LMS-5400 buy-in

**SteveCallas** · **09-19-07, 12:09 AM**

Sure, they "sold out" of them, but that could mean they only made 50 - just don't know.

**Klip** · **09-19-07, 12:10 AM**

Quote:

Exocer wrote:

Breathtaking performance for the LMS-5400, I really wished I played it smart and saved for one of them the first time around and be done with it

Too bad they're not available anymore

Why not organize a group buy?

From TCSounds website:

"Most of our OEM manufacturing still occurs in the US. We generally cater to high end customers seeking nothing less than the absolute world’s best performance design, and execution criteria. TC Sounds gladly takes the challenge of designing and creating the finest audio solutions available for virtually any application.

...Prototypes can often be built and delivered within weeks with few changes. Minimum quantities start at generally no less than 25 units for smaller subwoofers and 10 units for large subwoofers."

**WillyD** · **09-19-07, 12:16 AM**

Quote:

SteveCallas wrote:

Sure, they "sold out" of them, but that could mean they only made 50 - just don't know.

For much of the short lifespan the 5400 had, it wasn't even in stock. When it was first released, it had the regular Alu cone (shortly). Thats no good. Then they switched to Ti (clear coat), but their Ti cone source was having trouble making them without visual defects. Then they started powder coating them black. By that time, the most recent runs of 5400s were put together and promptly sold out. Then TC restructured and ended their online direct business. There wasn't a moment when they could even build 25 or 50x what they did, let alone sell more than that.

But hey...it happens. At least the 5400 will return relatively unchanged as the LMS-Ultra at Audiopulse. We just don't know when it will be available, where it will be available, and for how much.

**ssabripo** · **09-19-07, 07:45 AM**

Quote:

SteveCallas wrote:

Looking back at how TC Sounds released and advertised this woofer, I think they really missed the target. Had they merely done a FR and THD test akin to yours Ilkka, just about every DIY'er willing to spend up to $1000 would have bought one....or two. That thing is amazing. I'm just baffled now though about how easy it would have been for them to sell a ton more. Yeah yeah, people will say that DIY'ers are a very small percentage of their business, but with this driver being so clearly superior to anything else out there, again, I can see EVERY enthusiast buying one. They'd have sold at least 75x what they did going about things they way they have

interesting you say this Steve...good to hear you change your tune.

I guess it took Ilkka's measurements to prove to you why I was sackriding this driver over and over again since last year way before I did the two towers.

**Rodny Alvarez** · **09-19-07, 09:25 AM**

Quote:

anidabi wrote:

Hmmm... okay, so audio pulse has now almost the whole TC-Sounds lineup. I wonder how expensive the drivers will be?

LMS ultra 18" for car audio(audio pulse)

$ 2999 MSRP

**Ilkka** · **09-19-07, 09:28 AM**

Quote:

Rodny Alvarez wrote:

LMS ultra 18" for car audio(audio pulse)

$ 2999 MSRP

WOW! Are you a dealer?

**Lindahl** · **09-19-07, 09:41 AM**

Quote:

Klip wrote:

Why not organize a group buy?

I'm all for that!

**Mike P.** · **09-19-07, 10:02 AM**

Quote:

Rodny Alvarez wrote:

LMS ultra 18" for car audio(audio pulse)

$ 2999 MSRP

That's nuts. Could you tell us where you found the pricing on these units?

**Sonnie** · **09-19-07, 11:44 AM**

Rodny works at CKR, in Montgomery, Alabama. CKR is an automotive retail and install shop. Some of you may remember he helped me build my behemoth sub and did the IB makeover.

I have a feeling they won't be selling too many of those.

**Scott S** · **09-19-07, 12:27 PM**

Wow!

*shakes head in disbelief*

"Looking back at how TC Sounds released and advertised this woofer, I think they really missed the target. Had they merely done a FR and THD test akin to yours Ilkka, just about every DIY'er willing to spend up to $1000 would have bought one....or two. That thing is amazing. I'm just baffled now though about how easy it would have been for them to sell a ton more. Yeah yeah, people will say that DIY'ers are a very small percentage of their business, but with this driver being so clearly superior to anything else out there, again, I can see EVERY enthusiast buying one. They'd have sold at least 75x what they did going about things they way they have "

Seriously. They talked it up about how superior the LMS tech was on this thing and just a few graphs to back that claim up sure would have put more sales on their (TCSounds) table. Its pretty sad they way things are now. Well, is the Audiopulse version much different from this one? Other than the blue instead of red cast frame? T/S specs wise?

