
Sonnie wrote:
The other three are not similar, which you will see when posted. The SVS are fairly flat from 2kHz to 20kHz with no drop off at all. The Maggies have a small dip from 12kHz to 18kHz, but then jump back up and are otherwise flat from 2kHz to 20kHz. The Paradigms drop off at 13kHz about 10dB to 20kHz.
Did you guys notice these differences regarding top end detail and clarity in your listening - not the small dips or peaks, but something like the SVS being flat whereas the Dyns and Emeralds just completely roll off? Seems strange because the reviews I've read of the SVS tend to describe them as more laid back, warm even. The Dyns and Emeralds would be well beyond laid back....more like vegetative.
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