The astounding new AS-EQ1 SubEQ goes on sale!

[Kal Rubinson]

aNomad wrote:

I'm leaning toward the Neptune EQ. I get it, it's straightforward.

It is a digital "graphic EQ" with fixed frequencies and fixed Q. Works well. My review is in press.

Kal

[Lordoftherings]

Kal Rubinson wrote:

It is a digital "graphic EQ" with fixed frequencies and fixed Q. Works well. My review is in press.

Kal

Graphic EQ! Works well!

Your review Kal, at Stereophile, is it avail on line too?

Is it possible here at the Shack that you can include the link to Stereophile in your sig? Just like you did at AVS.

By the way Kal, I'm looking at these graphs of the prior page from these two fellows, are those real?
Are they truly representative of the actual measurement before and after AS-EQ1 SubEQ?
Because if they sound as good as they look (after), it must be simply amazingly great sounding sub low frequencies with a total control an pitch definition with the best thump in the cavity of your chest never achieved before! "Astounding" will be indeed the appropriate word.
Better than the AVP-A1 with Audyssey Pro?

Bob

[Kal Rubinson]

Lordoftherings wrote:

Graphic EQ! Works well!

Your review Kal, at Stereophile, is it avail on line too?

The Neptune EQ review will be out in the July issue and will probably appear on line about 60 days after that.

Is it possible here at the Shack that you can include the link to Stereophile in your sig? Just like you did at AVS.

Sure. www.stereophile.com/musicintheround

By the way Kal, I'm looking at these graphs of the prior page from these two fellows, are those real?
Are they truly representative of the actual measurement before and after AS-EQ1 SubEQ?
Because if they sound as good as they look (after), it must be simply amazingly great sounding sub low frequencies with a total control an pitch definition with the best thump in the cavity of your chest never achieved before! "Astounding" will be indeed the appropriate word.

They are typical of all the Audyssey graphs which are smoothed, both the pre and the post. As such, I think they are more representative than detailed.

Better than the AVP-A1 with Audyssey Pro?

Well, I haven't used the AVP-A1 at all but I have used Audyssey Pro with other equipment including the SEQ. Better? Dunno until I measure it.

[JimP]

Was it ever determined how much smoothing was applied to the graph?

For that matter, has anyone posted a REW graph of a smooth AS-EQ1 graph. I'd like to see what the uglies look like.

[Kal Rubinson]

JimP wrote:

Was it ever determined how much smoothing was applied to the graph?

Not that I know of but it is pretty easy to do. One argument is that the smoothed graph is more representative of what we hear and that those with less understanding of the physics and psychophysics would be put off to see the remaining "warts."

For that matter, has anyone posted a REW graph of a smooth AS-EQ1 graph. I'd like to see what the uglies look like.

The uglies would depend on the specific context and, in some cases, not exist postprocessing. The only uglies that matter are your own.

[JimP]

Kal Rubinson wrote:

The uglies would depend on the specific context and, in some cases, not exist postprocessing. The only uglies that matter are your own.

I think I got lost in there somewhere.

I'm just trying to find out if the graph infers a much higher degree of correction than is actually occuring. Granted, some peaks and dips won't matter, but I'd like to see for myself.

Since we're on the topic, one of this forum regulars had an interesting writeup a while back where he felt that you should use 1/3rd octave smoothing to avoid problems caused by overcorrecting small dips/peaks.

[Kal Rubinson]

JimP wrote:

I think I got lost in there somewhere.

I'm just trying to find out if the graph infers a much higher degree of correction than is actually occuring.

I believe so because the "before" curve is equally smoothed. Are either all-revealing? Probably not. Is it a good representation of what it is doing? To a great degree.

Granted, some peaks and dips won't matter, but I'd like to see for myself.

Then you have to measure it independently with REW or other tool.

Since we're on the topic, one of this forum regulars had an interesting writeup a while back where he felt that you should use 1/3rd octave smoothing to avoid problems caused by overcorrecting small dips/peaks.

Not unreasonable.

[Lordoftherings]

Kal Rubinson wrote:

The Neptune EQ review will be out in the July issue and will probably appear on line about 60 days after that.

Sure. www.stereophile.com/musicintheround

They are typical of all the Audyssey graphs which are smoothed, both the pre and the post. As such, I think they are more representative than detailed.

Well, I haven't used the AVP-A1 at all but I have used Audyssey Pro with other equipment including the SEQ. Better? Dunno until I measure it.

