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post #131 of 267 Old 03-05-14, 11:44 PM
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Re: The Official $3,000 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

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AudiocRaver wrote: View Post
Excellent questions. I felt that the smooth high end and low distortion of the SongTower SC did a pretty good job of not accentuating sibilance. I would not say that they cut it or controlled it, just did not make it worse. Joe is our "sibilance authority," with Leonard a close second, I am sure they will have something to say.
Some songs are worse than others, no doubt, and we certainly don't want it accentuated. It's a great item to mention as it is an annoying issue to some of us.

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Earplugs. Even our beloved Zoo bar gets loud enough you need 'em. I catch a fair amount of live music in the Lincoln/Omaha area, and these are my choice. Yeah, they seem to make the music sound dull at first, but after a couple of songs of adjustment time for your ears, you will forget they are there. When the show is over - no ringing ears!
Unfortunately, my time at the Zoo was in the early to mid-80's. Matt "guitar" Murphy was one of my favorites, though Brave Combo (nuclear polka) was fun too. Played in the marching band so my ears got toasted on a regular basis when I was young and slightly more stupid than I am now. I do wear earplugs to concerts that get loud (Garbage in the Pearl at the Palm was 103 dB), but these Etymotic earplugs are worthy of consideration. I may get some to try for my next 'loud' show. I didn't need any when listening to the St. Petersburg Philharmonic (and a 305 yr old Stradivarius ) a the Smith Center for the Performing Arts Saturday night.

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ALMFamily wrote: View Post
I decided to include some thoughts on sibilance as there were a couple instances where it really stood out to a point where I considered leaving the room. Since some people are more sensitive to it than others, I thought it would be good to mention it.
I agree it can be annoying as which is why I got on my soapbox about engineers who need to better understand their trade (or use more revealing speakers in the studio). Good stuff!

Again, awesome work so far.

Nice to see a vendor drop in for a visit. Mr. Salk, thanks for your input. I've unfortunately never had the pleasure of listening to or seeing your speakers in person. Without reviews like these, I'd never even have a) known about your speakers and b) considered them (speakers are my next big upgrade). Thanks for participating.

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post #132 of 267 Old 03-06-14, 05:30 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The Official $3,000 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

The Phase Technology PC-9.5 review has been posted. Grab THIS LINK to jump there directly.
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post #133 of 267 Old 03-06-14, 05:59 AM
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Re: The Official $3,000 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

Excellent review of the Phase Tech speakers!!!! Great job!
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post #134 of 267 Old 03-06-14, 06:22 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The Official $3,000 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

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Erin H wrote: View Post
If you guys had some quasi-anechoic on/off-axis data for the speakers tested, that would resolve the concern over whether the speaker is adding or removing something from the music. In that sense, the speaker performed as it should have (ie; it contributed in some way to the response by removing or adding something to what should be a flat anechoic respons).

You may even be able to extract this information to some degree by evaluating the IR and gating the response. I'd imagine the best you could achieve is a reflection free response above 400hz or so, but that would at least tell you what's occurring in the speaker itself (not caused by the reflections that aren't able to easily be identified without in depth analysis).

Just some positive "criticism" for future testing.
We are already discussing ways to potentially up our game with additional measurements. It is no easy task determining what will get us more bang from our precious buck of available time.

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What? No classical music among the test tracks? For me this invalidates are subjective results.
The Also Sprach Zarathustra / Star Trek sequence is orchestral. We have many tracks with simple recordings of natural instruments. There is no way to cover every corner of every genre. We are confident that our tracks provide broad coverage of genres, instruments, and recording techniques. Yet there is no way to satisfy everyone. There will always be those who choose to negate our results for some reason rather than see value in what we have accomplished. So be it.

