Audience's A3; new true full range loudspeaker.

**Mike Cason** · **08-02-09, 05:55 PM**

atledreier,

I just saw your new projector screen in your link. If you are using wide screen video format from your projector, can you buy a few inches from the bottom? Every bit helps to get the drivers up as close to ear level as possible.

Yes, definitely keep the drivers mounted vertically. A 2+2 may work very well for you, especially if you can get a little more room under the screen. That will buy you some room to raise it. You had some different options with your other display. With the 2+2 sealed cabinet, you can still have 113 db at 100 watts continuous power, and for a center speaker, that should work very well. I also saw all of your room treatment. Wow...

After seeing the treatment and the size of your room, my preference would be the straight 16 driver line array.

Something about the A3 drivers which is very nice is that you toe in the L & R speakers to a 45 degree angle towards each other and the listening area, keeping them just in front of any obstacles that may be between them, the sweet spot is no longer just the center chair, but is much wider.

I'll get some information to the engineers so they will have it in the morning to get their opinions as well. I've got to attend a property probate court hearing for my friend tomorrow, but should be back from Galveston about this same time tomorrow and I'll let you know what we have come up with for you when I return.

Thanks again,
Mike

**atledreier** · **08-03-09, 01:06 AM**

Awesome, thanks!

**Mike Cason** · **08-03-09, 11:18 AM**

atledreier,

I've already been in touch with the owner of Audience this morning and I was right on target with your setup using the 16 driver array to get that slam and soundstage you are looking for. Your Dali speakers have, according to the audio review in the link below, a fairly steady 88dB response across the entire frequency range. http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/1103dali/ I found this in another review as well.

The 16 driver A3 loudspeakers should be 96dB according to Audience. I'd drool with a pair of16 driver A3 loudspeakers after having my 4 driver units in the HT for demo. Read the review posted earlier by dyohn. His drivers have exceeded his expectations and thinks the posted numbers are a bit conservative.

If you have been to my website and seen the pics of my main setup, I've got my center speaker tilted at least 18 degrees and sounds great. My prior TV was the Mit-Diamond rear projection and I built an 18 degree stand for it to point it down to the listening area.

I'll be leaving for the Galveston trip asap but I'll be sure to check in when I return.

If you decide to build these speakers, I've got some information you will need to know about internal cabinet requirement, dampening, & etc.

Thanks,
Mike

**atledreier** · **08-03-09, 12:07 PM**

I'm a bit concerned about the power handling and spl capabilities of a 2 or even 4 driver center speaker, though. The sensitivity is not much of an issue, I will just add power if needed. I like to demo my system at reference, and I need to build a system capable of that in all channels without worries. So how much SPL can I realistically expect from a 4 driver center channel?

Also, as always there's the issue of cost. Could I get away with say a three 12 driver units and use an AT screen?

**Mike Cason** · **08-03-09, 06:49 PM**

atledreier,

Ahh, you listen to yours like I listen to mine...sometimes beyond reference levels!

I've been on the phone with the owner of Audience and the engineer for quite a while discussing your needs.

The four driver pair of speakers would get you 113 dB at 100 watts of power, which is probably not something you wanted to hear. Refer to the chart in the link.

You suggested using 3 speakers (LCR) with 12 drivers each which can be done, but your impedance may be around 6 ohms which is fine. Most amps can handle this. especially looking at the amps in your HT. Your center channel doesn't use near the power as your mains. It is mainly for vocals. My Rotel is rated at 4 ohms max and my center channel is 3.2 ohms and I have experienced no problems with two different Rotel amps.

If you are looking to place the center speaker behind the projection screen, a screen with the beaded cloth and very porous, I would suggest going the 8 driver line array center speaker. You would start to loose your highs at 10Khz which is fine for the center speaker because again, it is more for vocals. It should give you 121 dB at 200 watts and perhaps a bit more if you dial out some bass. With your treatment the line array may work out best for you behind the screen and your application. Having some of the sound being absorbed and blocked by the screen, the 8 driver may be a big bonus for you over the 4 driver. 12 drivers for the center speaker is overkill.

I believe you were talking about this or similar type of screen when you mentioned the "AT" screen, which is a new term to us. I did a bit of research on the audio grade projection screens and couldn't find the AT.

Basing your wants for reference level listening, a pair of 12 line arrays could work very well with a 300 watt capable speaker with an approximate level of 123dB to 124dB output per pair. That is a whole lot of output! When I get a concert DVD or BluRay up to 120 dB, it almost hurts. That's where I listen to Roy Orbison with the Black and White album! If you feel comfortable with your treatment and not concerned about baffle step, then the line array would work. A 6+6 would eliminate the baffle step completely, both with the same outputs. You could gain some more on the low end with the +, but let the sub do the work for that duty and your drivers should produce more dBs as well by dialing out some bass. I believe you have the SVS sub and the Sonotube RLP-15 with the pink panther lining.