Thank you very much so Kal for these very precise answers.

Yeah, I should have mentioned the Integra DTC-9.8 instead of the AVP-A1.
But the nice thing about the AVP-A1 is the three separate subwoofer's correction EQ.

Bob

[Patrick Nevin]

Well I have a flat response from 100 to about 20hz. I did have a few problems like forgetting to plug in the USB to the computer to the ASEQ1 and turning on the auto calibration assistant. I noticed when i was in the YPAO to see the sub filters and it had 1 filter so i reset it to flat. I couldn't use the 0db pink noise but i did get the speaker and sub to read 75db. I used 7 positions which are all from my chair. It said to have my sub distance at 16 feet and to have the trim at -.5. I put the speaker from large to 80 hz. After that i took out the rat shack meter and use the pink noise from my receiver to set all of my speakers including the presence to 75db and the sub to 73db to account for the of the meter on bass. The main volume on the receiver for reference is -5. Bass is MUCH improved. There was no ringing and i can feel the bass more in the chest which is awesome. How hot is the ASEQ1 supposed to get because when i went to turn it off after a couple of hours of use it was hot. I don't want to ruin it because it is too hot. I can move to the top of the subwoofer so it dose not get hot. I am tempted to turn the subwoofer to face the room and see what type of response I get. I might try that when I am feeling better. Another question i have is the way I figure out how to figure out the phase with a 80 and 60hz crossover. I use a cd with those frequencies and i use the suboofer phase in the Yammie gui. i play the 80hz tone with the rat shack meter at my listening position. The sub has the phase at 0 so I have to have the phase in the receiver at reverse. When I do the 60 hz crossover it is normal phase. Do I need to do this with the ASEQ1?

Thanks
Patrick

[CharlieU]

I bought the AS-EQ1 so I could bring my PC+ 20-39, which has been loafing hooked up to my computer, down to my HT setup to join my PC 13 Ultra. I'm using a 16Hz tune on the PC+ and 15Hz tune on the Ultra. My receiver is a Pioneer SC-07.

Since all my gear is squeezed into a pretty compact area, I knew this process was going to be a nightmare. I was right, but I still stuck to it moving the connection around making sure all my speakers were at 75db. After the level matching, it was a piece of cake. Move the tripod, click the button. I did 10 positions, 2 in each outboard seat and 6 in my primary seat.

After I put away all the miscellaneous pieces and attached the faceplate, I sat down to give a listen to some music and see what had changed. The first thing I noticed is that two subs are better than one. It just seems to even out the bass (equal pressure in each ear) better. Next I noticed that my mids were clearer, more open. I threw in the Mudbone - Fresh Mud CD which is a high quality recording with excellent bass. This one really shined as the vocals and instruments separated and created a surround effect while the bass line kept pumping. For music, I give the AS-EQ1 two thumbs up.

Next I moved on to movies. I noticed that the impact didn't seem as great as before when I was just using the Ultra. I can't say that I heard more bass frequencies as I had the Ultra pretty well tuned in the first place. My favorite test is the space craft landing and explosion in Star Wars Episode 2. The pounding on my chest was less than I've experienced before. On a positive note, when hopping from seat to seat, the difference in bass was undetectable by me. It appears that the AS-EQ1 does the job of getting bass right at more than one position. So for movies, the jury is still out.

My graphs are below. (I think. This is my first time trying this.) To me, it looks like I started out in pretty good conditon.

[Lordoftherings]

Hi Charlie,

This is astonishingly a perfect result!

You must be very happy with the Sound too.

Bob

[Ed Mullen]

CharlieU wrote:

I bought the AS-EQ1 so I could bring my PC+ 20-39, which has been loafing hooked up to my computer, down to my HT setup to join my PC 13 Ultra. I'm using a 16Hz tune on the PC+ and 15Hz tune on the Ultra. My receiver is a Pioneer SC-07.

Since all my gear is squeezed into a pretty compact area, I knew this process was going to be a nightmare. I was right, but I still stuck to it moving the connection around making sure all my speakers were at 75db. After the level matching, it was a piece of cake. Move the tripod, click the button. I did 10 positions, 2 in each outboard seat and 6 in my primary seat.