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That brings up some questions, in what condition is the collective hearing of the testers?
Can they hear to 15,000Hz?
Are both ears of each tester equally sensitive?
Do the testers have any tinnitus?
Do they wear a baseball cap backwards? LOL

As my own hearing has declined in quality and perception over time, I can't judge speaker quality accurately enough to be a judge anymore. I'm limited to 8000Hz or less, left ear less sensitive than my right.
Some years ago I thought my own DIY speakers had a sibilance problem. No one else could hear it though. It turned out my tinnitus was reacting to certain frequencies at higher listening volume producing a sibilant type inner ear noise. I had to have an auditory ENT specialist identify my problem. Welcome to old age.
Can't speak for the others. My ears are both good to 14,000 Hz. I have measured them both and know their characteristics. And I protect them carefully while enjoying what they can do. And I do not wear hats.
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post #135 of 267 Old 03-06-14, 06:44 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The Official $3,000 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

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jsalk wrote: View Post
First off, thanks to Sonnie for putting this project together and to Wayne, Leonard and Joe for their time and dedication in reviewing the various models. We at Salk Sound were honored to have been able to participate and provide our Supercharged SongTowers for this evaluation.

...............

Again, thanks for taking the time to evaluate our Supercharged SongTowers. Great job and much appreciated!

- Jim
Jim, thank you so much for allowing us to evaluate the SongTower SC. We realize it can be a little intimidating for a speaker designer/manufacturer to send his children off to a strange land to be "measured up" for publication to the masses. The pleasure was ours.

Thank you for dropping by to comment. We appreciate your insights.
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post #136 of 267 Old 03-06-14, 07:13 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The Official $3,000 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

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Erin H wrote: View Post
What you guys have presented, I can only assume by the lack of mention and by the lack of multiple data indicating otherwise in your REW screenshots, is a single-point response at the seated position.
That is correct.

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This really tells us nothing more than what you hear if you head is in a vice.
Which is precisely the way we listen.

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It doesn't capture the culmination of sound over a listening area which is essentially now the standard in measurement technique for evaluating a speaker in a given room (ie; John Atkinson of Stereophile, Earl Geddes, Linkwitz, et al). A good spatial average will provide more information as to the power response of a speaker which also is a means of getting to the root of what the speaker is doing. The reason why a single point axis measurement doesn't work is pretty simple: loudspeakers radiate different depending on their design. Some artifacts may be heard differently than others depending on the placement of your head/mic (even as much as one inch can alter what you hear and/or measure above 6khz thanks to combing).
We are well aware of what is possible and preferable given oodles of resource and time.

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IF you have that data,
We do not. We may have more next time.

Quote:
I'm just relaying the info so you guys can consider doing this next time. I believe I mentioned/asked for this information before you guys kicked off the testing. Just so you don't think I'm making this stuff up, here's a good link that summarizes most testing methods and explains the importance if you'd like some better info:
http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...asurements-101
We are well aware of what is possible and preferable given oodles of resource and time.

Thanks for the input.
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post #137 of 267 Old 03-06-14, 07:41 AM
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You don't need "oodles" of time. It takes less than 30 seconds to perform a simple head area sweep. I'm not sure what is giving you guys the impression that you need some insane amount of time.

However, the semi-anechoic on/off axis measurements would take more time. I won't get in to it here but the short story is it would take at least 20 minutes per speaker and the design would dictate that. That said, your efforts would be much more improved doing this and providing a spatial average. Those two sets of data is all anyone needs to make a strong and more objective correlation between what you fellas are reporting in your subjective analysis as it tells you what the speaker is doing more than a single point measurement. If you haven't read the link I provided previously, please do. It's an excellent summation of the pros and cons of various speaker measurements.

I know you're trying to cram a lot already in to a relatively short weekend. Next time, I'd be more than happy to help if I'm available as I'm within a few hours' drive of Sonnie. I'm genuine with that offer. Sonnie and I have discussed me possibly joining you guys in the future. I'd be more than happy to pick up the measurements end if it helps lighten your load and means getting even better data on the speakers tested.

If you'd like to understand my background, here's my test site. I'm not some kid spouting off buzzwords to look cool. I do have a legitimate interest in bettering our communities' understanding of speaker performance.
http://medleysmusings.com

Regarding OT: I really don't want to keep going over this here just as you guys don't. It is better suited elsewhere. I definitely don't want to take away from the subject of this thread but my points are not invalid and I really think we can work together on this to make these shoot-outs you're doing have even more weight for the objective crowd. However, I'm responding to you in this thread because the response to me was written here. Porting all of this convo to a new thread isn't something I can easily do, but I'd imagine a mod should be able to (based on my experience as a mod on other forums). If you guys want to carry this over to another thread feel free to do so and we can pick up there. I imagine Sonnie would be more than willing to do so if you guys don't have those mod privileges. Just let me know if you do. Or , shoot me a PM and we can chat that way.