I have still want these things. Oh wells...

**noah katz** · **09-19-07, 12:49 PM**

Not to be a wet blanket, but is there perhaps excessive enthusiasm considering the level at which these tests were done?

Ilkka, roughly what was the max excursion seen in this test?

"When it was first released, it had the regular Alu cone (shortly). Thats no good."

How so? For the same mass, an aluminum cone is stiffer (higher breakup freq) and 35 times higher thermal conductivity than titanium.

**Scott S** · **09-19-07, 01:30 PM**

Quote:

How so? For the same mass, an aluminum cone is stiffer (higher breakup freq) and 35 times higher thermal conductivity than titanium.

Really? Im not saying I know everything but I thought it was the other way around. Not so? Well, if thats the case. Im glad my 18's have anodized aluminum cones.

**ISLAND1000** · **09-19-07, 02:18 PM**

Quote:

noah katz wrote:

Not to be a wet blanket, but is there perhaps excessive enthusiasm considering the level at which these tests were done?

No not really. The DYIers have known about the LMS-5400 for a long time. It's higher price and limited availability has kept it from becoming the "normal" or "accepted" DYI 18" unit everybody would use.
Yes, it has not yet been fully tested and proven, even though the few box builders who own one have given it rave reviews.
Ilkkas first admittedly superficial testing has confirmed some of the FR and distortion qualities and hint at the power handling capability of the speakers design and build quality. We (the audio community) await more professional quality testing in-box, in LLT, in PR, or even IB. Ilkka will provide some of that professional level testing and will share the data given time and quiet approval.

Ilkka! Will you please hurry up!!

**Ricci** · **09-19-07, 02:37 PM**

I knew I should have bought 2 of these

I guess the best that we can hope for now, if the MSRP is $2999, is that they'll be $1499

**WillyD** · **09-19-07, 02:55 PM**

Quote:

noah katz wrote:

Not to be a wet blanket, but is there perhaps excessive enthusiasm considering the level at which these tests were done?

Ilkka, roughly what was the max excursion seen in this test?

"When it was first released, it had the regular Alu cone (shortly). Thats no good."

How so? For the same mass, an aluminum cone is stiffer (higher breakup freq) and 35 times higher thermal conductivity than titanium.

I don't think it is excessive. The 5400 effectively had lower THD at the 105dB sweep than the SDX had at the 90dB sweep. We'll certainly know more after the next outdoors session. That should be a real hoot.

Who said the Alu cone and the Ti cone were the same mass?

Higher breakup freq. shouldn't be a big deal to anyone using a sub, as a sub.

And this is what TC said about it:

"The all new and retooled single dish lightweight titanium cone remains one of the strongest cones we have developed for a high performance driver. Constructed from a single dish, rather than a two piece cone and dust cap assembly, the lightweight titanium diaphragm is inherently stronger and more rigid than anything that stands before it. Titanium is also highly resistance to dents and fatiguing. In fact, when assembled, a small person could easily stand on one of our subwoofers in shoes without leaving a single dent (don't try it!). Furthermore, our ultra durable high gloss clear powder coat protects these dishes against scratches, and even unwanted substances which may spill onto the driver. Between the powder coated titanium and NBR surround, its unlikely you'll ever damage the visible parts of your driver for as long as you own it."

If the TC Forums weren't shut down I could find the posts where Kyle talked more in depth about the switch to Ti.

And when i said "no good" keep in mind I was referring to the older TC Alu cones. They made a switch sometime between las fall and now, to a stiffer, more improved Alu cone.

**Ilkka** · **09-19-07, 04:15 PM**

Quote:

noah katz wrote:

Not to be a wet blanket, but is there perhaps excessive enthusiasm considering the level at which these tests were done?

Ilkka, roughly what was the max excursion seen in this test?

The maximum peak to peak excursion wasn't more than around 10 mm, but actually that's not the point here. The point is that both the TC-2000 and the SDX15 were already starting to "struggle" at these power levels (around 15-20 watts). And you can check my latest GP session results for the TC-2000 (multiple subwoofers), and see that it isn't the worst driver there is. Far from it. The LMS-5400 is clearly superior to both TC-2000 and SDX15 when it comes to distortion. Of course it will be interesting to see what kind of difference there is when we use a few kilowatts of power. I doubt it goes smaller than these low-level tests show.