After I put away all the miscellaneous pieces and attached the faceplate, I sat down to give a listen to some music and see what had changed. The first thing I noticed is that two subs are better than one. It just seems to even out the bass (equal pressure in each ear) better. Next I noticed that my mids were clearer, more open. I threw in the Mudbone - Fresh Mud CD which is a high quality recording with excellent bass. This one really shined as the vocals and instruments separated and created a surround effect while the bass line kept pumping. For music, I give the AS-EQ1 two thumbs up.

Next I moved on to movies. I noticed that the impact didn't seem as great as before when I was just using the Ultra. I can't say that I heard more bass frequencies as I had the Ultra pretty well tuned in the first place. My favorite test is the space craft landing and explosion in Star Wars Episode 2. The pounding on my chest was less than I've experienced before. On a positive note, when hopping from seat to seat, the difference in bass was undetectable by me. It appears that the AS-EQ1 does the job of getting bass right at more than one position. So for movies, the jury is still out.

My graphs are below. (I think. This is my first time trying this.) To me, it looks like I started out in pretty good conditon.

I assume the 20-39 PC-Plus and the PC13-Ultra are non-colocated?

If it's not too much trouble, place the two subwoofers side-by-side, set the phase to 0 on both, individually calibrate them to the same SPL using a bass test tone, and then play the test tone with both subs running. I want to make sure the two subs have the same absolute polarity before further troubleshooting your perceived loss of impact.

It could also be that the AS-EQ1 simply scrubbed off a peak in the 25-40 Hz region and the bass response is now more accurate than before (albeit with less artificial slam/impact), but let's address the subwoofer polarity issue first.

[Ed Mullen]

Patrick Nevin wrote:

Well I have a flat response from 100 to about 20hz. I did have a few problems like forgetting to plug in the USB to the computer to the ASEQ1 and turning on the auto calibration assistant. I noticed when i was in the YPAO to see the sub filters and it had 1 filter so i reset it to flat. I couldn't use the 0db pink noise but i did get the speaker and sub to read 75db. I used 7 positions which are all from my chair. It said to have my sub distance at 16 feet and to have the trim at -.5. I put the speaker from large to 80 hz. After that i took out the rat shack meter and use the pink noise from my receiver to set all of my speakers including the presence to 75db and the sub to 73db to account for the of the meter on bass. The main volume on the receiver for reference is -5. Bass is MUCH improved. There was no ringing and i can feel the bass more in the chest which is awesome. How hot is the ASEQ1 supposed to get because when i went to turn it off after a couple of hours of use it was hot. I don't want to ruin it because it is too hot. I can move to the top of the subwoofer so it dose not get hot. I am tempted to turn the subwoofer to face the room and see what type of response I get. I might try that when I am feeling better. Another question i have is the way I figure out how to figure out the phase with a 80 and 60hz crossover. I use a cd with those frequencies and i use the suboofer phase in the Yammie gui. i play the 80hz tone with the rat shack meter at my listening position. The sub has the phase at 0 so I have to have the phase in the receiver at reverse. When I do the 60 hz crossover it is normal phase. Do I need to do this with the ASEQ1?

Thanks
Patrick

In my experience, the AS-EQ1 runs quite cool - I've had one idling in my office for days and it's cool to the touch. It is designed to be left on for extended periods of time without harm.

The phase control on the subwoofer should be left at 0 when setting up the AS-EQ1. It will provide you with the correct subwoofer distance to input in the AVR, which is a combination of the acoustic distance and the latency of the AS-EQ1 (about 8.5 ms). Your AVR should provide you with the correct loudspeaker distances during the auto-set-up routine.

The time alignment of the speakers and the subwoofer should then be fairly close. Dialing in more phase at the subwoofer plate amp without independently verifying the effect on the FR is not advised.

The speaker/sub crossover formed by your AVR at the selected crossover frequency is comprised of a 2nd order high pass and 4th order low pass. Whether or not this crossover is actually perfectly phase correct for any selected crossover frequency is dependent on the in-room FR of the speaker and subwoofer, but my guess would be not.

This type of AVR crossover network stems from the THX days, where a sealed speaker with an 80 Hz roll-off was specified. The idea was that cascading a 2nd order high pass over the acoustical 2nd order roll-off resulted in a 4th order high pass, which would then match the 4th order low pass of the subwoofer, resulting in a phase-correct crossover. The use of anything but a sealed speaker with an 80 Hz roll-off pretty much upsets the apple cart, and if your speakers are vented with varying F3 points, then your chances of obtaining a perfectly phase-correct crossover with the subwoofer at any given crossover frequency are pretty slim.