I recognize your user name, but after so many years in the forums, I can't place you....

Let me know if I can be of further help.

Thanks,
Mike

**atledreier** · **08-04-09, 01:27 AM**

I have two RL-p15 LLT sonotubes for subs, in a fairly small room (19sq m).

By AT screen I just meant Acoustically Transparent.

I'll read up some more. I sat listening to music last night, which I haven't done in a while since it's summer, and I felt upgradeitis sneaking up on me..

I drive my speakers with the receiver right now (Denon AVR 4308). Whilst it's a capable amplifier, I can't shake the feeling that my speakers could need more power. I used to use the NAD M25 bi-amped on them. I might have to go back, or get som eproper power to them, an EP2500 or something similar.

**Mike Cason** · **08-04-09, 05:37 AM**

Quote:

atledreier wrote:

I have two RL-p15 LLT sonotubes for subs, in a fairly small room (19sq m).

By AT screen I just meant Acoustically Transparent.
I thought that was what you were referring to.

I'll read up some more. I sat listening to music last night, which I haven't done in a while since it's summer, and I felt upgradeitis sneaking up on me..

I had that feeling for years. That's why I have what I have now.

I drive my speakers with the receiver right now (Denon AVR 4308). Whilst it's a capable amplifier, I can't shake the feeling that my speakers could need more power. I used to use the NAD M25 bi-amped on them. I might have to go back, or get som eproper power to them, an EP2500 or something similar.

I highly recommend the Rotel RMB 1095 5 x 200 like I'm using. They have lots of power with plenty of headroom. I had the 100 watt before and it performed very well. I felt the need to upgrade that one too. These are incredible amps. Available at Audiogon for about $1,200 USD. I've got the latest flagship NAD T-785 receiver 7x120 but wanted more true power and punch. I don't know if I would use a pro amp for my mains; especially mains with this quality of drivers. They do work quite well for subwoofers with equalizers.

**Mike Cason** · **08-04-09, 06:11 AM**

Quote:

atledreier wrote:

I drive my speakers with the receiver right now (Denon AVR 4308). Whilst it's a capable amplifier, I can't shake the feeling that my speakers could need more power.

Your Denon may work very well with these speakers when they are finished because they are going to be so efficient. I would complete them first and let them break in, usually about 48 hours, and then look at upgrading the amp if needed. If you have to crank up the Denon to near max, then you will have a good chance of clipping. We sure don't want that.
Mike

**Mike P.** · **08-04-09, 06:20 AM**

Quote:

I don't know if I would use a pro amp for my mains; especially mains with this quality of drivers. They do work quite well for subwoofers with equalizers.

I'll second that. Pro amps aren't known for their quality sound in the upper ranges, they do well for subwoofer duty where it is a lot more "forgiving".

**atledreier** · **08-04-09, 06:47 AM**

Yeah, Like I said, I'll add power as needed.

I will try a few things first as it's a HUGE financial leap for me. I've been upgrading slowly over the last 15-20 years to be where I am today, and then going DIY I can't just sell the stuff and expect any return on the investment if it don't work out. I want to make sure I have exhausted all other options before I take the plunge. And then selling the Dali set I have won't be easy in today's market...

Maybe I should try building a cheaper array just to see if I can get near the capability I need and if I like the arrangement without having to ditch the Dalis... Or maybe trying a smaller array like you did, Mike.

**Mike Cason** · **08-06-09, 01:00 PM**

atledreier,

I don't know how I missed this last post! The notification never came through......

For reference level listening, I don't think four drivers aren't going to be enough. I think you would need a minimum of the 8 driver array for the mains and that you would be quite happy with them. As far as the center speaker, four should put you right on target. During my discussion with Mr. McDonald the subject came up about having the four drivers horizontally in a cabinet so you would have room to set it on your existing TV stand plus you wouldn't have the expense of buying the AT screen. You wouldn't lose that 10k and up on the center with the AT screen either.

Audience hasn't tried it that way yet.

I will also contact our design person who holds the patent on the XBL2 technology for you to get his take on this.

I agree with you on the Dalis. I've been building speakers for several years and I would be hesitant to get rid of something I know I liked before going to a whole new program. Plus, there is the time issue of building your new speakers. To build them right is going to take a bit of time so you would probably want your Dalis in place until you're finished. My whole system was almost sold and shipped to England, but I backed out at the last moment. Once you are done and want to sell them, Audiogon should work well for you.

