The Official $2,500 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event - Page 81 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #801 of 1075 Old 11-16-13, 12:49 PM
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I'm waiting with bated breath for you ML review. As I said I'm a fan boy, being from Lawrence KS, and hope the home team blows you away.

It's funny that Klipsch didn't want to take part in your evaluation. Their sweet highs and dynamic mid bass have always drawn in customers in my store's studio room. Personally the tractrix horns fatigue my ears quickly, that may be why I appreciate esl and ribbon speakers so much.

Klipsch like ML focus sound better then many speakers in less optimized rooms. This helps them image better as the highs have better chance to reach your rears before room reflections. Not that treatments don't still help (they do).

This may also be the reason that the Maggies didn't sound as crisp. The di-pole ribbons may have needed different treatment locations due to they're non-dispersal nature.
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post #802 of 1075 Old 11-16-13, 01:10 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The Official $2,500 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

The Paradigm Studio 60 review has been posted here.


Quote:
AudiocRaver wrote: View Post
We need to take a little care with all our praise. Next thing we know, Jon will change the connectors or something insignificant but visible, call it a redesign, and start charging $2k for them.
Put a nicer finish on them to somewhat make up for them missing the lowest octave in bass and I think he could ask $1,500-2,000 for them and get it.

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post #803 of 1075 Old 11-16-13, 02:37 PM
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Re: The Official $2,500 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

4 posted, 1 to go! Great job on the reviews.
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post #804 of 1075 Old 11-16-13, 02:42 PM
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Re: The Official $2,500 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

Quote:
AudiocRaver wrote:
I might have misinterpreted this comment when I first read it. Upon re-reading it, it sounds like you were simply explaining how important the highest octave of frequencies is in our listening to recorded music. If so, apologies for my response, which was off the mark.

Assuming that is what you meant, I can only agree, and the little filtering experiment, along with other experience, only confirms that what you say is true. It may not be so readily apparent in everyday life because so much of what we hear has little occurring in the frequency range above 10 kHz. But some sounds can contain frequencies way beyond 20 kHz, and with those our brain is noticing the detail you are referring to. With music it is more constant by its nature and a bigger factor, so when it is attenuated due to a rolloff it can be more noticeable.
No apology necessary, I didn't catch anything in your posts that was off the mark. But yes, I was referring to your 15khz filter experiment, not the speaker testing at Sonnie's. Music can still sound good with a high frequency rolloff, it just doesn't sound as real.

Quote:
Jon Lane wrote:
Owing to the affordability of some of our products I hate to admit it in public, but the truth is if you're really going for sound your speaker budget shouldn't be two-thirds your total expenditure. It should be about a quarter. Ten thousand dollars of front end into even $200 in very well executed DIY stand monitors can sound spectacular...they just won't play loud or deep.
I would respectfully disagree. I've participated in multiple blind listening tests (threads probably still alive on AVS) with electronics, using everything from $150 receivers to expensive preamp, boutique stereo amps, and cheap pro amps with fans removed, and electronics just don't impart any character at all on the sound unless they are faulty, purposefully designed to impart a certain sound (not too many do this anymore), or clipping. Speakers on the other hand, whether $50 or $50,000, sound completely different from each other. Very rarely will any two speakers sound similar. Quick switching (level matched between switches) only highlights the differences further.
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post #805 of 1075 Old 11-16-13, 02:52 PM
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I've been playing with speaker placement today. I can't get then more than 6' from the front wall because of a couch on one side. The first disc I used wasn't much good, but then I used Brothers in Arms. The thing I've noticed the most is depth. Strangely, the plane of sound is at about the front wall audibly, but there is more information heard between the plane of the speakers and the wall now. The sound with the speakers 2-2 1/2' from the wall still seemed to come from the front wall, but moving the speakers out has increased the range of depth, if that makes sense. Track 4 is especially good for this. The width isn't too great, though, it often sounds like I'm 'looking' into a funnel, so to speak. There are some instruments that break that trend, though. The drums on track 6, Ride Across the River, seem to be the width of the room, and the bass guitar makes everything in the room vibrate, including me! Bass on the whole is more defined. There are crickets in the recording that are erie!
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post #806 of 1075 Old 11-16-13, 03:36 PM
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Interesting about the Paradigms. I heard a pair of those a year or so ago, and wasn't impressed. They weren't bad, don't get me wrong, just didn't do anything for me. Could have been the setup, though. My 25 year old Infinitys keep showing me new life every time I put more effort into placement, like following your advise today. Highs are still not my favorite. They get a bit harsh at high volumes. My amp upgrade tamed a lot of that, but it's still there somewhat. L/R imaging could be better. The bass will be hard to improve on though.

I'm really enjoying the comments/advice/ideas this thread is generating!!
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post #807 of 1075 Old 11-16-13, 03:47 PM
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Re: The Official $2,500 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

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This is true. That comparison broke the fundamental rules (and offers to assist before the fact went unanswered. The user eventually emailed after the event and expressed some doubts, but that too dead-ended.)

What's gratifying about the HTS events is that the basics are included.

-One speaker at a time. Please.

