The astounding new AS-EQ1 SubEQ goes on sale!

**Kal Rubinson** · **05-18-09, 04:59 PM**

Quote:

Lordoftherings wrote:

Lol, I just woke up. Plenty of sleep.

100% agree with each word from your post.

Was there something awkward in my previous phrasing?

Yeah. That may be it as I see many of your posts to be 'almost' right and subject to what I see as imprecise wording. Haven't you noticed the pattern of post and riposte?

Quote:

P.S. By the way, is "afaik" stands for: And For Additional Information K... (Kal)?

As Far As I Know, no.

Kal

**Lordoftherings** · **05-18-09, 08:21 PM**

Quote:

Kal Rubinson wrote:

Yeah. That may be it as I see many of your posts to be 'almost' right and subject to what I see as imprecise wording. Haven't you noticed the pattern of post and riposte?

As Far As I Know, no.

Kal

Thanks Kal,

"As far as I know", I love this, cool. How come I didn't know that?

And here at the Shack, we enjoy each other.

Not like at AVS, sometimes...

It's nice to see you here at the Shack Kal, I hope you enjoy all the very nice people.

And don't take my smilies too seriously, I just love them so much, they cut our words short to put some very fun humor in our exchanges.

Here's to you

Kal,

Bob

**eugovector** · **05-19-09, 02:01 PM**

AFAIK = As Far As I Know

**aNomad** · **05-19-09, 06:15 PM**

Quote:

Lordoftherings wrote:

Hi,

Thank you for your interest and disbelief.

You're welcome, I can disbelieve all kinds of things :-) Thank you for all of the info! You seem to know a lot about it, are you an Audyssey insider?

Quote:

Lordoftherings wrote:

The 512 FIR filters from the Denon AVR-5805 are mentioned in the review of the 5805 at "Ultimate AV Mag" from January 2006 by Thomas J. Norton: -> http://www.ultimateavmag.com/avreceivers/106denon
Just go to page 3 under the banner "2006: A Space Audyssey".
Here: http://www.ultimateavmag.com/avrecei...on/index2.html

Chris, the main man at Audyssey will not mention how many filters there are in the different version of Aydyssey (2EQ, MultEQ, MultEQ XT, SEQ, DSX and PRO software version).

Yes, I have noticed. 512 taps, yes I believe that. That will cause a 5ms delay in the sound (per filter). 512 filters? no way.

Quote:

JohnM wrote:

The taps of an FIR filter are simply the values of each sample of the filter's impulse response, they are separated in time by the sample rate at which the filter operates. The low frequency resolution is determined by the total duration of the filter's impulse response = number of taps divided by the sample rate.

Yes, that's right. With an FIR filter, many taps are necessary for LF resolution. My guess would be the actual number of taps varies depending upon the frequency and Q of the stage. I still don't know how many FILTERS are used per channel.

Quote:

Lordoftherings wrote:

These are quite complex systems, where the engineers work for many years to perfect, so it is normal that they keep some secrets about it. I would too.

I say that depends upon the secrets. Proprietary algorithms, yes. How many filters are being used, no. Before I put anything in my stereo system, I want to know EXACTLY what it does. To me, the lack of specific info appears to be a marketing decision. Vagueness spawns conjecture, which become facts once repeated often enough, whether they are actually facts or not. Marketing 101 says the fewer facts actually given, the better the marketing campaign. the psychology is that the more people understand something, the less impressed they are. Don't get me wrong, I believe the MultEQ is a powerful and sophisticated piece of equipment, but I'll never own one until they explain what it does.

Oh, and since physics haven't actually been changed, there is still no way to equalize a system for EVERY seat in the theater. Pfff

**JohnM** · **05-19-09, 06:39 PM**

Quote:

aNomad wrote:

My guess would be the actual number of taps varies depending upon the frequency and Q of the stage. I still don't know how many FILTERS are used per channel.

