20-39PCi vs. PB12-NSD.....???

**mrsollars** · **04-28-08, 10:20 AM**

what is the difference between these two besides footprint.
also....if i go cylinder....is it worth it to upgrade to the 20-39PC-Plus??

thanks guys.
matt

**mrsollars** · **04-30-08, 08:29 AM**

anybody?

**drdoan** · **04-30-08, 09:32 AM**

Matt, any upgrade will be worth the extra "head room". When a loud bass passage hits the sub, you will hear more gut renching bass! I would always get the best bass I could afford, as it will reward you with a lot of fun. Dennis

**mrsollars** · **04-30-08, 09:35 AM**

thank you for that....but is there any difference between the pb12-nsd and the 20-39pci??

thanks

**Macfan424** · **04-30-08, 12:14 PM**

There is not much difference. And that is an intentional design goal.

They use the same driver and amp. The PB12-NSD is tuned a couple of Hz lower, while the 20-39PCi may be capable of a dB or two more output, but you are unlikely to be conscious of either in a real world situation.

**lalakersfan34** · **04-30-08, 08:53 PM**

Quote:

Macfan424 wrote:

There is not much difference. And that is an intentional design goal.

They use the same driver and amp. The PB12-NSD is tuned a couple of Hz lower, while the 20-39PCi may be capable of a dB or two more output, but you are unlikely to be conscious of either in a real world situation.

I've actually talked to Ed Mullen numerous times about the 20-39 PCi and PB12-NSD. The PB12 is both tuned a bit lower AND produces a little more output across its entire frequency response. The two subs do perform similarly, but Ed's recommendation to me was along the lines of "if you have the space, the PB12-NSD will give you a bit more performance for your $599".

**Macfan424** · **05-01-08, 12:01 PM**

Quote:

lalakersfan34 wrote:

I've actually talked to Ed Mullen numerous times about the 20-39 PCi and PB12-NSD. The PB12 is both tuned a bit lower AND produces a little more output across its entire frequency response. The two subs do perform similarly, but Ed's recommendation to me was along the lines of "if you have the space, the PB12-NSD will give you a bit more performance for your $599".

Well, far be it for me to dispute Ed.

I gained a different impression from him, but I never asked the question directly. I'm a big fan of the PB12-NSD, though, and would heartily recommend it. It's an incredible value.

**lalakersfan34** · **05-01-08, 12:29 PM**

Quote:

Macfan424 wrote:

Well, far be it for me to dispute Ed.

I gained a different impression from him, but I never asked the question directly. I'm a big fan of the PB12-NSD, though, and would heartily recommend it. It's an incredible value.

I do agree with what you said at the end of your original quote, about it being a rather minor difference between the two. The PB12-NSD by no means crushes the 20-39 PCi, but it does have a slight and perceivable advantage in both extension and max SPL. I think Ed told me the reason was that it has a larger enclosure with more interior volume, making it more efficient (given the same driver and amp). For those concerned with space, the 20-39 PCi will still rock your room

.

Come to think of it, the 20-39 PCi CAN have slightly better deep extension than the PB12-NSD, because SVS can custom tune the 20-39 PCi to 17hz. Of course this sacrifices a bit of output in the upper frequencies. But in the stock 20hz tune, the PB12-NSD has more output down low.

Out of curiosity, do you have the 20-39 PCi or the PB12-NSD? I wish I could hear them for myself. Right now I'm making due with two PB10-NSD's.

**Ed Mullen** · **05-01-08, 01:22 PM**

The PB12-NSD is tuned a few Hz deeper than the 20-39 PCi. The PB12-NSD also has higher max clean output at all test frequencies from 16-80 Hz. The advantage for the box isn't huge, but it's measureable.

Normal convention would dictate the deeper tuned product would sacifice some headroom in the mid bass regions above tuning, and that is certainly the case within a given line-up. For example the 25-31 vs. 20-39 vs. 16-46 behave as expected in this regard.

But the box form factor has a slight (but consistent) inherent advantage over the cylinder form factor under actual test conditions, even with all things otherwise being equal, like woofer, amp, port, system tuning frequency. In theory the shape of the enclosure shouldn't matter if the effective interior volume is the same, but that doesn't exactly translate to reality. We have several working theories on this, none of which I will entertain as discussion points, but suffice it to say it's an interesting phenomenon which we've been studying for some time now.