So my advice from a practical real-world standpoint is to set all your speaker and subwoofer distances correctly in the AVR, set all your speakers to Small, and then select a crossover frequency (or frequencies if your AVR has the capability to provide individual crossover frequencies for each channel) which protects each speaker from being overdriven in the bass regions.

[JimP]

Ed,

I've got a B&K Ref 50 pre/pro which allows different slopes setting for the mains to match up with the sub. What would you recommend for the PB Ultra 13 if you're only using one of those subs. This is without your equalizer.

[Ed Mullen]

JimP wrote:

Ed,

I've got a B&K Ref 50 pre/pro which allows different slopes setting for the mains to match up with the sub. What would you recommend for the PB Ultra 13 if you're only using one of those subs. This is without your equalizer.

It's your speaker and the intended application (music/movies and playback level) which will dictate the best slopes and crossover to use in the Ref 50. Give us a little background on the rest of your system and we'll take it from there.

[CharlieU]

Ed Mullen wrote:

I assume the 20-39 PC-Plus and the PC13-Ultra are non-colocated?

If it's not too much trouble, place the two subwoofers side-by-side, set the phase to 0 on both, individually calibrate them to the same SPL using a bass test tone, and then play the test tone with both subs running. I want to make sure the two subs have the same absolute polarity before further troubleshooting your perceived loss of impact.

It could also be that the AS-EQ1 simply scrubbed off a peak in the 25-40 Hz region and the bass response is now more accurate than before (albeit with less artificial slam/impact), but let's address the subwoofer polarity issue first.

You are correct, the subs are not colocated. I have them sitting left and right of my monitor. The Ultra is in the same spot as it was pre-AS-EQ1 and the 20-39 is too close to a corner. I wasn't going to make it easy on the AS-EQ1.

The phase on both subs is set to zero. I learned from our previous exchange to never doubt the master, so I followed instructions to a "T".

You may be right about it reducing a peak that gave me the impact before. That's the reason I want to live with this a bit more. I am thrilled with what it did for music and impressed with the way it took care of bass in my non-sweet seats. If it bothers me enough, I'll give your idea a shot. Thanks for the suggestions.

[Ed Mullen]

CharlieU wrote:

You are correct, the subs are not colocated. I have them sitting left and right of my monitor. The Ultra is in the same spot as it was pre-AS-EQ1 and the 20-39 is too close to a corner. I wasn't going to make it easy on the AS-EQ1.

The phase on both subs is set to zero. I learned from our previous exchange to never doubt the master, so I followed instructions to a "T".

You may be right about it reducing a peak that gave me the impact before. That's the reason I want to live with this a bit more. I am thrilled with what it did for music and impressed with the way it took care of bass in my non-sweet seats. If it bothers me enough, I'll give your idea a shot. Thanks for the suggestions.

I would absolutely check the absolute polarity of both subwoofers before attempting to acclimate your ears to the system.

Even if you skip calibrating both subwoofers to the same level, it will still be painfully obvious if they are reverse polarity when placed side-by-side and fed the same rumble tone. The SPL will tank noticeably and they will fight against each other. Conversely, if the SPL jumps noticeably (it would be +6 dB max if the two subs were the same SPL/model/tune), then you are OK and put the PC+ back and carry on.

If they are reverse polarity for some reason, switch the leads on the PC+ woofer, not the Ultra. Contact in TS for the procedure on how to safely remove the woof.

[CharlieU]

Lordoftherings wrote:

Hi Charlie,

This is astonishingly a perfect result!

You must be very happy with the Sound too.

Bob

I was pretty amazed when I looked at the graph considering that I put the 20-39 in a pretty terrible location. The biggest difference is how it cleaned up the overall sound of my system. Everything is clearer now, much more detail in the mid frequencies.

[JimP]

Ed Mullen wrote:

It's your speaker and the intended application (music/movies and playback level) which will dictate the best slopes and crossover to use in the Ref 50. Give us a little background on the rest of your system and we'll take it from there.

Atlantic Technology 8200 system. I'm also using their front mains as side and back surrounds.

[CharlieU]

Ed Mullen wrote:

I would absolutely check the absolute polarity of both subwoofers before attempting to acclimate your ears to the system.