One, but that does not mean it is equivalent to a single IIR biquad (aka parametric EQ filter). In an FIR filter the tap values are changed to create the desired response shape across the whole bandwidth of the filter, the number of taps is chosen for the required low frequency resolution and transition bandwidths (roughly speaking, how fast the frequency response changes). The Audyssey filters are not, strictly speaking, FIR, as they use a structure called warped FIR that introduces feedback paths between each tap so the impulse response is no longer finite. That is done because the warped structure allows the filter's resolution to vary with frequency, so low frequency resolution can be increased (and high frequency resolution reduced) to give more accurate control at low frequencies than the filter length would allow in a true FIR structure - the length reduction can be a factor of 10 or more, which is fortunate as otherwise the filter lengths for effective low frequency control would be so long that the EQ unit would have a very significant time delay, with consequent audio/video alignment problems.

**Lordoftherings** · **05-19-09, 10:31 PM**

Quote:

eugovector wrote:

AFAIK = As Far As I Know

Yep, thanks Marshall, Kal just fill me in. Still appreciate though.

By the way, how's things these days? Everythings is sounds?

Something new and exciting? New stereo? New girlfriend? Wheater's good?

Any thoughts on the AS-EQ1? Or you still holding on to that 705?

Bob

**Lordoftherings** · **05-19-09, 11:00 PM**

Still need to practice my skills at mutiquoting.

**Lordoftherings** · **05-19-09, 11:03 PM**

Hi Bill,

Sorry for this mess. But it is in response to your multiquote post just above.

*Not at all, I just know what I read so far and what comes from my receiver.
Hey, how many people live on the earth now? That's how much different beliefs you have.

*Yep, you are right.

*So, you won't buy Anthem products neither? And Yamaha, you must be a fan. Pioneer, I bet you are too.
Marantz, nay, it's got some Audyssey too. No Denon, no Onkyo/Integra, no NAD...

*No, but you can pinpoint a good average of the main area.

So, what's good in your opinion? (Best type of room EQ system.)

Bob

**Lordoftherings** · **05-19-09, 11:28 PM**

Quote:

JohnM wrote:

One, but that does not mean it is equivalent to a single IIR biquad (aka parametric EQ filter). In an FIR filter the tap values are changed to create the desired response shape across the whole bandwidth of the filter, the number of taps is chosen for the required low frequency resolution and transition bandwidths (roughly speaking, how fast the frequency response changes). The Audyssey filters are not, strictly speaking, FIR, as they use a structure called warped FIR that introduces feedback paths between each tap so the impulse response is no longer finite. That is done because the warped structure allows the filter's resolution to vary with frequency, so low frequency resolution can be increased (and high frequency resolution reduced) to give more accurate control at low frequencies than the filter length would allow in a true FIR structure - the length reduction can be a factor of 10 or more, which is fortunate as otherwise the filter lengths for effective low frequency control would be so long that the EQ unit would have a very significant time delay, with consequent audio/video alignment problems.

Quite impressive explanation John. It is beyond my understanding for the most part.
I think that I need some adjustment to make in the filtration business.
Finite or Infinite Impulse Response filters, just have to put them at their right place and accept it as a logical fact.
But it seems to be more complex than this...

Any good readings with links perhaps?

Any commentary on ARC digital Room EQ system and it's functionment?

Best regards,

Bob

**Patrick Nevin** · **05-19-09, 11:37 PM**

Hi,

Long time reader here. I have a Yamaha RX-V 2700 and I am wondering since I can reset the sub EQ to flat, do I need to do the the entire YPAO setup when I get the ASEQ1? Also what mode should I use to disable the bass management?

Thanks
Patrick

**Patrick Nevin** · **05-20-09, 12:46 AM**

**JohnM** · **05-20-09, 10:26 AM**

Quote:

Lordoftherings wrote:

Any good readings with links perhaps?

On the Equalisation of loudspeakers in closed rooms (1998)
Genelec Papers
Digital Room Correction Wiki

**Rookie100fun** · **05-20-09, 01:00 PM**

Hi everyone,

I finally got what I expected to have from AS-EQ1 so far. Although the curve is not perfect, the LFE effect I have now is way improved as compare to just relying on the AutoEQ function of my Denon AVP-A1HD.

**eugovector** · **05-20-09, 01:26 PM**

Well, life's piling up with some instability on the job front, but I'm hoping that in a month I'll have a new job, new timezone, same girlfriend, and lots of time to podcast. As for the AS-EQ1, you can be assured that there's one on my wishlist, but $$ and time are tight so the HT is one hold right now.

Some day, the AS-EQ1 will be mine (along with a 80-100" AT Screen, 1080p Projector, and some bass traps).