With that said, in actual use the real-world performance differences between the box and cylinder versions are minor and I would encourage any would-be customer to focus more on size/weight/footprint/portability/decor integration and less on the performance differential when evaluating which model is best for his particular application.

**Macfan424** · **05-01-08, 01:54 PM**

Quote:

lalakersfan34 wrote:

...Out of curiosity, do you have the 20-39 PCi or the PB12-NSD? I wish I could hear them for myself. Right now I'm making due with two PB10-NSD's.

I have a PB12-NSD, which is "paired" with a 16-46PC-Plus (couldn't match for space reasons). I've been amazed at how well the PB12-NSD has held up in comparison, although room location, etc, are factors.

I had "assumed" (always a mistake!) that the 20-39 PCi would play a bit louder because I thought it had more interior volume as well as a higher tuning point. Ed set that straight. He also made a point I intended to in my first reply: The choice should be made based on other considerations, because the performance differences between them are too small to worry about. The room will have a greater effect in the end than the design difference.

**lalakersfan34** · **05-01-08, 01:54 PM**

Great post, Ed. I was actually hoping you'd show up and give the "official" report, instead of me trying my best to convey what you'd told me from memory (a scary proposition, and hopefully one not fraught with inaccuracies). Both subs rock, I'm sure, and that's what matters

.

**lalakersfan34** · **05-01-08, 01:58 PM**

Quote:

Macfan424 wrote:

I have a PB12-NSD, which is "paired" with a 16-46PC-Plus (couldn't match for space reasons). I've been amazed at how well the PB12-NSD has held up in comparison, although room location, etc, are factors.

I had "assumed" (always a mistake!) that the 20-39 PCi would play a bit louder because I thought it had more interior volume as well as a higher tuning point. Ed set that straight. He also made a point I intended to in my first reply: The choice should be made based on other considerations, because the performance differences between them are too small to worry about. The room will have a greater effect in the end than the design difference.

Wow, I bet your room gets pummeled by a 16-46 PC+ AND a PB12-NSD! How big is it? My PB10's are in a ~900 cubic foot room, so it's safe to say I'm not exactly "lacking" in the bass department, but I bet your room is pretty intense with both of those subs

.

To the OP: looks like Ed "the man" Mullen (can I call him that?) came in and answered your questions better than any of us could. The PB12-NSD and 20-39 PCi are pretty comparable in real-world use, and form factor should be your main consideration. Either way, I think you'll be blown away by the quality of SVS products. Good luck with your decision.

**Macfan424** · **05-01-08, 02:17 PM**

Quote:

lalakersfan34 wrote:

Wow, I bet your room gets pummeled by a 16-46 PC+ AND a PB12-NSD! How big is it? My PB10's are in a ~900 cubic foot room, so it's safe to say I'm not exactly "lacking" in the bass department, but I bet your room is pretty intense with both of those subs

.

My room is ~2200 cu. ft., and yes, they do a splendid job. I keep the bass pretty flat (with an SMS-1), but when there is bass in the programming, you know it.

But two PB10's in a 900 cu. ft. room have to be pretty impressive, too.

Quote:

lalakersfan34 wrote:

To the OP: looks like Ed "the man" Mullen (can I call him that?) came in and answered your questions better than any of us could. The PB12-NSD and 20-39 PCi are pretty comparable in real-world use, and form factor should be your main consideration. Either way, I think you'll be blown away by the quality of SVS products. Good luck with your decision.

Agreed. I only answered because the OP had been left dangling for a couple days. Glad Ed showed up to give him the best answer possible. The only thing that equals SVS products is their customer service.

**lalakersfan34** · **05-01-08, 02:42 PM**

Quote:

Macfan424 wrote:

My room is ~2200 cu. ft., and yes, they do a splendid job. I keep the bass pretty flat (with an SMS-1), but when there is bass in the programming, you know it.

I bet

. I'm using an FBQ 2496 with REW and also have my bass well under control. It's amazing how ugly in-room FR can be until you tame it with EQ/treatments, isn't it?