Edit: I am NOT trying to be 'that' guy who pops his head in and tells you how you're doing something wrong. Trust me, I deal with that stuff all the time with my measurements, so I know how it feels. I am trying to help, though, with constructive feedback and we can carry on discussion on how to perform said measurements or possibly how to let me help you guys and maybe perform the measurements, with Sonnie's permission, in future tests. I shot Sonnie a message asking if he can help split this to another thread so we don't keep mucking this one up.

- Erin
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post #138 of 267 Old 03-06-14, 08:19 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The Official $3,000 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

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Erin H wrote: View Post
You don't need "oodles" of time. It takes less than 30 seconds to perform a simple head area sweep. I'm not sure what is giving you guys the impression that you need some insane amount of time.
You have taken my statement out of context. I am well aware of the time it takes to make several measurements around the head area.

Quote:
However, the semi-anechoic on/off axis measurements would take more time. I won't get in to it here but the short story is it would take at least 20 minutes per speaker and the design would dictate that. That said, your efforts would be much more improved doing this and providing a spatial average. Those two sets of data is all anyone needs to make a strong and more objective correlation between what you fellas are reporting in your subjective analysis as it tells you what the speaker is doing more than a single point measurement. If you haven't read the link I provided previously, please do. It's an excellent summation of the pros and cons of various speaker measurements.

I know you're trying to cram a lot already in to a relatively short weekend. Next time, I'd be more than happy to help if I'm available as I'm within a few hours' drive of Sonnie. I'm genuine with that offer. Sonnie and I have discussed me possibly joining you guys in the future. I'd be more than happy to pick up the measurements end if it helps lighten your load and means getting even better data on the speakers tested.

If you'd like to understand my background, here's my test site. I'm not some kid spouting off buzzwords to look cool. I do have a legitimate interest in bettering our communities' understanding of speaker performance.
http://medleysmusings.com

Regarding OT: If you guys want to carry this over to another thread feel free to do so and we can pick up there. I imagine Sonnie would be more than willing to do so if you guys don't have those mod privileges. I'm responding to you in this thread because the response was written here and me trying to port all of this convo isn't something I can easily do. But a mod should be able to (based on my experience as a mod on other forums). Just let me know if you do. Or , shoot me a PM and we can chat that way.

- Erin
I am aware that you are a very capable tester. So, we believe, are we. We are also painfully aware of the real-world extra time it takes to add a single seemingly simple step to our process, how that will shorten our already short nights of sleep, and how an additional person, however capable, may or may not be helpful in getting more done. Sincerely, there is no disrespect intended, and as I have already said, we are considering how best to expand our review coverage for future events. Your input IS appreciated.
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post #139 of 267 Old 03-06-14, 08:43 AM
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Re: The Official $3,000 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event

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You have taken my statement out of context. I am well aware of the time it takes to make several measurements around the head area.



I am aware that you are a very capable tester. So, we believe, are we. We are also painfully aware of the real-world extra time it takes to add a single seemingly simple step to our process, how that will shorten our already short nights of sleep, and how an additional person, however capable, may or may not be helpful in getting more done. Sincerely, there is no disrespect intended, and as I have already said, we are considering how best to expand our review coverage for future events. Your input IS appreciated.
In my defense, your reply seemed to imply you thought the measurements I mentioned would take "oodles" of time. I didn't intend to take them out of context; I suppose it was simply misinterpretation. That happens with text.

As I seem to have taken your words out of context, perhaps you have taken mine out of context as well. I didn't say you weren't capable testers. I simply pointed out data that is missing that would be useful to have and provide and offered to help where I can. I don't know your guys' process but I can certainly appreciate the fact that by now you likely have it down to a method that maximizes time. And I therefore understand an additional body may wreck that process. I'll just leave the offer on the table in case you guys decide it would be something useful. I'm not offering up my time as a means to best anyone. Just as a means to better maximize efforts IF it can.

With that said, I'll leave this aspect alone now unless you guys wish to discuss it further here or elsewhere.


Looking forward to more of the test results.
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post #140 of 267 Old 03-06-14, 10:15 AM
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Sooo! How 'bout those speakers! Good stuff.

We all find what we're looking for, whether we know it or not.
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