Quote:

Lordoftherings wrote:

Yep, thanks Marshall, Kal just fill me in. Still appreciate though.

By the way, how's things these days? Everythings is sounds?

Something new and exciting? New stereo? New girlfriend? Wheater's good?

Any thoughts on the AS-EQ1? Or you still holding on to that 705?

Bob

**Lordoftherings** · **05-20-09, 02:01 PM**

Quote:

JohnM wrote:

On the Equalisation of loudspeakers in closed rooms (1998)
Genelec Papers
Digital Room Correction Wiki

Thank you very much so John, greatly appreciated.

Bob

**Lordoftherings** · **05-20-09, 02:06 PM**

Quote:

eugovector wrote:

Well, life's piling up with some instability on the job front, but I'm hoping that in a month I'll have a new job, new timezone, same girlfriend, and lots of time to podcast. As for the AS-EQ1, you can be assured that there's one on my wishlist, but $$ and time are tight so the HT is one hold right now.

Some day, the AS-EQ1 will be mine (along with a 80-100" AT Screen, 1080p Projector, and some bass traps).

Cool Marshall, nice to hear from you and I wish you well, may your dreams come through.

Bob

**Lordoftherings** · **05-20-09, 02:12 PM**

Quote:

Patrick Nevin wrote:

Hi,

Long time reader here. I have a Yamaha RX-V 2700 and I am wondering since I can reset the sub EQ to flat, do I need to do the the entire YPAO setup when I get the ASEQ1? Also what mode should I use to disable the bass management?

Thanks
Patrick

Hi Patrick,

I'm sure the instruction's manual coming with the AS-EQ1 will explain how to proceed in these matters.
You could probably download that manual, or find more details on the AS-EQ1 on line.

Bob

**Doug McBride** · **05-20-09, 05:13 PM**

Quote:

Patrick Nevin wrote:

Hi,

Long time reader here. I have a Yamaha RX-V 2700 and I am wondering since I can reset the sub EQ to flat, do I need to do the the entire YPAO setup when I get the AS-EQ1? Also what mode should I use to disable the bass management?

Thanks
Patrick

Patrick - I'm not that familiar with the capabilities of the RX-V2700, however the intent of re-running any receiver Autoeq (like YPAO) with the AS-EQ1 is to fake the receiver into thinking the subwoofer is perfectly flat (which of course it isn't) so no EQ is applied to those frequencies leaving them to the AS-EQ1. If you've already run YPAO and it has EQed your Sub "flat", then there is already EQ being applied to those frequencies which need to be removed so both the Yammie and the AS-EQ1 aren't both applying EQ. So to answer your question, the answer is "yes, you should re-run your YPAO per the instructions in the AS-EQ1 manual". Just make sure you recheck your speaker settings and reset to small with the appropriate crossover if YPAO has set them to Large.

I took a quick look at the 2700 manual and on page 28 it seems as through there is no processing applied to the Multichannel inputs, hence to bass management so you should be OK. Also noted some more info on page 42 and 43 IIRC.

Cheers,

Doug

**Patrick Nevin** · **05-20-09, 06:19 PM**

Lordoftherings i was reading the manual last night and I wasn't clear on a couple of things.

Doug right now that EQ part of the sub YPAO is reading flat. The YPAO software has a feature where you can reset it to flat. I am just wondering because it is set to flat and I can reset it to flat if i can just skip the YPAO part. The Multi Channel input not having any bass management dose make sense because you can hook up an external decoder that could have bass management in it. I am going to search the manual tonight for more info.

I get the ASEQ1 tomorrow so hopefully i can play with it tomorrow night.

**Doug McBride** · **05-20-09, 06:35 PM**

Quote:

Patrick Nevin wrote:

Lordoftherings i was reading the manual last night and I wasn't clear on a couple of things.

Doug right now that EQ part of the sub YPAO is reading flat. The YPAO software has a feature where you can reset it to flat. I am just wondering because it is set to flat and I can reset it to flat if i can just skip the YPAO part. The Multi Channel input not having any bass management dose make sense because you can hook up an external decoder that could have bass management in it. I am going to search the manual tonight for more info.

I get the AS-EQ1 tomorrow so hopefully i can play with it tomorrow night.