-Optimize each speaker in the room. This is so important as to go almost without saying. (I love that you're using the Cardas method when you can, Sonnie.)

-Only good quality amplification and sources. Cheap low current receivers sound like cheap low current receivers, which is a shame because inexpensive high current receivers can be had. Owing to the affordability of some of our products I hate to admit it in public, but the truth is if you're really going for sound your speaker budget shouldn't be two-thirds your total expenditure. It should be about a quarter. Ten thousand dollars of front end into even $200 in very well executed DIY stand monitors can sound spectacular...they just won't play loud or deep.

-No weak links in the system

This may be a time to mention that in some circles, this not being one, myths endure. One is that frequency amplitude as a measurement is all you need to know. (Probably no worse harm to good sound above the HTIB level than this exists).

Another: electronics sound identical unless they're tubed at which point they're whimsically colored so unscientific listeners can artificially sweeten the sound. And another is that the room is nearly all important and first arrival from the speaker is not at all important. (The best sound I ever heard was in the single worst acoustical environment I've ever seen. It all worked because the system was out of this world, especially in the front end and amplification.)

While speakers have much more measurable distortion than amplifiers, for instance, great, dialed-in systems have the ability to somehow push the speakers nearly entirely out of perception. When a system really starts to work, the upstream components start to predominate and the speakers become just their tools. Sounds odd, doesn't it?

It's really enjoyable to be part of this forum. I can't count the number of times I've nodded reading comments in these threads. There's a fundamental difference between really getting into immersive sound on the one hand, and speculating about how things should sound or what they should do on the other. Effort yields rewards.

Bravo!
Jon,

Thanks for posting. Sure glad we got those A5's back in August.

It seems like a healthy dash of obsessive attention to detail is a necessary ingredient in doing speaker evaluation effectively. One nice thing about our team is the way we bring different hot-buttons and experiences that complement each other, and also the sensibilities to help each other keep those drives in perspective. I dare say no one of us could accomplish 1/10th of what we have together. It has been an amazing journey.

From your list, I would say that optimizing each speaker in the room has been the biggest key to our success, with all other speakers removed and variables minimized being an important part of that. Then quality amplification and sources would be next. The well-treated room is certainly a factor, not disagreeing with your point about relative importance of first arrival and "quality of ambient arrivals" - I believe you were implying that a balance is desired, no?

Thanks again for posting, always great to hear from you.
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post #808 of 1075 Old 11-16-13, 03:52 PM
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Re: The Official $2,500 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

As someone that moved from the Maggies to the Logans, I can say that I moved for a bit more oomph on the bottom end. Nothing against the Maggies, what they did in their range was to my ears quite good, however, there is only so much you can do with a planar that has X square inches to move X-Y millimeters. It is not until you get into the 3.7's and above that you can start to feel the bass and also feel comfortable you wont hear the Mylar buzz.

The Logan's dont go much deeper but they have a more solid and tactile bottom end, and for me a sweeter more extended midrange to top end. Good blend between the woofer and planar panel, but the woofer just cannot keep up all the time. The good news is, the pass from woof to panel is well hid.

Having said all that, my journey is not done. I truly want...no need to feel the power and the glory of a moving coil speaker. I have experimented with planar and am now kind of wanting to move on. I heard an older Klipsh KLF speaker and the feeling of those 10' woofers moving a giant amount of air brought me back to my roots so to speak. This is the direction I need to go, being able to produce sound pressure and ginormous dynamic swings while not only bringing the sound and power of live music to me, but bringing me to the power and glory of live music. Ahhh I remember it well.

Good Listening

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post #809 of 1075 Old 11-16-13, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Jon Lane wrote: View Post
-Only good quality amplification and sources. Cheap low current receivers sound like cheap low current receivers, which is a shame because inexpensive high current receivers can be had.
Jon (and anyone else who might have experience with this), can you comment on brands that, in your experience, could be trusted to deliver this elusive high-current receiver (in a multichannel AVR)? Most brands don't say much about their receivers' output into 4 ohms (and what they say about their performance in general is often suspect!) so it's hard to judge.

Is it fair to say that an amp that delivers 75% - 100% more power into 4 ohms than it does into 8 ohms is likely a high current design?
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post #810 of 1075 Old 11-16-13, 06:27 PM
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Re: The Official $2,500 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

Quote:
bkeeler10 wrote: View Post
Jon (and anyone else who might have experience with this), can you comment on brands that, in your experience, could be trusted to deliver this elusive high-current receiver (in a multichannel AVR)? Most brands don't say much about their receivers' output into 4 ohms (and what they say about their performance in general is often suspect!) so it's hard to judge.

Is it fair to say that an amp that delivers 75% - 100% more power into 4 ohms than it does into 8 ohms is likely a high current design?
"High Current" amplifiers are a perpetuated audiophile myth.

The reality is these are voltage amplifiers.. it's simple as that. Current flows as a result of the load.. It's more of a matter of can the amp maintain its composure under the given load and voltage being produced.

End of the day it's a voltage amplifier.. current amplifiers exist but not in this context.

Sure some amps perform better than others given complex or low impedance loads... but making claims that a given amp is a "high current" design doesn't do an industry full of snake oil any favors.
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