**Iggster1986** · **09-19-07, 04:37 PM**

Quote:

Ricci wrote:

I knew I should have bought 2 of these

I guess the best that we can hope for now, if the MSRP is $2999, is that they'll be $1499

and if you got friends at shops about $700, I am getting a pair and showing off to people I spent $3000 on subs

**Ilkka** · **09-19-07, 04:47 PM**

Quote:

ssabripo wrote:

interesting you say this Steve...good to hear you change your tune.

I guess it took Ilkka's measurements to prove to you why I was sackriding this driver over and over again since last year way before I did the two towers.

Oh come on Shervin, be a sport.

Neither you nor Steve had any real data to back up those assumptions and shall I say high hopes back then. Granted the specs and the marketing seemed good but as we have seen, those can't be always trusted.

**ssabripo** · **09-19-07, 06:20 PM**

Quote:

Ilkka wrote:

Oh come on Shervin, be a sport.

Neither you nor Steve had any real data to back up those assumptions and shall I say high hopes back then. Granted the specs and the marketing seemed good but as we have seen, those can't be always trusted.

actually, not quite bro'. Before I landed the two Ava18's, I kept the LMS5400 on the purchase button, and had several discussions, simulations (with the given T/S), comparisons with the ava18 LLT simulations, etc.............Willy can testify, as he jumped in there as well.

but all I heard back was "the ava18 is the superior driver, bang for buck", "LMS5400 doesn't seem like a good LLT driver at all...more like sealed" and "why would anyone buy this driver when you can buy 3 RL-P15's for teh same price", etc,

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/...hlight=LMS5400
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/...&&#post8465380

I'm just saying.....

**Ilkka** · **09-19-07, 06:42 PM**

Quote:

ssabripo wrote:

actually, not quite bro'. Before I landed the two Ava18's, I kept the LMS5400 on the purchase button, and had several discussions, simulations (with the given T/S), comparisons with the ava18 LLT simulations, etc.............Willy can testify, as he jumped in there as well.

but all I heard back was "the ava18 is the superior driver, bang for buck", "LMS5400 doesn't seem like a good LLT driver at all...more like sealed" and "why would anyone buy this driver when you can buy 3 RL-P15's for teh same price", etc,

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/...hlight=LMS5400
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/...&&#post8465380

I'm just saying.....

No no, Sherv, you got me all wrong (well what could be expected when two non-native English speaking persons are trying to communicate over the Internet

).

I meant that even you didn't know that the LMS would perform this good back then. We only had the marketing talk but nothing else. So IMO it's bit unfair to say that SteveC needed my measurements to finally admit it. And because that also goes to me.

The LMS-5400 isn't still a good LLT/EBS driver. It's suited for small sealed and small ported (via passive radiators) alignments.

**SteveCallas** · **09-19-07, 10:46 PM**

Quote:

ssabripo wrote:

interesting you say this Steve...good to hear you change your tune. I guess it took Ilkka's measurements to prove to you why I was sackriding this driver over and over again since last year way before I did the two towers.

Quote:

Ilkka wrote:

I meant that even you didn't know that the LMS would perform this good back then. We only had the marketing talk but nothing else.

Exactly - what was the sackriding based on at the time? Flowery wording and a BL linearity chart was all they gave us, a simple FR and THD measurement like Ilkka did - which should be well, well within their capabilities - would have said tons more than even 20 pages of marketing speak.

I still don't like the parameters of this driver, as it makes it difficult to "milk" the performance out of it, but the ultra low distortion and nice FR still win me over enough to be excited (if not about this specific driver, the LMS technology). For as great as it would be in a small sealed with EQ, it would be that much better if it were suited towards a LLT. For the cost, if given the choice, I'd still take 3 Avalanche 18s to this driver, but that's not an option anymore. Now if they use this LMS technology to make an 18" driver better suited to a LLT that doesn't need its own powerplant to extract 90% of the performance.....say one that would work well in ~650 liters with a 13hz tune, and came in a bit cheaper, that would obviously be my top choice.

Quote:

noah wrote:

Not to be a wet blanket, but is there perhaps excessive enthusiasm considering the level at which these tests were done?

It was a comparative test, so I think there is plenty of reason to be excited. It is much, much better than either of the other drivers.

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