Patrick - what we're trying to avoid is the situation where you are double EQing with the Yammie and the AS-EQ1. The YPAO setting of "flat" is one of three different ways it applies EQ settings if I read the manual correctly, which means it is EQing the lower frequencies that the AS-EQ1 should be responsible for.

The only way you can get the Yammie not to apply EQ to those frequencies is to re-run the YPAO setup looped through the AS-EQ1 as described in the AS-EQ1 manual, or alternatively disable YPAO so no EQ is being applied. Of course if you disabled YPAO, it wouldn't be applying any EQ to your mains and surrounds if that is what you want.

Hope that makes sense.

Doug

**Patrick Nevin** · **05-20-09, 11:59 PM**

Quote:

Doug McBride wrote:

Patrick - what we're trying to avoid is the situation where you are double EQing with the Yammie and the AS-EQ1. The YPAO setting of "flat" is one of three different ways it applies EQ settings if I read the manual correctly, which means it is EQing the lower frequencies that the AS-EQ1 should be responsible for.

The only way you can get the Yammie not to apply EQ to those frequencies is to re-run the YPAO setup looped through the AS-EQ1 as described in the AS-EQ1 manual, or alternatively disable YPAO so no EQ is being applied. Of course if you disabled YPAO, it wouldn't be applying any EQ to your mains and surrounds if that is what you want.

Hope that makes sense

Doug

Doug,

I am going to have to re-eq the speakers anyway because I toed in my main speakers which is making the sound field and bass really good for now. In the auto setup there is options to setup the wiring (speaker polarity), distance, size, eq (which i choose natural over flat), and level. I know i am doing the EQ part of it but should I do any of the others that I listed?

Thanks for the help

Patrick

**oakboy37** · **05-21-09, 03:32 AM**

Here are my graphs,

IT sounds absolutely brilliant!!

edit: I will try and get them up again...doh!!!

**aNomad** · **05-21-09, 04:14 AM**

Quote:

Lordoftherings wrote:

Hi Bill,

Sorry for this mess. But it is in response to your multiquote post just above.

No problem buddy, I understand. Multiquoting is a bother for sure! I often use notepad, but end up having to edit significantly. I'm trying something new this time: copying and pasting end quote and beginning quote markers, that's why this whole post is only responding to your post, I'm not picking on you.

Quote:

Lordoftherings wrote:

*Not at all, I just know what I read so far and what comes from my receiver.
Hey, how many people live on the earth now? That's how much different beliefs you have.

Very true!

Quote:

Lordoftherings wrote:

*Yep, you are right.

Thanks :-D

Quote:

Lordoftherings wrote:

*So, you won't buy Anthem products neither? And Yamaha, you must be a fan. Pioneer, I bet you are too.
Marantz, nay, it's got some Audyssey too. No Denon, no Onkyo/Integra, no NAD...

Well, if I did, I wouldn't use the Audyssey component until they explained it better. I hate vodoo

Quote:

Lordoftherings wrote:

*No, but you can pinpoint a good average of the main area.

True, and I think that's the best anyone can do. I wish they would say that, but it's all marketing...

Quote:

Lordoftherings wrote:

So, what's good in your opinion? (Best type of room EQ system.)

I'm leaning toward the Neptune EQ. I get it, it's straightforward.

Quote:

Lordoftherings wrote:

Bob

Bill

**Lordoftherings** · **05-21-09, 09:10 AM**

Hi Bill,

Can you give me a link to the Neptune EQ, so I can learn more about your system for EQuing your room?

By the way, nice job with the multiquote feature.

Bob

**Doug McBride** · **05-21-09, 12:02 PM**

Quote:

Patrick Nevin wrote:

Doug,

I am going to have to re-eq the speakers anyway because I toed in my main speakers which is making the sound field and bass really good for now. In the auto setup there is options to setup the wiring (speaker polarity), distance, size, eq (which i choose natural over flat), and level. I know i am doing the EQ part of it but should I do any of the others that I listed?

Thanks for the help

Patrick

Patrick - I'd do them all. What I'd suggest you check after the Calibration run with the AS-EQ1 in-line is Speaker Size. Most AVR OEM systems are famous for setting speakers to Large. I'd suggest you set your speakers to small, and select a crossover that works well with the capabilities of your speakers.

Post your graphs after running SubEQ - it will be interesting to see how the AS-EQ1 does in your room.

Doug

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