Even if you skip calibrating both subwoofers to the same level, it will still be painfully obvious if they are reverse polarity when placed side-by-side and fed the same rumble tone. The SPL will tank noticeably and they will fight against each other. Conversely, if the SPL jumps noticeably (it would be +6 dB max if the two subs were the same SPL/model/tune), then you are OK and put the PC+ back and carry on.

If they are reverse polarity for some reason, switch the leads on the PC+ woofer, not the Ultra. Contact in TS for the procedure on how to safely remove the woof.

I'll give this a try. Thanks.

[Lordoftherings]

CharlieU wrote:

I was pretty amazed when I looked at the graph considering that I put the 20-39 in a pretty terrible location. The biggest difference is how it cleaned up the overall sound of my system. Everything is clearer now, much more detail in the mid frequencies.

Thanks Charlie for the feedback.

I am following this with great interest, and I'm almost ready to pull the trigger.
At this price and performance, the AS-EQ1 seems to be a no-brainer.
And it is perfect for my two 15" subs.

Regards,

Bob

[Patrick Nevin]

Ed Mullen wrote:

In my experience, the AS-EQ1 runs quite cool - I've had one idling in my office for days and it's cool to the touch. It is designed to be left on for extended periods of time without harm.

The phase control on the subwoofer should be left at 0 when setting up the AS-EQ1. It will provide you with the correct subwoofer distance to input in the AVR, which is a combination of the acoustic distance and the latency of the AS-EQ1 (about 8.5 ms). Your AVR should provide you with the correct loudspeaker distances during the auto-set-up routine.

The time alignment of the speakers and the subwoofer should then be fairly close. Dialing in more phase at the subwoofer plate amp without independently verifying the effect on the FR is not advised.

The speaker/sub crossover formed by your AVR at the selected crossover frequency is comprised of a 2nd order high pass and 4th order low pass. Whether or not this crossover is actually perfectly phase correct for any selected crossover frequency is dependent on the in-room FR of the speaker and subwoofer, but my guess would be not.

This type of AVR crossover network stems from the THX days, where a sealed speaker with an 80 Hz roll-off was specified. The idea was that cascading a 2nd order high pass over the acoustical 2nd order roll-off resulted in a 4th order high pass, which would then match the 4th order low pass of the subwoofer, resulting in a phase-correct crossover. The use of anything but a sealed speaker with an 80 Hz roll-off pretty much upsets the apple cart, and if your speakers are vented with varying F3 points, then your chances of obtaining a perfectly phase-correct crossover with the subwoofer at any given crossover frequency are pretty slim.

So my advice from a practical real-world standpoint is to set all your speaker and subwoofer distances correctly in the AVR, set all your speakers to Small, and then select a crossover frequency (or frequencies if your AVR has the capability to provide individual crossover frequencies for each channel) which protects each speaker from being overdriven in the bass regions.

Ed,

The ASEQ1 is running much cooler now. Also I said that I am running the sub at 16 feet away and that is because the software said to set it at 16.3 feet. Should I set the sub at 16 and a half feet away. Thanks for the crossover information.

Thanks
Patrick

[Lordoftherings]

Patrick Nevin wrote:

Ed,

The ASEQ1 is running much cooler now. Also I said that I am running the sub at 16 feet away and that is because the software said to set it at 16.3 feet. Should I set the sub at 16 and a half feet away. Thanks for the crossover information.

Thanks
Patrick

This is very impressive Patrick. The distance is dead on, because you have to take into consideration that the actual distance from your sub, start from the voice coil of the driver.
When you measure the distance from a big driver like a sub, you always add about 4 inches more to take account of the distance from the baffle of the driver to the dust cap and even the voice coil. If you can set it at 16.3 feet, it is right on target. If not, 16.5 feet should be fine too, when you take into consideration the distance from your two ears to the center of your head. And a sub with a 15" or 18" driver, you can add and additional inch or so.
I think that Ed will be able to confirm this.

So, it is exactly accurate! Quite amazing indeed.

Bob

[Patrick Nevin]

Lordoftherings wrote:

This is very impressive Patrick. The distance is dead on, because you have to take in consideration that the actual distance from your sub start from the voice coil of the driver.
When you measure the distance from a big driver like a sub, you always add about 4 inches more to take account of the distance from the baffle of the driver to the dust cap and even the voice coil.

So, it is exactly accurate! Quite amazing indeed.

Bob

Yes Bob it is really amazing. I just have to figure out how to post my results on here. Any ideas?

Thanks
Patrick

[Patrick Nevin]

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