Thanks Mike....

**atledreier** · **08-06-09, 01:11 PM**

I am a litte concerned with the center speaker to be honest. four of these tiny things just seems too small cone area. Maybe you could try the 4 driver array and see what it's like. And if I build a system now it's going to have to do reference with ease. I hate strained sound, I need effotlessness, and.. well, it's probably in my head, but 4 3" drivers just seem too small. Modern movies see alot of action in the center channel, and I'm hoping to cross them over at around 80Hz, that seems to be the sweetspot for my subs.

**Mike Cason** · **08-06-09, 01:17 PM**

I've been writing an email to our builder right now when your message popped up. I'll ask him about 3 8driver line arrays with the AT screen for his take on this. Yes, 8 would certainly be better.

I'll get back with you as soon as I hear from him. The email should be going out in a couple of minutes.

Oh, by the way, don't let those little cones fool you, they are awesome!

Thanks,
Mike

**atledreier** · **08-06-09, 01:27 PM**

I am aware that they are awesome, and I don't doupt their capabilities, but it's still physics. My 6,5" cones in my Dalis are awesome too..

There's a limit to how much noise a 3" driver can make with low distortion.

**Mike Cason** · **08-06-09, 03:43 PM**

atledreier,

I just heard back from the builder and patent holder of our speaker design. Horizontal is out of the equation. It will not work.

Your concern about the four drivers was a good one. Below is the reply we just received from him:

The center channel should have MORE capability than the left and right; of the total energy delivered to the L/C/R speakers, fully 50% of the energy goes to the center. It does most of the heavy lifting, and it’s usually the most compromised speaker!

I would definitely do at least an 8 driver array, and it should be high-passed at 80 Hz as well, if he really wants reference levels. Reference (THX Ultra) means 105 dB SPL at the seats, and that can be 115 dB SPL at the array (10 feet away). That’s making each driver push 97 dB (18 dB for the number of drivers), so each one would get 40W delivered. Below 80 Hz, they just will run out of steam.

Here are the specs on a single A3 driver:
MUSIC PROGRAM POWER HANDLING Pmusic 40 Watts
MAXIMUM PEAK POWER HANDLING Pmax 60 Watts

I'm running a 200 watt center channel speaker in my system and it does seem to get the most activity!

I hope this clears up some of your questions and concerns.

Mike

**atledreier** · **08-06-09, 05:11 PM**

Yes, thank you!

So really I want to go at least 8 each for the LCR. What's the practical SPL I can expect with around 300W to 8 drivers, in room?

**Mike Cason** · **08-06-09, 05:27 PM**

You should expect 121 db at 200w according to Audience's specs. In order to step up to 300 watts, your will need to look at least a 12 to 16 driver line array. I'm running 200 watts through a Rotel RMB 1095 and it will hurt your ears when you reach near the full headroom. My living room is about 20' x 24' with 9' ceilings. You have a much smaller room. Here is a link to their chart again:

http://www.audience-av.com/loudspeakers/specs.php

**Mike Cason** · **08-07-09, 07:37 PM**

SpeakerHobby.com is now offering a quantity price for 12 or more drivers at $1,800 or $150 each. I would like to see those who want to build a fine speaker cost affordable.

http://www.speakerhobby.com/audience_pricing.htm

Mike

**harleyhualer-sc02** · **09-02-09, 10:03 PM**

So why wouldn't the horizontal work?

**Mike Cason** · **09-03-09, 06:24 AM**

Quote:

harleyhualer-sc02 wrote:

So why wouldn't the horizontal work?

I set up one of my 4 driver cabinets in the horizontal position this past weekend to test that out. I was surprised how well it did sound. I've just sold a few dozen drivers to a customer in NY and he is going to build a 16 driver horizontal array, pointed up towards the listening level of his Berklines. We think it will work and has enough drivers fill the need. The driver array will be about 48" wide. It may be a while before he is through, but I'll certainly post his results.

**Mike Cason** · **11-12-09, 07:44 AM**

I noticed that our A3 driver has a QTS of .36 which is ideal for a passive radiator design. Because I am now selling the 5.25" Peerless Tymphany passive radiator, I suggested their use to our engineer at Audience and he ran a graph shown below along with his comments. He's very excited with the results. We are looking at using them with our Audience woofers.

Here is a graph showing what a Pr will do with 2 A3’s(in red and without the PR’s in gray).
This is a 5db boost from 75-100Hz! (Note- This is just a preliminary software test result.)

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