Quote:

Macfan424 wrote:

But two PB10's in a 900 cu. ft. room have to be pretty impressive, too.

They aren't too bad

Quote:

Macfan424 wrote:

Agreed. I only answered because the OP had been left dangling for a couple days. Glad Ed showed up to give him the best answer possible. The only thing that equals SVS products is their customer service.

Yep, Ed is the man. I agree 100% with your last sentence - SVS's service AND products are absolutely unbelievable.

**OvalNut** · **05-01-08, 06:52 PM**

Quote:

lalakersfan34 wrote:

It's amazing how ugly in-room FR can be until you tame it with EQ/treatments, isn't it?

That is so true.

Tim

**mrsollars** · **05-01-08, 11:36 PM**

thanks for all of the posts/advice guys.

i think space wise.....i'm going to go with the 20-39. HOWEVER......now i'm trying to decide between the Pci vs. the PC-Plus. anybody with both want to chime in with some advice on this move???

thanks guys.

matt

**lalakersfan34** · **05-01-08, 11:43 PM**

Quote:

mrsollars wrote:

thanks for all of the posts/advice guys.

i think space wise.....i'm going to go with the 20-39. HOWEVER......now i'm trying to decide between the Pci vs. the PC-Plus. anybody with both want to chime in with some advice on this move???

thanks guys.

matt

That depends primarily on how large your room is, how loud you want to listen, and how much money you have to spend

. If money were no issue, I don't think I'd ever recommend the 20-39 PCi over the 20-39 PC Plus. The 20-39 Plus will give more headroom, has a better driver, and allows you to adjust the tune of the sub to fit your needs. However, the $300 price difference is substantial, and if you're in a small room and/or don't need the extra headroom, the 20-39 PCi would probably be a great solution for you.

**Ed Mullen** · **05-02-08, 06:35 AM**

I'm pleased to see a growing emphasis on FR correction. For the tweakers, REW and the FBQ 2496 are hard to beat for performance value and corrective power, and a flat in-room FR can make a huge difference in the bass sound quality.

Mac, the PB12-NSD is actually a very good match-up for the 16-46 PCi or the 16-46 PC-Plus, being tuned almost as deep (actual system tuning is about 17 Hz).

mrsollars: Think of the 20-39 PC-Plus as being worth about 1.3-1.6 (frequency dependent) 20-39 PCi. Otherwise they will sound/perform very similarly as low to moderate volumes. The largest advantage for the PC-Plus lies in the 20-50 Hz bandwidth, where the extra power, different woofer, and triple 3" ports give the PC-Plus about a 4 dB (60%) edge in clean output. Above 50 Hz, they are closer in max output, with the stronger amp in the PC-Plus being mostly responsible for a ~ 2dB advantage.

**mrsollars** · **05-02-08, 06:43 AM**

does this mean that at lower volumes.....the pb12-nsd will ''go lower'' or hit lower notes than the 20-39pc-plus??

i really need to just decide and go for it. is there an exchange policy there at good ol' SVS?!?!

thanks
matt

**Ed Mullen** · **05-02-08, 07:01 AM**

Quote:

mrsollars wrote:

does this mean that at lower volumes.....the pb12-nsd will ''go lower'' or hit lower notes than the 20-39pc-plus??

i really need to just decide and go for it. is there an exchange policy there at good ol' SVS?!?!

thanks
matt

Hi Matt:

If desired, the 20-39 PC-Plus can be tuned to 16 Hz and will play as deep (even a shade deeper) than the PB12-NSD.

We offer a 45-day in-home trial; all you risk is shipping on the exchange process.

**Macfan424** · **05-02-08, 10:44 AM**

Quote:

Ed Mullen wrote:

...Mac, the PB12-NSD is actually a very good match-up for the 16-46 PCi or the 16-46 PC-Plus, being tuned almost as deep (actual system tuning is about 17 Hz)...

You had persuaded me of that before I added the PB12-NSD.

Even so, I was very impressed when I got it in my room, and became a huge fan of the PB12-NSD, which is my candidate for SVS's most underrated offering.

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